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N.H.L. - The Sponsorship Era

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From page 146, The NHL - D'arcy Jenish, some interesting data about the 1955-56 NHL teams and the junior teams they sponsored. From the January 5, 1956 NHL GM meetings in Montreal.

Sponsorship of junior teams:

Montreal - 13 teams.
New York and Detroit - 7 teams plus 1 partial.
Boston and Chicago - 6 teams
Toronto - 5 teams

Total of 45 teams, 24 in Ontario, 12 out west, 9 in Quebec.

This would mean that in the mid 1950s there would be app 90+ Memorial Cup eligible teams across Canada.

Not sure how the data is to be interpreted. Few examples. The New York Rangers sponsored a junior team in the City of Montreal - the Hochelaga Biltmores via their sponsorship of the Guelph Biltmores.

Also the Montreal Junior Canadiens or Hull-Ottawa Junior Canadiens used to sponsor their feeder junior teams in eastern Ontario, the Ottawa District and other parts of Quebec. this would run upwards of 8 or 9 teams before we even started counting teams in other parts of Canada beyond the régions mentioned. Also the Marlies sponsored their feeder junior teams.

Contributions appreciated.
 
Interesting. Ive skimmed that book, dont recall seeing the teams they sponsored actually listed, broken down. There was as you know some changes made through the era of Amateur & Jr. Club Sponsorships, some teams dropped, some just partial affiliations & so on. Toronto in the year detailed there, 5 Teams, that would have been the Toronto Marlboroughs X's 2, Juniors & Seniors; St Mikes Majors Jr A & St Mikes Buzzers Jr B; the Markham Waxers which was the Jr.B feeder team to the Jr A Marlies. Additionally, they sponsored in part teams in the Maritimes, Northern Ontario & Manitoba, at various times in Saskatchewan & Alberta though distantly & if the prospect looked good they'd move them to Toronto & assign them to either St.Mikes or to Markham/Marlies depending on age, education, religious denomination & so on & so forth. They also lent their name to the Toronto Marlborough amateur organization that had AAA teams from like Atom to Juvenile. The Marlie Pee Wee's for example sponsored for a long time by Shopsys', annual threats at the Quebec Tournament, many of the players coming up through that organization then going through the ranks of Markham or St.Mikes & so on. So ya, they were going after the best of each age group from very young ages, then grooming them, moving them along through Pee Wee, Bantam, Midget...
 
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Marlies

Interesting. Ive skimmed that book, dont recall seeing the teams they sponsored actually listed, broken down. There was as you know some changes made through the era of Amateur & Jr. Club Sponsorships, some teams dropped, some just partial affiliations & so on. Toronto in the year detailed there, 5 Teams, that would have been the Toronto Marlboroughs X's 2, Juniors & Seniors; St Mikes Majors Jr A & St Mikes Buzzers Jr B; the Markham Waxers which was the Jr.B feeder team to the Jr A Marlies. Additionally, they sponsored in part teams in the Maritimes, Northern Ontario & Manitoba, at various times in Saskatchewan & Alberta though distantly & if the prospect looked good they'd move them to Toronto & assign them to either St.Mikes or to Markham/Marlies depending on age, education, religious denomination & so on & so forth. They also lent their name to the Toronto Marlborough amateur organization that had AAA teams from like Atom to Juvenile. The Marlie Pee Wee's for example sponsored for a long time by Shopsys', annual threats at the Quebec Tournament, many of the players coming up through that organization then going through the ranks of Markham or St.Mikes & so on. So ya, they were going after the best of each age group from very young ages, then grooming them, moving them along through Pee Wee, Bantam, Midget...

Leafs were involved in Rouyn-Noranda - Keon. Also they used to have great contacts in the Montréal Catholic High Schools hence to St. Mike's or the Marlies.
 
Leafs were involved in Rouyn-Noranda - Keon. Also they used to have great contacts in the Montréal Catholic High Schools hence to St. Mike's or the Marlies.

Ya, serious Bird Dogs all over the North, Timmins, Rouyn-Noranda as you mention. Generally if the prospect was Catholic theyd be assigned to St.Mikes, given a "Scholarship" but not all were actually Catholic that wound up at St.Mikes. If Protestant, theyd be assigned to the Marlies, seasoned either with Markham or in some cases with the Midget or Juvenile AAA Marlies, billeted if not from Toronto of course. Real throwback stuff to Old Toronto (and Montreal for that matter), of Smythe & Selke Sr.'s childhood era at the dawning of the 20th Century that extended into the 60's until St.Mikes withdrew from Jr.A participation altogether. A class system and one of religious divides. The Catholic Church itself through their networks a key & critical factor in the development of players, the identification & nurturing of talent. From basic infrastructure (rinks) to the establishment of leagues, admin, Coaching & Scouting for the pro's.
 
Howie Harvey

Ya, serious Bird Dogs all over the North, Timmins, Rouyn-Noranda as you mention. Generally if the prospect was Catholic theyd be assigned to St.Mikes, given a "Scholarship" but not all were actually Catholic that wound up at St.Mikes. If Protestant, theyd be assigned to the Marlies, seasoned either with Markham or in some cases with the Midget or Juvenile AAA Marlies, billeted if not from Toronto of course. Real throwback stuff to Old Toronto (and Montreal for that matter), of Smythe & Selke Sr.'s childhood era at the dawning of the 20th Century that extended into the 60's until St.Mikes withdrew from Jr.A participation altogether. A class system and one of religious divides. The Catholic Church itself through their networks a key & critical factor in the development of players, the identification & nurturing of talent. From basic infrastructure (rinks) to the establishment of leagues, admin, Coaching & Scouting for the pro's.

Howie Harvey went to St. Mike's:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0040291947.html

His brother Doug to West Hill a protestant school.

School's were not bound by residency rules.
 
I see Howie had played for the Montreal Royals QSHL Team the year before he went to St.Mikes. I dont know the backstory on that one.

After some digging:

Howie Harvey played for the Montreal Junior Royals together with Doug Harvey in 1944-1945, but his NHL rights were held by the Toronto Maple Leafs (Source). In 1945 he attended was expected to attend St. Michael's College "under the watchful eye of the Maple Leafs" (Source, below right, "Rumor has it etc"), but instead he stayed at West Hill High School for another year. In January 1946, "the kid from junior ranks" was brought in by the Montreal Royals (QSHL) to stand in for Gerry McNeil who was recovering from an appendectomy (Source). He returned to the junior circuit once McNeil was able to play again.[/QUOTE]
 
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^^^ Aha. Thanks Theo.... Howie was destined for an NHL career having won a Memorial Cup with St.Mikes however he developed a skin rash caused by his equipment, like beyond uncomfortable, skin swelling up, barely able to play so he had to quit. There was an Urban Myth, story that he'd quit as during a Training Camp for the Leafs he'd witnessed goalie Baz Bastien taking a shot to the face that took his eye clean out... sickening Howie to the point that he purportedly skated to the bench, leaned his stick against the wall, took off his gloves, undid his pads & quit then & there... How that story got started, no idea... Bastien was with Toronto's farm team at that time, the Pittsburgh Hornets, and while yes, he did lose an eye like that it wasnt why Howie Harvey quit and in fact pretty much guaranteed him the starting job in Pittsburgh, one notch below the NHL.
 
This is one area where the SIHR player database blows every other online source out of the water.

Howie Harvey played for Montreal West Hill High School in 42/43, 43/44, 44/45 and 45/46 (career record 10-0-1). At the same time he played with the Junior Royals in 43/44, 44/45 and 45/46 (record 17-6-2), also spending some time with the senior royals (record of 9-6-0). Then one season with St. Mike's (27-3-0 and a Memorial Cup championship) and then two seasons with the OHA senior Marlboros in Toronto (career record 45-23-6).

He then retired from hockey due a persistent skin rash as Killion noted.
 
This is one area where the SIHR player database blows every other online source out of the water.... He then retired from hockey due a persistent skin rash as Killion noted.

Indeed.... And I believe it was some dogged detective work by a member of the SIHR that put to rest that fable about Howie Harvey quitting the game after supposedly witnessing Baz Bastien lose his eyeball. No idea how such things get started but once they do, life of their own.
 
Indeed.... And I believe it was some dogged detective work by a member of the SIHR that put to rest that fable about Howie Harvey quitting the game after supposedly witnessing Baz Bastien lose his eyeball. No idea how such things get started but once they do, life of their own.
Hockey "history" is filled with such stories, and as you say, once they're established they're bloody difficult to correct. The Canadiens buying the QSHL to get Beliveau, for example.
 
Sponsorship

After some digging:

Howie Harvey played for the Montreal Junior Royals together with Doug Harvey in 1944-1945, but his NHL rights were held by the Toronto Maple Leafs (Source). In 1945 he attended St. Michael's College "under the watchful eye of the Maple Leafs" (Source, below right, "Rumor has it etc"). In January 1946 however, "the kid from junior ranks" was brought in by the Montreal Royals (QSHL) to stand in for Gerry McNeil who was recovering from an appendectomy (Source). He returned to the junior circuit once McNeil was able to play again.

Howie Harvey is an interesting study since his career coincides the start of the Junior sponsorship era - post WWI.

A few distinctions. NHL teams sponsored junior teams but they had affiliations with Senior and minor proteams, post 1945.

Junior teams could sponsor lower level junior teams.

Rights to a player were possible as early as junior, earlier later on.

Residency rules were a central issue. This is a rather complex situation as it tended to vary from age group to age group. Still does.

In the 1940s it was possible for players whose "NHL Rights" belong to different NHL teams to play on the same junior team.It was also possible to play on a junior team without the NHL Rights belonging to any NHL team.

Schools icing hockey teams were not subject to residency rules. So Howie Harvey, a Montreal resident could have signed an agreement giving his NHL Rights to the Toronto Maple Leafs but the Leafs could not place him(residency rules) on their sponsored junior teams the Marlies but they could enroll him in St. Michael's College that iced their sponsored Leaf team in the same junior league as the Marlies.
 
From the September 14, 1945 edition of the Montréal Gazette where an explanation is available of the relationship between the NHL and the Québec Senior league, the Howie Harvey situation - negotiating list and the move of Fleming Mackell to St. Mike's to play hockey.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=FK8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_5gFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=6123,2383142

Side note: The links confirms the SIHR info presented by Iain above. My claim that Howie Harvey attended St. Michael's in 1945 was wrong, the source I linked only says he was expected to do that. As the link above shows he actually returned to West Hill High School for another year before finally moving on to St. Michael's in 1946.
 
Going to bump old thread because I´m interested when this Sponshorship era ended? In other words when did the C-Form system died? There are mixed information about this. Some say in 1968 some in 1969.

Mainly I´m interested because I´m mapping Euro players exploits in North-America and this is one of the interesting ones.

The Montreal Gazette - Sep 14, 1968
Two youngsters from Finland - Jormo Aro, an 18-year-old defenceman, and Sakarki Ahlberg, an 18-year-old right wing - are trying out with Kitchener Rangers of the Junior OHA. Last winter Emile Francis, general manager of the New York Rangers, who spnsor the junior team said they were interested in a couple of youthful Finnish players.

Sakari Ahlberg eventually did play half of the season (68-69) in Rangers. He was send to Sudbury Wolves at some point. Did he have to commit himself to NY Rangers to play in Kitchener that season?
 
Definition

Going to bump old thread because I´m interested when this Sponshorship era ended? In other words when did the C-Form system died? There are mixed information about this. Some say in 1968 some in 1969.

Mainly I´m interested because I´m mapping Euro players exploits in North-America and this is one of the interesting ones.

The Montreal Gazette - Sep 14, 1968


Sakari Ahlberg eventually did play half of the season (68-69) in Rangers. He was send to Sudbury Wolves at some point. Did he have to commit himself to NY Rangers to play in Kitchener that season?

Depends on how you defines ended.

The 1963 NHL Amateur draft started the process that led to the end of the C-Form but it did not end the C-Form.

Europeans were not C-Form eligible as far as I know in the 1968-69 season but to move within junior hockey in Canada they did sign away certain rights.

To play on an NHL sponsored junior team, the player did not have to be bound to the parent NHL team in any fashion.

Example 1966 NHL Amateur Draft Jude Drouin:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/draft/NHL_1966_amateur.html

Drouin played for Verdun, part of the Canadiens junior sponsorship web. But the Canadiens had to draft him to get his rights. He was not bound to them by a C-Form.

By the fall of 1969 all the C-Form juniors should have seen the junior eligibility expire

On the other hand players like Serge Savard, Carol Vadnais, Jacques Lemaire, Yvan Cournoyer that had signed C-Forms were bound by them throughout their career, unless like J.C.Tremblay they opted to sign with a rival league when the contract expired with the arrival of the WHA.
 
Hockey "history" is filled with such stories, and as you say, once they're established they're bloody difficult to correct. The Canadiens buying the QSHL to get Beliveau, for example.

Did the Canadians get any other useful NHL talent pulling that stunt?...

The issue I have always had with that nonsense was the Canadians basically forced Beliveau's hand....

I think someone said it best in another thread this nonsense was indentured servitude..
 
Did the Canadians get any other useful NHL talent pulling that stunt?...

The issue I have always had with that nonsense was the Canadians basically forced Beliveau's hand....

You realize the poster you're replying to states "that stunt" did not actually happen, it's something like an historical urban myth?
 
Did the Canadians get any other useful NHL talent pulling that stunt?...

The issue I have always had with that nonsense was the Canadians basically forced Beliveau's hand....

I think someone said it best in another thread this nonsense was indentured servitude..

QSHL wasnt bought by the Habs. Beliveau signed a B-form with the Habs with the requirement that he would join the team whenever he turned pro. QSHL became a professional league due to a dispute with CAHA. It was a fallout of the Ron Atwell incident.
 
Going to bump old thread because I´m interested when this Sponshorship era ended? In other words when did the C-Form system died? There are mixed information about this. Some say in 1968 some in 1969.

Mixed info about this because you're asking about two different things. Sponsorship and C-forms were not one and the same.

NHL teams had sponsored junior clubs, and through their affiliations with AHL and WHL teams that had sponsored junior clubs of their own, had effective control over hundreds of Canadian amateur players. If you were a player playing for a sponsored junior club you were on the NHL team's "sponsorship list", the list of sponsored junior players. If you were on an NHL team's sponsorship list they held your playing rights (pro and de facto amateur) until you finished your junior eligibility (turned 20): they could assign you to another sponsored team within their system if they wanted to, and you were barred from playing for another CAHA-affiliated amateur club without the sponsoring team's permission.

The C-form (and the A- and B-forms) was a contract option agreement. The C-form was the most onerous on player's rights: it was not a pro playing contract but bound a player to sign a pro deal at pre-determined compensation levels depending on if they were assigned to the NHL, AHL or WHL, or QHL/EPHL/CPHL. If you were a player who signed a C-form you were obligated to show up for the NHL team's training camp, you were obligated to sign a pro deal with them at the stipulated terms when you turned pro, and the team could hypothetically keep renewing this option every year in perpetuity if they paid you a yearly renewal fee. The catch was that the NHL club had to put a player signed to an A-, B- or C-form agreement on their reserve list, which included players under actual pro contracts. They couldn't just fill their reserve lists with an infinite number of players signed to option agreements. Sponsored players did not have to sign C-forms.

NHL sponsorship lists were frozen in '66. No new players could be added to sponsorship lists after this, but the sponsorship lists still existed. The '66 Amateur Draft was still limited to junior players not on sponsorship lists (and who hadn't signed C-forms), as the '63, '64 and '65 drafts were before it, but because of the trimmed and frozen sponsorship lists a group of previously sponsored players was available in '66.

To play on an NHL sponsored junior team, the player did not have to be bound to the parent NHL team in any fashion.

Example 1966 NHL Amateur Draft Jude Drouin:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/draft/NHL_1966_amateur.html

Drouin played for Verdun, part of the Canadiens junior sponsorship web. But the Canadiens had to draft him to get his rights. He was not bound to them by a C-Form.

Jude Drouin was available for selection in the '66 draft because he had been dropped from the Canadiens' sponsorship list. Several of the players selected in '66 were dropped from sponsorship lists. Barry Gibbs, taken 1st overall, was a Bruins prospect in the first place playing in Estevan. He was picked by the Bruins because they wanted to keep him. Brad Park, 2nd overall, was a Maple Leafs prospect; the Rangers picked him. It was a huge steal in retrospect but keep in mind Brad Park was only 17 years old at the time, had only played a single year of Junior A with the Marlboros as their fifth or sixth defenceman.

By the fall of 1969 all the C-Form juniors should have seen the junior eligibility expire

No new C-forms (and A- and B-forms) could be signed after May 1, 1968. C-forms could still be renewed after that, they just couldn't sign new ones.

On the other hand players like Serge Savard, Carol Vadnais, Jacques Lemaire, Yvan Cournoyer that had signed C-Forms were bound by them throughout their career, unless like J.C.Tremblay they opted to sign with a rival league when the contract expired with the arrival of the WHA.

Savard, Vadnais and Lemaire were sponsored players who turned pro in '66. Cournoyer turned pro in '64. They weren't bound to the Canadiens because of C-forms, they were bound to the Canadiens because of the reserve clause in their standard pro contracts. All of them were. Tremblay defied his contract's reserve clause when he signed with the Nordiques.




By 1969 most of the previously sponsored junior players had "come of age" (turned 20), and comparatively few C-forms were left. This is why the '69 draft was said to be the first "universal" one: it was the first time that there was a substantial number of good junior players eligible to be drafted. The last sponsored players and C-forms came off the books in '70.

Sakari Ahlberg eventually did play half of the season (68-69) in Rangers. He was send to Sudbury Wolves at some point. Did he have to commit himself to NY Rangers to play in Kitchener that season?

No, Ahlberg did not have to commit himself to the NY Rangers to play in Kitchener. Sponsorship lists were frozen in '66 as I said above, and in '68 outright direct sponsorship of the actual clubs ended. Kitchener Rangers operator Eugene George still would have had a pretty good working relationship with Emile Francis though. Getting Aro and Ahlberg to try out with Kitchener would have required hashing out some details between with the Finnish Ice Hockey Association and CAHA, which Francis may have facilitated.
 
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QSHL wasnt bought by the Habs. Beliveau signed a B-form with the Habs with the requirement that he would join the team whenever he turned pro. QSHL became a professional league due to a dispute with CAHA. It was a fallout of the Ron Atwell incident.

I don't know what to believe about that at this point... I put it in the bucket with Oilers fans saying Gretzky was sold and not traded and Habs fans insisting the Habs didn't have exclusive access to all the best players pre-draft era...
 
I don't know what to believe about that at this point... I put it in the bucket with Oilers fans saying Gretzky was sold and not traded and Habs fans insisting the Habs didn't have exclusive access to all the best players pre-draft era...

Its not really a secret.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=tcAtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lZkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=7112,4851025&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TjArAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mJkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=7240,1102267&hl=en

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TzArAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mJkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=7218,1391121&hl=en
 
Mixed info about this because you're asking about two different things. Sponsorship and C-forms were not one and the same.

NHL teams had sponsored junior clubs, and through their affiliations with AHL and WHL teams that had sponsored junior clubs of their own, had effective control over hundreds of Canadian amateur players. If you were a player playing for a sponsored junior club you were on the NHL team's "sponsorship list", the list of sponsored junior players. If you were on an NHL team's sponsorship list they held your playing rights (pro and de facto amateur) until you finished your junior eligibility (turned 20): they could assign you to another sponsored team within their system if they wanted to, and you were barred from playing for another CAHA-affiliated amateur club without the sponsoring team's permission.

The C-form (and the A- and B-forms) was a contract option agreement. The C-form was the most onerous on player's rights: it was not a pro playing contract but bound a player to sign a pro deal at pre-determined compensation levels depending on if they were assigned to the NHL, AHL or WHL, or QHL/EPHL/CPHL. If you were a player who signed a C-form you were obligated to show up for the NHL team's training camp, you were obligated to sign a pro deal with them at the stipulated terms when you turned pro, and the team could hypothetically keep renewing this option every year in perpetuity if they paid you a yearly renewal fee. The catch was that the NHL club had to put a player signed to an A-, B- or C-form agreement on their reserve list, which included players under actual pro contracts. They couldn't just fill their reserve lists with an infinite number of players signed to option agreements. Sponsored players did not have to sign C-forms.

NHL sponsorship lists were frozen in '66. No new players could be added to sponsorship lists after this, but the sponsorship lists still existed. The '66 Amateur Draft was still limited to junior players not on sponsorship lists (and who hadn't signed C-forms), as the '63, '64 and '65 drafts were before it, but because of the trimmed and frozen sponsorship lists a group of previously sponsored players was available in '66.



Jude Drouin was available for selection in the '66 draft because he had been dropped from the Canadiens' sponsorship list. Several of the players selected in '66 were dropped from sponsorship lists. Barry Gibbs, taken 1st overall, was a Bruins prospect in the first place playing in Estevan. He was picked by the Bruins because they wanted to keep him. Brad Park, 2nd overall, was a Maple Leafs prospect; the Rangers picked him. It was a huge steal in retrospect but keep in mind Brad Park was only 17 years old at the time, had only played a single year of Junior A with the Marlboros as their fifth or sixth defenceman.



No new C-forms (and A- and B-forms) could be signed after May 1, 1968. C-forms could still be renewed after that, they just couldn't sign new ones.



Savard, Vadnais and Lemaire were sponsored players who turned pro in '66. Cournoyer turned pro in '64. They weren't bound to the Canadiens because of C-forms, they were bound to the Canadiens because of the reserve clause in their standard pro contracts. All of them were. Tremblay defied his contract's reserve clause when he signed with the Nordiques.




By 1969 most of the previously sponsored junior players had "come of age" (turned 20), and comparatively few C-forms were left. This is why the '69 draft was said to be the first "universal" one: it was the first time that there was a substantial number of good junior players eligible to be drafted. The last sponsored players and C-forms came off the books in '70.



No, Ahlberg did not have to commit himself to the NY Rangers to play in Kitchener. Sponsorship lists were frozen in '66 as I said above, and in '68 outright direct sponsorship of the actual clubs ended. Kitchener Rangers operator Eugene George still would have had a pretty good working relationship with Emile Francis though. Getting Aro and Ahlberg to try out with Kitchener would have required hashing out some details between with the Finnish Ice Hockey Association and CAHA, which Francis may have facilitated.

Thanks for the detailed and thorough explanation, very interesting.
 
Mixed info about this because you're asking about two different things. Sponsorship and C-forms were not one and the same....

Thank you very much! :) Yes it turns out that I have had few misconception about the C-Form and Sponsorhip list.
 
Ron Attwell

QSHL wasnt bought by the Habs. Beliveau signed a B-form with the Habs with the requirement that he would join the team whenever he turned pro. QSHL became a professional league due to a dispute with CAHA. It was a fallout of the Ron Atwell incident.

Ron Attwell was a junior and the conséquences impacted junior hockey and eventually lead to the Canadiens straddling the Québec - Ontario border with the Hull -Ottawa Junior Canadiens.
 

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