Muzzin vs. Hickey.

[Whiskeypete]

he had a very good OFFENSIVE night, but the past few games he has had some defensive lapses. there were two goals the other night that he lost coverage on his man that lead to two goals. he still has much to learn, but he is looking good. i like his aggressive reads that J Fox has been taking note of during the games. as with most young D it is the 50-50 reads that are the tough ones to make.

i would like to see them sit Ellerby for a game or two and get DD44 back in. why? Keaton has been making some erratic and at times very bad reads on his outlet passes, that lead to LA getting trapped in their zone. i think it just comes down to better understanding tendencies of his teammates. without having practice to work on this, he is learning during the games. can't remember if it was last night, or the night before but he made an awful read. his outlet went one way and the rest of the team flowed the opposite direction. i think it would do him some good to sit and watch the system and players first hand

 

[losingsand]

I agree with whiskey about sitting Ellerby for DD44

we were outmatched in front of the net with tips, and i believe Davis has the edge positionally and smarts when it comes to the stay at home aspect of D. With Greene and Mitchell out, and Sutter losing confidence in Drew Doughty in PK situations, it's important to have Drewiske holding down the fort on the PK.

I'm fine with letting Muzzin get comfortable and get some minutes, he's contributing and the positives outweight the negatives in my opinion. Right now Ellerby still doesn't seem confident and we NEED front of the net help bad. St. Louis exposed that so we need someone who's more ept at taking care of the front of the net.

Part of the reason why i think Bernier has been outplaying Quick this year is to the fact that we don't have greene or mitchell cleaning up the mess in front. Bernier's style is more economical and safe, and requires less of his D-men to clean up after him. Quick plays a high risk style and that works if you have D-studs like Greene and Mitchell in front of him.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Should we forget all the previous 20 games now ?

He has a nice 2 game streak and even then there were some things to whine about. I dont expect games like yesterday on a regular base, that would be unfair. Less sloppy, more mistake free would be great though. We'll see how his play continues.

 

[Primakov!]

I would have kept Hickey over Drewiske, but Dean has a real Stanley cup ring and I just have a replica.

I don't think Drewiske brings anything long term for the Kings.

Long-term, probably not.

Though I think you have to give him some credit for playing well when they threw him on the ice. For example, on the penalty kill he was blocking shots and clearing pucks very effectively.

Towards the end there before he got benched, he was starting to get enough confidence to try taking some aggressive shots on net from the between the circles rather than the patented Scuderi Halfboard Dump-ins. Though to an extent I think he became a victim of some overconfidence in his own play in the offensive zone and exceeded his skill set.

If my memory isn't failing me he started taking chances where he'd skate in too deep or have his shots blocked, which led to him being out of position defensively. Defensively irresponsible plays are just going to get Sutter's goat so when Drewiske gets his next chance he's probably going to want to go back to keeping it simple.

Like how that old hockey saying goes: "A crusher who becomes a rusher soon becomes an usher."

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Hickey doing well in NYI was almost a given considering the opportunity provided there and the type of system not only they play but at large within the east. Care to notice how all of these prospects we send packing to the east coast go on the put up impressive individual numbers on non-playoff teams? Purcell, Moulson, and now Hickey are all doing well sitting shotgun to the real talent on non playoff squads. Color me unimpressed.

Muzzin has been great. The next question is whether or not he sustains this play, what kind of ceiling does he hit, and whether or not he eventually makes Martinez expendable. Think of what happened with Johnson and Voynov.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's unfortunate how the entire thing played out with Hickey, especially with how Greene started the season with the Kings and went out very early on in the season. The Kings really had no choice but to waive Hickey at the time, or waive Muzzin.

Hickey's game is similar to that of Martinez, maybe a bit more assertive physically (which is why he was always hurt in the past), so I could see where the organization felt that it would be redundant to have a couple of defensemen on the roster who are average to below average in size. With Mitchell out, it kind of made sense to have Muzzin up.

Given the struggles of Drewiske and Muzzin's play of late, the Kings made the right decision in not waiving Muzzin. It's the damn waiver rules that cost the Kings to lose Hickey, but that's how the rules are. I'd probably rather have Hickey over Ellerby, but the trade with Florida came after the Kings lost three of their top six.

With Drewiske likely to be leaving as a UFA over the summer, I wouldn't mind seeing Ellerby stick as a 7th/8th dman. But I guess the Kings have to wait and see what happens with their blueline with Scuderi being an impending free agent and the return of Mitchell and Greene being uncertain.

 

[kingsfan]

Who is Hickey riding shotgun with? His D partners this year have mostly been Carkner and Finley. He's succeeding in spite of those guys, not because of them.

 

[kingsfan]

It's unfortunate how the entire thing played out with Hickey, especially with how Greene started the season with the Kings and went out very early on in the season. The Kings really had no choice but to waive Hickey at the time, or waive Muzzin.

I didn't agree at the time, and I still don't. I know it's standard for teams to carry one extra D and two extra forwards, but that's not a set in stone rule. I'd have rather they waived Richardson and kept Hickey. Extra D-men are worth something, even if it's just a depth draft pick, and I still doubt Richardson would have been claimed with that salary and lack of playing time or production.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I didn't agree at the time, and I still don't. I know it's standard for teams to carry one extra D and two extra forwards, but that's not a set in stone rule. I'd have rather they waived Richardson and kept Hickey. Extra D-men are worth something, even if it's just a depth draft pick, and I still doubt Richardson would have been claimed with that salary and lack of playing time or production.

I agree with that move. Richardson is pretty worthless to the team. He's sparsely used, but I guess they prefer having a more experienced and seasoned 13th forward to insert into the lineup over an inexperienced skater.

However, in order for the team to not waive Hickey, they would have had to carry 9 defensemen. Remember, they started the season with Doughty, Scuderi, Martinez, Voynov, Greene, Drewiske, Muzzin all on the roster with Mitchell apparently cleared to at the very least resume practice. The team may have felt that Mitchell was going to be ready to play sooner rather than later.

 

[kingsfan]

I agree with that move. Richardson is pretty worthless to the team. He's sparsely used, but I guess they prefer having a more experienced and seasoned 13th forward to insert into the lineup over an inexperienced skater.

However, in order for the team to not waive Hickey, they would have had to carry 9 defensemen. Remember, they started the season with Doughty, Scuderi, Martinez, Voynov, Greene, Drewiske, Muzzin all on the roster with Mitchell apparently cleared to at the very least resume practice. The team may have felt that Mitchell was going to be ready to play sooner rather than later.

I agree Hickey had to be moved, I just didn't agree with moving him at that very moment. I suggested holding him for a few weeks, just long enough for Mitchell to come back (which should have happened at the time) and for other teams to see if they need another D-man. The reason we couldn't get anything at the time was because teams didn't know what even they had, nevermind trading for someone else. Likely the same issue with Loktionov, only we could keep him on the farm without waiving him. After training camps were done and teams had a chance to play a few games they could see if they had any holes or if any injuries occurred. I just didn't think it'd be us that had the injury woes forcing a trade for a D-man.

 

[Asheru]

I didn't know you could close a case after 29 career games.

This is the same guy who was on thin ice before Martinez was injured, right? Right.

There are going to be up and downs, just like with any young defenseman who's developing. Let's enjoy this but not get too carried away.

As Sutter would say, what's he going to get done the next game?

 

[kingsfan]

I didn't know you could close a case after 29 career games.

You shouldn't, but this isn't the first time. See Moulson.

 

[KingLB]

I didn't agree at the time, and I still don't. I know it's standard for teams to carry one extra D and two extra forwards, but that's not a set in stone rule. I'd have rather they waived Richardson and kept Hickey. Extra D-men are worth something, even if it's just a depth draft pick, and I still doubt Richardson would have been claimed with that salary and lack of playing time or production.

Apparently not, since he was waived.

 

[kingsfan]

Apparently not, since he was waived.

Maybe read through the rest of the thread and you'd see I posted this:

I agree Hickey had to be moved, I just didn't agree with moving him at that very moment. I suggested holding him for a few weeks, just long enough for Mitchell to come back (which should have happened at the time) and for other teams to see if they need another D-man. The reason we couldn't get anything at the time was because teams didn't know what even they had, nevermind trading for someone else. Likely the same issue with Loktionov, only we could keep him on the farm without waiving him. After training camps were done and teams had a chance to play a few games they could see if they had any holes or if any injuries occurred. I just didn't think it'd be us that had the injury woes forcing a trade for a D-man.

Timing has as much to do with what you can get as anything. Of course we couldn't get anything in the middle of camps, a few days before the roster cut off. A few games into the season though, and maybe someone would have needed him. Such as us apparently.

 

[etherialone]

Should we forget all the previous 20 games now ?

He has a nice 2 game streak and even then there were some things to whine about. I dont expect games like yesterday on a regular base, that would be unfair. Less sloppy, more mistake free would be great though. We'll see how his play continues.

Last 20 games? He has played in 18 games during this his rookie season.


Muzzin ranks 3rd among all NHL rookie D in scoring with 7.
He ranks 2nd among all rookie D men in +/- with +6.

Here are the stats of Muzzin's last 7 games. I chose to start here because this is where/when he began seeing a significant increase in his ice time. To me he is doing very well for a guy who projects to be a 4/6 dman who can skate pretty well, play a little physically and pitch in on O from time to time.

MAR 5 '13 STL @ LAK 2 1 3 2 23:06
MAR 4 '13 NSH @ LAK 0 0 0 1 18:11
MAR 2 '13 LAK @ VAN 0 1 1 0 22:43
FEB 27 '13 DET @ LAK 0 0 0 1 19:11
FEB 25 '13 ANA @ LAK 1 0 1 0 20:53
FEB 23 '13 COL @ LAK 0 0 0 1 19:15
FEB 20 '13 LAK @ CGY 0 0 0 -1 18:05

He is a rookie and rookie's, especially D rookies are prone to making mistakes as they learn their way in the NHL. Should we expect Muzzin to play like he was a veteran or had played more than 28 games over 2 NHL seasons or should we except him for what he is.

Muzzin is proving he not only belongs in the NHL but with proper guidance he can become a solid 4/6 dman on an excellent team and that is enough for me.

By the way, here are Muzzins last 20 games.


MAR 5 '13 STL @ LAK 2 1 3 2 23:06
MAR 4 '13 NSH @ LAK 0 0 0 1 18:11
MAR 2 '13 LAK @ VAN 0 1 1 0 22:43
FEB 27 '13 DET @ LAK 0 0 0 0 19:11
FEB 25 '13 ANA @ LAK 1 0 1 0 20:53
FEB 23 '13 COL @ LAK 0 0 0 1 19:15
FEB 20 '13 LAK @ CGY 0 0 0 -1 18:05
FEB 19 '13 LAK @ EDM 0 0 0 0 16:05
FEB 17 '13 LAK @ CHI 0 0 0 0 15:49
FEB 15 '13 CBJ @ LAK 0 0 0 0 15:49
FEB 7 '13 LAK @ NSH 0 0 0 0 15:45
FEB 5 '13 LAK @ CBJ 0 0 0 0 9:49
FEB 2 '13 LAK @ ANA 0 0 0 -1 12:21
JAN 31 '13 NSH @ LAK 0 0 0 0 15:58
JAN 28 '13 VAN @ LAK 0 0 0 0 13:56
JAN 26 '13 LAK @ PHX 1 1 2 4 11:57
JAN 24 '13 LAK @ EDM 0 0 0 0 7:51
JAN 22 '13 LAK @ COL 0 0 0 0 15:23
NOV 17 '10 CBJ @ LAK 0 0 0 -1 9:06
NOV 13 '10 NYI @ LAK 0 0 0 0 16:14

That makes him +5 over his past 20 games with 7 points instead of +6 with 7 points. Still better than average for NHL rookie Dmen who have proven that they have NHL skillsets and that they belong in the NHL.

Nobody has come in and said that Muzzin is the next Orr or Coffey or Stevens or Robinson or anyone else. Only that he (JM) is doing pretty well while being forced to come in and help replace two highly thought of established veteran NHL Dmen.

He makes his mistakes but he has proven that he belongs out there and is doing a good job. He is a rookie and projects to be a 4/6dman so at his best his upside is as a third pairing Dman who can play up if needed and become a solid addition to an NHL team.

Finally there is one more telling stat for rookie Dmen and that is penalty minutes. Muzzin has a total of 6 penalty minutes in 28 NHL games. If he were struggling so mightily at his position he would more than likely be raking up the penalty minutes as that is what tends to happen to dmen when they are struggling.

Muzzin is doing just fine, he has a way to go but he is doing fine.

 

[KingLB]

Maybe read through the rest of the thread and you'd see I posted this:



Timing has as much to do with what you can get as anything. Of course we couldn't get anything in the middle of camps, a few days before the roster cut off. A few games into the season though, and maybe someone would have needed him. Such as us apparently.

Except value isn't developed that quickly and he would have never have been Greene's replacement. Never.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Last 20 games? He has played in 18 games during this his rookie season.


Muzzin ranks 3rd among all NHL rookie D in scoring with 7.
He ranks 2nd among all rookie D men in +/- with +6.

Here are the stats of Muzzin's last 7 games. I chose to start here because this is where/when he began seeing a significant increase in his ice time. To me he is doing very well for a guy who projects to be a 4/6 dman who can skate pretty well, play a little physically and pitch in on O from time to time.

MAR 5 '13 STL @ LAK 2 1 3 2 23:06
MAR 4 '13 NSH @ LAK 0 0 0 1 18:11
MAR 2 '13 LAK @ VAN 0 1 1 0 22:43
FEB 27 '13 DET @ LAK 0 0 0 1 19:11
FEB 25 '13 ANA @ LAK 1 0 1 0 20:53
FEB 23 '13 COL @ LAK 0 0 0 1 19:15
FEB 20 '13 LAK @ CGY 0 0 0 -1 18:05

He is a rookie and rookie's, especially D rookies are prone to making mistakes as they learn their way in the NHL. Should we expect Muzzin to play like he was a veteran or had played more than 28 games over 2 NHL seasons or should we except him for what he is.

Muzzin is proving he not only belongs in the NHL but with proper guidance he can become a solid 4/6 dman on an excellent team and that is enough for me.

By the way, here are Muzzins last 20 games.


MAR 5 '13 STL @ LAK 2 1 3 2 23:06
MAR 4 '13 NSH @ LAK 0 0 0 1 18:11
MAR 2 '13 LAK @ VAN 0 1 1 0 22:43
FEB 27 '13 DET @ LAK 0 0 0 0 19:11
FEB 25 '13 ANA @ LAK 1 0 1 0 20:53
FEB 23 '13 COL @ LAK 0 0 0 1 19:15
FEB 20 '13 LAK @ CGY 0 0 0 -1 18:05
FEB 19 '13 LAK @ EDM 0 0 0 0 16:05
FEB 17 '13 LAK @ CHI 0 0 0 0 15:49
FEB 15 '13 CBJ @ LAK 0 0 0 0 15:49
FEB 7 '13 LAK @ NSH 0 0 0 0 15:45
FEB 5 '13 LAK @ CBJ 0 0 0 0 9:49
FEB 2 '13 LAK @ ANA 0 0 0 -1 12:21
JAN 31 '13 NSH @ LAK 0 0 0 0 15:58
JAN 28 '13 VAN @ LAK 0 0 0 0 13:56
JAN 26 '13 LAK @ PHX 1 1 2 4 11:57
JAN 24 '13 LAK @ EDM 0 0 0 0 7:51
JAN 22 '13 LAK @ COL 0 0 0 0 15:23
NOV 17 '10 CBJ @ LAK 0 0 0 -1 9:06
NOV 13 '10 NYI @ LAK 0 0 0 0 16:14

That makes him +5 over his past 20 games with 7 points instead of +6 with 7 points. Still better than average for NHL rookie Dmen who have proven that they have NHL skillsets and that they belong in the NHL.

Nobody has come in and said that Muzzin is the next Orr or Coffey or Stevens or Robinson or anyone else. Only that he (JM) is doing pretty well while being forced to come in and help replace two highly thought of established veteran NHL Dmen.

He makes his mistakes but he has proven that he belongs out there and is doing a good job. He is a rookie and projects to be a 4/6dman so at his best his upside is as a third pairing Dman who can play up if needed and become a solid addition to an NHL team.

Finally there is one more telling stat for rookie Dmen and that is penalty minutes. Muzzin has a total of 6 penalty minutes in 28 NHL games. If he were struggling so mightily at his position he would more than likely be raking up the penalty minutes as that is what tends to happen to dmen when they are struggling.

Muzzin is doing just fine, he has a way to go but he is doing fine.

When I wrote that down, I was thinking, shall I look it up. It's somewhere around 20 games but who cares about that.

I guess I was wrong, you really need to point out that it were 18 games ?

A solid 5/6th defenseman was fine with me too. Like I expected the new Orr. Yes he's a rookie, yes they make mistakes. We dont need to discuss that. Yet not every rookie will ever become a reliable defenseman. You act like every rookie needs some time to adjust and will be fine later on. Heck, you seem to think every good Kings prospect will become a NHL player at one point.

You can come up with all kind of stats of ice-time and +/- but I watch the games. He couldnt even the handle the puck in most games. Didnt use his body (has been better lately). bad positioning, bad defensively. He was absolutely not a reliable 5th/6th defenseman or somewhat close. Muzzin has proved he can have a great game or two and that's about it so far. But again, I dont expect that level of play of him because that's not how I view him. The thing that annoyed me the most is that he's struggling with the puck, a basic hockey skill. All Kings players have entered the offensive zone, time to do some damage, Muffin got the puck, nobody even close to him, puck gone...line change...

 

[kingsfan]

Except value isn't developed that quickly and he would have never have been Greene's replacement. Never.

If you don't think a few injuries can greatly inpact the trade value of even guys like Hickey, we can be done with this discussion. I'd wager Ellerby would be on waivers this season as well if we hadn't had our injuries. And no one has been Greene's replacement effectively.

 

[damacles1156]

Muzzin has always had the tools...He just needs his brain to catch up and stay there.

He looks like it's starting to happen, but consistency is what makes an NHL player.

Teams are not going to let the kid off the hook, it helps a lot that he gets to play with Drew.

I think Muzzin is a better partner with Drew than Ellerby. Drew draws a lot of attention, it leaves Muzzin open to use that heavy shot.


Hickey is the complete opposite ironically. Hickey had the brains, just not all the tools.

Muzzin needs to keep taking the body, keep it up kid.

Edit:

If you guys get a chance , catch some NYI games.

Hickey is fun to watch play, kid is a physical little ******* lol.

 

[damacles1156]

If you don't think a few injuries can greatly inpact the trade value of even guys like Hickey, we can be done with this discussion. I'd wager Ellerby would be on waivers this season as well if we hadn't had our injuries. And no one has been Greene's replacement effectively.

No one has replaced Mitchell or Greene, for as much as people say Stay home Defenders are a dime a dozen....

There are none available. Teams are hoarding them.

 

[etherialone]

When I wrote that down, I was thinking, shall I look it up. It's somewhere around 20 games but who cares about that.

I guess I was wrong, you really need to point out that it were 18 games ?

A solid 5/6th defenseman was fine with me too. Like I expected the new Orr. Yes he's a rookie, yes they make mistakes. We dont need to discuss that. Yet not every rookie will ever become a reliable defenseman. You act like every rookie needs some time to adjust and will be fine later on. Heck, you seem to think every good Kings prospect will become a NHL player at one point.

You can come up with all kind of stats of ice-time and +/- but I watch the games. He couldnt even the handle the puck in most games. Didnt use his body (has been better lately). bad positioning, bad defensively. He was absolutely not a reliable 5th/6th defenseman or somewhat close. Muzzin has proved he can have a great game or two and that's about it so far. But again, I dont expect that level of play of him because that's not how I view him. The thing that annoyed me the most is that he's struggling with the puck, a basic hockey skill. All Kings players have entered the offensive zone, time to do some damage, Muffin got the puck, nobody even close to him, puck gone...line change...

As to your first point it is purely ridiculous. I write about what I see good and bad. I may write less about our lesser prospects but I do write about them. I write more about the prospects that I believe have a shot at making it but then why would I waste my time writing about prospects that I don't put as much stock in?

It appears to me based on these and other comments you have made that you only see the positive reports that I give on our better prospects which is fine but you are completely wrong in saying that I think every good Kings prospect will become an NHL player at one point. All you have to do is look and you will see where you are wrong on that account.


Regarding Muzzin you have said "He (Muzzin) has been a disaster in almost every game so far this season" and "he doesnt belong in the NHL". What I contend is that he is doing what most rookie Dmen do and that is have their ups and downs. I also believe that overall Muzzin is not only doing well enough to prove that he belongs in the NHL but that he is actually doing so at a very high rate of efficiency.

You seem to rely personal opinion alone ("I watch the games") and I have provided stats to support my position. I have said all along that Muzzin is becoming an NHL caliber rookie dman who can develop into a reliable 4/6 player capable of providing some offence as well as a somewhat physical presence. He seems to be doing exactly that so far and the stats bare me out.

While I agree that stats don't show everything they do prove at least a reliable method for determining what a player has accomplished as well as something more than mere conjecture as to what type of player they have the potential to become.

You said that Muzzin doesn't belong in the NHL and I believe that not only does he belong in the NHL but that when you compare him to the rest of the rookie dmen around the entire league that he is right up there among the very best of them.

Not bad for a player who you claim "has been a disaster in almost every game so far this season" and "doesnt belong in the NHL".

All NHL players make mistakes, they are entirely more obvious when they are rookies and Muzzin has made his share of them so far and is going to make more as he develops but he clearly isn't a "disaster" who "doesn't belong in the NHL".

He is a rookie 4/6 dman who so far has done a very solid job in the NHL especially when you consider that he was brought up at a time when the team was struggling due to the loss of two of our veteran D.

In addition I think it is also important to say that we are coached and managed by an exceptionally talented group of people who all seem to disagree with your position regarding Muzzin as evidenced by the amount of confidence they are putting in him.

The funny thing about the whole Muzzin doesn't belong blah blah blah is that I have had to make this exact same argument regarding Amart, King, Nolan, Clifford, Simmonds, Moulson, Hickey, Lewis and others and I am sure I will have to make the same argument again as other players come up and make it in the NHL. Its just funny how it seems to happen all the time.

 

[driller1]

As to your first point it is purely ridiculous. I write about what I see good and bad. I may write less about our lesser prospects but I do write about them. I write more about the prospects that I believe have a shot at making it but then why would I waste my time writing about prospects that I don't put as much stock in?

It appears to me based on these and other comments you have made that you only see the positive reports that I give on our better prospects which is fine but you are completely wrong in saying that I think every good Kings prospect will become an NHL player at one point. All you have to do is look and you will see where you are wrong on that account.


Regarding Muzzin you have said "He (Muzzin) has been a disaster in almost every game so far this season" and "he doesnt belong in the NHL". What I contend is that he is doing what most rookie Dmen do and that is have their ups and downs. I also believe that overall Muzzin is not only doing well enough to prove that he belongs in the NHL but that he is actually doing so at a very high rate of efficiency.

You seem to rely personal opinion alone ("I watch the games") and I have provided stats to support my position. I have said all along that Muzzin is becoming an NHL caliber rookie dman who can develop into a reliable 4/6 player capable of providing some offence as well as a somewhat physical presence. He seems to be doing exactly that so far and the stats bare me out.

While I agree that stats don't show everything they do prove at least a reliable method for determining what a player has accomplished as well as something more than mere conjecture as to what type of player they have the potential to become.

You said that Muzzin doesn't belong in the NHL and I believe that not only does he belong in the NHL but that when you compare him to the rest of the rookie dmen around the entire league that he is right up there among the very best of them.

Not bad for a player who you claim "has been a disaster in almost every game so far this season" and "doesnt belong in the NHL".

All NHL players make mistakes, they are entirely more obvious when they are rookies and Muzzin has made his share of them so far and is going to make more as he develops but he clearly isn't a "disaster" who "doesn't belong in the NHL".

He is a rookie 4/6 dman who so far has done a very solid job in the NHL especially when you consider that he was brought up at a time when the team was struggling due to the loss of two of our veteran D.

In addition I think it is also important to say that we are coached and managed by an exceptionally talented group of people who all seem to disagree with your position regarding Muzzin as evidenced by the amount of confidence they are putting in him.

The funny thing about the whole Muzzin doesn't belong blah blah blah is that I have had to make this exact same argument regarding Amart, King, Nolan, Clifford, Simmonds, Moulson, Hickey, Lewis and others and I am sure I will have to make the same argument again as other players come up and make it in the NHL. Its just funny how it seems to happen all the time.

I appreciate your insights on our prospects. I think sometimes people think our prospects are superstars or busts from day one while neglecting pretty everything else. We've been spoiled with guys like Doughty who break in and immediately make a positive impact. The 4-6 D men are really hard to judge and their development is measured over time, so people make one judgement of a player and never evolve their thinking.