Nathan Horton ("Career could be over")

KallioWeHardlyKnewYe

Hey! We won!
May 30, 2003
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Ideally, I'd love to see Horton healthy and playing. He's a player I've always liked and was happy when Columbus brought him in despite the term.
This seems unlikely now. He was always dogged by injuries, but this seems bad.

This is a cold way to think about it, but isn't it ultimately for the best from a CBJ perspective if his career is done?
Insurance foots most, if not all the bill (I forget exactly how much) and he doesn't count against the cap. Right?

Sounds like no harm no foul to me business wise. What is seen as a bad contract and a potential burden down the road is significantly lessened if not eliminated completely.
 

IHeartZherdev*

Guest
Ideally, I'd love to see Horton healthy and playing. He's a player I've always liked and was happy when Columbus brought him in despite the term.
This seems unlikely now. He was always dogged by injuries, but this seems bad.

This is a cold way to think about it, but isn't it ultimately for the best from a CBJ perspective if his career is done?
Insurance foots most, if not all the bill (I forget exactly how much) and he doesn't count against the cap. Right?

Sounds like no harm no foul to me business wise. What is seen as a bad contract and a potential burden down the road is significantly lessened if not eliminated completely.

I don't think there is any way to chalk up a disastrous long term contract and free agent bust as "no harm, no foul"
 

BF3

Boom Roasted.
Dec 30, 2011
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Cbus
I don't think there is any way to chalk up a disastrous long term contract and free agent bust as "no harm, no foul"

If it doesn't count against the cap and they aren't paying him the cash, it's as close as it's going to get.
 

KallioWeHardlyKnewYe

Hey! We won!
May 30, 2003
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I don't think there is any way to chalk up a disastrous long term contract and free agent bust as "no harm, no foul"

Don't be silly. It isn't a "disastrours long term contract" if insurance pays it and it doesn't impact the cap. Surely you can do that math.

And sure, Horton could easily be called a bust if you just look at just him, but realistically, has having him on the CBJ hurt? Made the playoffs in his first season and look ok so far this year.
He's been fairly irrelevant overall, positive or negative.

Oh wait, here comes the "We would've gotten Marquee Free Agent X this offseason if we didn't have Horton" argument ....
 

Crede777

Deputized
Dec 16, 2009
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The positives: We have ownership who is willing to spend on players. A big name guy is willing to sign here after being in Boston.

I mean, it could be worse...
 

blahblah

Registered User
Nov 24, 2005
21,327
972
I don't think there is any way to chalk up a disastrous long term contract and free agent bust as "no harm, no foul"

The Flyers and Boston have been getting around their issues for years now. Obviously it isn't that huge of a deal. Biggest issue would be if the Jackets and Horton kept trying a comeback and the Jackets couldn't plan around him not being in the lineup.
 

IHeartZherdev*

Guest
I believe you've gotten that confused with "existing negative predisposition to those in the FO" argument.

It has nothing to do with the front office. Signing a soon to be a 30-year-old player with an extensive injury/concussion history to a 7 year deal is a huge risk. I'm not against risk taking, the team did need another top 6 forward, but this risk failed massively. Horton was ineffective even when he did play last year, and probably deserved to be scratched over Cam at times.

My boy Howson made moves that failed and the current best GM in the league, Jim Nill, has also made some bad moves (Gonch) ... that comes with the territory, no GM is immune.
 

Cyclones Rock

Registered User
Jun 12, 2008
10,913
7,076
It's odd reading on this board that the Horton debacle is a "no harm no foul" situation.

More than a few on this board were extremely concerned about the financial ramifications of a long term deal for Johansen due to possible "regression" and being stuck with a bad long term deal. There was also great concern about the cost to the CBJ of an amnesty buyout for the (fortunately) departed RJ Umberger.

Umberger would have cost $10.34 million to buyout (2/3 of his $4.5 million./year 3 year deal). There would have been no cap hit due to the amnesty buyout provisions which were available at that time.

Johansen would have been very moveable at no cap hit either assuming he didn't "regress" to a 35 point scorer-which stood essentially a zero percent chance of happening.

The financial implication of the Horton deal is approximately this:

Last year, Horton was paid $5.7 million. His productivity could have matched by a $1.7 million player and I'm being generous. Cost of the mistake last year can be reasonably placed at about $4 million.

For the next 6 years, the Jackets will have to pay approximately 25% of his salary. **This is the percentage I have heard and seems to be a reasonable co pay, if you will** While there is no cap hit, it's cash out the door.

This comes to $1.425 million per year which totals $8.55 million over the next six years.

Total cost of the blunder $12.55 million. More than an RJ Umberger buyout would have cost. Hardly no harm.

While it would be unfair to state that it was predictable that Horton would be a 100% disaster and done before year 2 of his 7 year $5.7 million per year deal kicked in, it's perfectly fair to state that he was known to have a bum shoulder, concussion issues, and now it appears, that it was known that his back wasn't 100%.

Jarmo Kekalainen and John Davidson rolled the dice on an injury riddled player and they came up snake eyes. Big Time. It comes at enormous cost to the team-$12.5 million or so-assuming that Horton is finished. If he's not done, he will probably be a greatly diminished player and the cost will be greater. It can't be dismissed and forgotten. It's a valid black mark on their resumes and shouldn't be casually swept under the rug. It doesn't mean "fire them" but it does mean remember.

You can bet that the next big dollar UFA who comes to Columbus will have a medical history that is almost pristine. The pendulum will probably swing way too far to the other side as the current management will be suffering from a severe case of the "once bitten; twice shy" syndrome. This could potentially also harm the franchise in addition to the financial costs of the Horton blunder.
 
Last edited:

LetsGOJackets!!

Registered User
Mar 23, 2004
4,799
1,151
Columbus Ohio
Hockey is a brutal sport..

some guys are not going to be able to make it, Modin Juice and now Horton come quickly to mind.

I didn't read the thread or the article because I want to remain optimistic that Horton can come back from this, & be the player that was in the past.

LALALALALALA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't say it!!!!!!LALALALALALA:help:
 

Crede777

Deputized
Dec 16, 2009
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Horton and Johansen are completely different situations.

Horton is an ESTABLISHED player with a strong track record and postseason success. His current injuries were absolutely NOT in any way predictable and the front office cannot be held accountable for them. To have anticipated these issues would have required knowledge of the future.

Johansen, meanwhile, is NOT established. Trying to draw inferences from a single data point is just plain silly.

It's all about body of work. Johansen had only been in the league 3 years, during which 2 were major formative years where he had limited offensive output. Guys who are in the league for such a short time, barring extraordinary production, do not deserve long term high dollar contracts. Established veterans such as Horton do. That's how the league is set up -- RFA's are cheap labor whose payment is less than their output while older UFA's are expensive labor whose payment often exceeds their output.

In this league, you get paid for what you have done, not what you are about to do. Potential doesn't carry leverage or a dollar cost, production over a period of time does.
 

KallioWeHardlyKnewYe

Hey! We won!
May 30, 2003
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It's odd reading on this board that the Horton debacle is a "no harm no foul" situation.

More than a few on this board were extremely concerned about the financial ramifications of a long term deal for Johansen due to possible "regression" and being stuck with a bad long term deal. There was also great concern about the cost to the CBJ of an amnesty buyout for the (fortunately) departed RJ Umberger.

Umberger would have cost $10.34 million to buyout (2/3 of his $4.5 million./year 3 year deal). There would have been no cap hit due to the amnesty buyout provisions which were available at that time.

Johansen would have been very moveable at no cap hit either assuming he didn't "regress" to a 35 point scorer-which stood essentially a zero percent chance of happening.

The financial implication of the Horton deal is approximately this:

Last year, Horton was paid $5.7 million. His productivity could have matched by a $1.7 million player and I'm being generous. Cost of the mistake last year can be reasonably placed at about $4 million.

For the next 6 years, the Jackets will have to pay approximately 25% of his salary. **This is the percentage I have heard and seems to be a reasonable co pay, if you will** While there is no cap hit, it's cash out the door.

This comes to $1.425 million per year which totals $8.55 million over the next six years.

Total cost of the blunder $12.55 million. More than an RJ Umberger buyout would have cost. Hardly no harm.

While it would be unfair to state that it was predictable that Horton would be a 100% disaster and done before year 2 of his 7 year $5.7 million per year deal kicked in, it's perfectly fair to state that he was known to have a bum shoulder, concussion issues, and now it appears, that it was known that his back wasn't 100%.

Jarmo Kekalainen and John Davidson rolled the dice on an injury riddled player and they came up snake eyes. Big Time. It comes at enormous cost to the team-$12.5 million or so-assuming that Horton is finished. If he's not done, he will probably be a greatly diminished player and the cost will be greater. It can't be dismissed and forgotten. It's a valid black mark on their resumes and shouldn't be casually swept under the rug. It doesn't mean "fire them" but it does mean remember.

You can bet that the next big dollar UFA who comes to Columbus will have a medical history that is almost pristine. The pendulum will probably swing way too far to the other side as the current management will be suffering from a severe case of the "once bitten; twice shy" syndrome. This could potentially also harm the franchise in addition to the financial costs of the Horton blunder.

Thanks for the well-thought response. I have a couple of counters.

First, thank you for putting some figures to a possible insurance pay out. I don't know how it works other than knowing it takes a big chunk of the pay. I'll trust your figures are close and/or right.

Using your figures, they're looking at $8.55 million due from the CBJ to Horton over the next six years or $1.42 million a year. That also doesn't count toward the cap, which is not an insignificant point versus a traditional buyout or having Horton continuing to try to play and not stay healthy.

But, you are right, that is real money. It isn't nothing, but at the same time, it isn't an amount that should handcuff ownership in any significant way. Frankly, if it is, then this organization has much bigger concerns long term than Nathan Horton.

As for the time Horton has put in -- he has been disappointing, but honestly how has he really harmed the CBJ? Say Horton was at 100 percent and played all or most of last year, what was the ceiling for that team?
Maybe they get a little higher seed and maybe they make the 2nd round?
Maybe.
But I'm not confident in that. It isn't implausible that the Jackets would've wound up bounced from the 1st round all the same.

I think a healthy Horton makes this team better, but not by much. I think an unhealthy Horton hasn't really hurt the on-ice product.

So while maybe "no harm" is an oversimplification on my part, surely reasonable people can agree that the scenario in play now is at the very least significantly less harm?

If this comes to pass, the Horton signing, while definitely a mistake, isn't going to be NEARLY as big a mistake as many want it to be.
 
Nov 13, 2006
11,558
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Ohio
Don't be silly. It isn't a "disastrours long term contract" if insurance pays it and it doesn't impact the cap. Surely you can do that math.

And sure, Horton could easily be called a bust if you just look at just him, but realistically, has having him on the CBJ hurt? Made the playoffs in his first season and look ok so far this year.
He's been fairly irrelevant overall, positive or negative.

Oh wait, here comes the "We would've gotten Marquee Free Agent X this offseason if we didn't have Horton" argument ....


Your damn right. If it wasn't for the Horton deal the CBJ could have signed David Clarkson!
 

Cyclones Rock

Registered User
Jun 12, 2008
10,913
7,076
Thanks for the well-thought response. I have a couple of counters.

First, thank you for putting some figures to a possible insurance pay out. I don't know how it works other than knowing it takes a big chunk of the pay. I'll trust your figures are close and/or right.

Using your figures, they're looking at $8.55 million due from the CBJ to Horton over the next six years or $1.42 million a year. That also doesn't count toward the cap, which is not an insignificant point versus a traditional buyout or having Horton continuing to try to play and not stay healthy.

But, you are right, that is real money. It isn't nothing, but at the same time, it isn't an amount that should handcuff ownership in any significant way. Frankly, if it is, then this organization has much bigger concerns long term than Nathan Horton.

As for the time Horton has put in -- he has been disappointing, but honestly how has he really harmed the CBJ? Say Horton was at 100 percent and played all or most of last year, what was the ceiling for that team?
Maybe they get a little higher seed and maybe they make the 2nd round?
Maybe.
But I'm not confident in that. It isn't implausible that the Jackets would've wound up bounced from the 1st round all the same.

I think a healthy Horton makes this team better, but not by much. I think an unhealthy Horton hasn't really hurt the on-ice product.

So while maybe "no harm" is an oversimplification on my part, surely reasonable people can agree that the scenario in play now is at the very least significantly less harm?

If this comes to pass, the Horton signing, while definitely a mistake, isn't going to be NEARLY as big a mistake as many want it to be.

If the end cost is $8 million over 6 years to the CBJ, then it hardly is a backbreaker. Agreed.

Last season was going to be at best a half season of a healthy Horton. That was known from the start. So, the damage for last season was, more or less, factored in from the beginning. Had he started this season in good physical shape, I don't think anyone would have objected to just calling his first year a write off and just moving on from there.

If Horton isn't finished and comes back as a diminished player and his $5.7 million is on the books for 6 more years, then it really gets ugly for both him and the Jackets.

I hope the guy gets his health back and can play out his contract at a level commensurate with what he was with Boston. Maybe he sits out this year and can come back. Who knows?

It's still premature to really get a complete picture of this situation. It may be quite some time before the situation clarifies itself. I wouldn't expect Horton to hang it up for good until he had exhausted all possible avenues of recovery. And that, rightfully, may take some time. Several years possibly.
 

KallioWeHardlyKnewYe

Hey! We won!
May 30, 2003
15,771
3,808
If Horton isn't finished and comes back as a diminished player and his $5.7 million is on the books for 6 more years, then it really gets ugly for both him and the Jackets.

I hope the guy gets his health back and can play out his contract at a level commensurate with what he was with Boston. Maybe he sits out this year and can come back. Who knows?

It's still premature to really get a complete picture of this situation. It may be quite some time before the situation clarifies itself. I wouldn't expect Horton to hang it up for good until he had exhausted all possible avenues of recovery. And that, rightfully, may take some time. Several years possibly.

Agree with you on all points.
 

Nordique

Add smoked meat, and we have a deal.
Aug 11, 2005
9,138
265
Ohio
It has nothing to do with the front office. Signing a soon to be a 30-year-old player with an extensive injury/concussion history to a 7 year deal is a huge risk. I'm not against risk taking, the team did need another top 6 forward, but this risk failed massively. Horton was ineffective even when he did play last year, and probably deserved to be scratched over Cam at times.

My boy Howson made moves that failed and the current best GM in the league, Jim Nill, has also made some bad moves (Gonch) ... that comes with the territory, no GM is immune.

This.

Believe me, if we weren't playing well, the Horton issue would be brought up more often. 7 years is just foolish.
 

EspenK

Registered User
Sep 25, 2011
15,842
4,445
This.

Believe me, if we weren't playing well, the Horton issue would be brought up more often. 7 years is just foolish.

Let's assume a pretty decent UFA wants to come to Columbus. He wants 37.5 million. Would you rather pay him 7.5 for 5 years or spread it out creatively for 7 years? Either way you pay him the 37.5. One way you have a cap hit of 7.5; the other you have an AAV of 5.35. And if you have to buy him out for years 6&7 you can save a few dollars.

In that case 7 years isn't foolish; 7 years at 7.5 per-now that would be foolish.
 

BF3

Boom Roasted.
Dec 30, 2011
1,595
117
Cbus
This.

Believe me, if we weren't playing well, the Horton issue would be brought up more often. 7 years is just foolish.

Someone was going to give him 7 years - it was a prerequisite to negotiations more or less, unless we wanted to offer him a much higher AAV.

If his career was ending due to concussions that would be one thing, but this is a degenerative back condition, which to my knowledge, was not anything that was brought up before the signing. I don't think you can equate the two.
 

Ar-too

Zealous Scrub
Jan 8, 2004
11,108
15
Columbus, OH
Anyone who thinks this deal was obviously terrible at the time of the signing should go back and read the thread. Nobody was concerned about his back. People were concerned about his shoulder and the potential fallout of another concussion. NOBODY was worried about his back.

I say that only to say that it's easy to look at it now and question the wisdom of the deal at the time. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that jazz...
 

CalBuckeyeRob

Registered User
Feb 25, 2012
573
310
While $12 million spread out over 5+ years is real money to regular folks, in the universe of professional sports ownership and the expenses that go with it, it is a nominal figure. The "damage" from injuries in a salary cap world is that you lose the cap space. But if that is not an issue here because of a career ending injury, then there has only really been damage for the missed opportunity last season and this season to push the money somewhere else. By next year the team can take the bucket of money they were paying Horton and pay it to someone else, hopefully with better results.
 

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