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Muzzin-Doughty

Omni Owl

Omni Owl

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Mar 9, 2008
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Doughty recently mentioned that he and Muzz want to work at being the best pair in the league. I know Doughty already is one of the best, but do you guys think Muzzin could possibly grow into a bona fide #2 D-man? They could be lethal, as both are mobile and physical, but Doughty could probably make just about anyone look good as a partner.
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Muzzin is certainly the de facto #2 dman on the team given the ice time he gets playing with Doughty. In the playoffs he averaged the 2nd most amount of TOI behind Doughty and was put in more situations with Drew, showing more confidence in his game and showing that he had gained the coaching staff's trust.

His ice time in the playoffs actually bumped up by about 4 minutes, which is quite significant. He just needs to continue to improve in reacting faster on the ice. That was his biggest struggle last season, but he progressively got better in the later half of the season and into the playoffs.

So far he's looked pretty solid in the preseason, and I anticipate a lengthy extension for Muzzin that'll keep him and Doughty as the 1-2 D-tandem for the foreseeable future.
 
He has good numbers, so much so that on certain best defensemen lists he's starting to pop up on them.

His defense will improve with time automatically. If he can develop his timing and spot more opportunities to use his MacInnis-like shot, he could be called a top pair d-man.
 
I'd say MacInnis like shot is a slight exaggeration. I tend to view his shooting to that of a Corvo/Modry like shot.

And Muzzin has become the dman the Kings were hoping Jack Johnson would become. Not bad for an unsigned prospect who the Penguins lost the rights to.
 
Rorschach said:
He has good numbers, so much so that on certain best defensemen lists he's starting to pop up on them.

His defense will improve with time automatically. If he can develop his timing and spot more opportunities to use his MacInnis-like shot, he could be called a top pair d-man.
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He did do well enough to win a Cup as a number 2 after all.

As far as a long term goes... I'm not 100% sold... depending on how much the cap goes up next year Lombardi's going to have to makes some decisions.

I could see Muzzin getting a Voynov type deal around 4M for some term... but then you have to take into account what does that do for re-signing Stoll/Williams. Do you have someone that can replace any of those guys, Muzzin/Stoll/Williams....

Then Lombardi likes his Vet warriors, guys like Mitchell/Regehr/Greene. Is Lombardi going to go with Greene as the only D on the roster over 230lbs? If you sign Muzzin around 4M does that leave money to bring a guy like that in?

McNabb.... 650k cap hit... is he more of a Regehr or Muzzin replacement? Would Lombardi be comfortable running BM/VV on the second pairing? He just threw Muzzin on the first and that worked....

Note: Just because I have questions about Muzzin's future in regards to the cap doesn't mean I hate Muzzin. It will be interesting to see how Lombardi handles the situation. That's after the Kings kick the crap out of the rest of the Pacific this year.
 
Trolfoli said:
He did do well enough to win a Cup as a number 2 after all.

As far as a long term goes... I'm not 100% sold... depending on how much the cap goes up next year Lombardi's going to have to makes some decisions.

I could see Muzzin getting a Voynov type deal around 4M for some term... but then you have to take into account what does that do for re-signing Stoll/Williams. Do you have someone that can replace any of those guys, Muzzin/Stoll/Williams....

Then Lombardi likes his Vet warriors, guys like Mitchell/Regehr/Greene. Is Lombardi going to go with Greene as the only D on the roster over 230lbs? If you sign Muzzin around 4M does that leave money to bring a guy like that in?

McNabb.... 650k cap hit... is he more of a Regehr or Muzzin replacement? Would Lombardi be comfortable running BM/VV on the second pairing? He just threw Muzzin on the first and that worked....

Note: Just because I have questions about Muzzin's future in regards to the cap doesn't mean I hate Muzzin. It will be interesting to see how Lombardi handles the situation. That's after the Kings kick the crap out of the rest of the Pacific this year.
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I don't see much change in the roster next season, maybe in 2-3 seasons. Like these players always say, they're a big family. I just think these players enjoy being involved in a winning environment. Hell, look at the contract that Gaborik took with just being with this group for a short period of time.
Dean always surprises us with how he's kept this team together. I see more of that in the future.
 
Scottkmlps said:
I don't see much change in the roster next season, maybe in 2-3 seasons. Like these players always say, they're a big family. I just think these players enjoy being involved in a winning environment. Hell, look at the contract that Gaborik took with just being with this group for a short period of time.
Dean always surprises us with how he's kept this team together. I see more of that in the future.
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No doubt.

I'm looking at a scenario where DL makes a trade at the deadline. Something around a defender to replace Regehr next year would make sense or possibly something to plug a different hole. You can never have enough depth come playoffs. Adding a guy at the deadline has worked for the Kings in the past.

If there is a deadline acquisition, probably likely judging by past years, that player maybe around the 3-4M mark could eat up most of the cap increase for next year. Leaving a choices between some guys getting raises or brought back.

Culture is important to Lombardi, but so is adding guys at the deadline to go for the cup.
 
Muzzin has a really good first pass. He's able to hold onto the puck for a second longer, to allow a passing lane to open up. He's big. He uses his body. His shot is deceptive.

In terms of raw talent, Muzzin is 2nd only to Doughty on the Kings blueline. It's all there, it's just a matter of harnessing it, which especially happened in the playoffs last year.
 
If he plays like he did in the playoffs consistently, there's no question he's a #2. Consistency in brainpower has been the question mark for Muzzin. He has all the raw tools, we just needed him to stop throwing centering passes to St. Louis Blues. I could see them being a fantastic pairing for a really long time, a great two-way pairing, rather than the old stay-at-home with puck-rusher deal.
 
The Muzzin of the 2013 playoffs, where he ended up being a healthy scratch at points, and the Muzzin of the 2014 playoffs were two completely different players.

It's like the Kings suddenly going from Peter Ahola to Alexei Zhitnik.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
The Muzzin of the 2013 playoffs, where he ended up being a healthy scratch at points, and the Muzzin of the 2014 playoffs were two completely different players.

It's like the Kings suddenly going from Peter Ahola to Alexei Zhitnik.
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I think the gap is even bigger than that, lol.

Also he has one of the hardest shots in the NHL but he hit teammates full blast before so he's a bit gun shy still. I would be interested to see him in an AllStar competition.
 
Sutter loves Muzzin. Not to mention he was probably the Kings most consistent defenseman last year. His play was amazing.
 
Where do people feel Muzzin's next contract will be? He seems to have a bit of a competition going with Voynov, kinda reminds me of 2 brothers competing. My guess would be at a 4.25M average cap hit in the range of 4-6 years. Pretty much Voynov money but with a little more for bragging rights.
 
Wait, I thought Muzzin sucked and was destined to always suck.

Did someone on the board flip the group think switch to "Doesn't Suck"?

Doughty will always be the star of this pairing and rightly so, but Muzzin is a partner that other teams just can't ignore in terms of offense and his ability to break the puck out of the zone. Both of these guys have upped their physical games as well.

Hopefully a good pairing for the Kings for many years.
 
Good insights. I can see him getting around 4 million if he keeps up his solid play, maybe more. He's looking like a diamond in the rough, as long as he keeps improving.
 
KINGS17 said:
Wait, I thought Muzzin sucked and was destined to always suck.

Did someone on the board flip the group think switch to "Doesn't Suck"?

Doughty will always be the star of this pairing and rightly so, but Muzzin is a partner that other teams just can't ignore in terms of offense and his ability to break the puck out of the zone. Both of these guys have upped their physical games as well.

Hopefully a good pairing for the Kings for many years.
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Some posters here are mature enough to offer opinions of varying degrees and not stick through a single train of thought; like those who thought Modry stunk, others who thought he was great, and then those who thought he was adequate, when the player could be all 3 of those things at given points in a season or in his career.

Hell, seemed like I was the only one of very few here defending Jack Johnson and he's done pretty well for himself in Columbus, to the point that he's considered a leader there, and Muzzin more or less had similar rough patches as JJ when it came to learning to play a pivotal role on this roster.

Muzzin had a seesaw year, he started off decently, hit a lull, struggled as did the rest of the team, and then improved as the season progressed, again, as the rest of the team.

He's highly efficient when he's on top of his game, and partnering with Doughty enables him to be that perfect parter opposite to Drew, unlike a Regehr who has far too many limitations to his game.

I guess you're not allowed to change opinions on these forums and have to act like those who think they're always right and have skulls that are too thick and dense to come off of their agendas.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
Some posters here are mature enough to offer opinions of varying degrees and not stick through a single train of thought; like those who thought Modry stunk, others who thought he was great, and then those who thought he was adequate, when the player could be all 3 of those things at given points in a season or in his career.

Hell, seemed like I was the only one of very few here defending Jack Johnson and he's done pretty well for himself in Columbus, to the point that he's considered a leader there, and Muzzin more or less had similar rough patches as JJ when it came to learning to play a pivotal role on this roster.

Muzzin had a seesaw year, he started off decently, hit a lull, struggled as did the rest of the team, and then improved as the season progressed, again, as the rest of the team.

He's highly efficient when he's on top of his game, and partnering with Doughty enables him to be that perfect parter opposite to Drew, unlike a Regehr who has far too many limitations to his game.

I guess you're not allowed to change opinions on these forums and have to act like those who think they're always right and have skulls that are too thick and dense to come off of their agendas.
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So true, oh wise one. The mature posters here saw that even though Muzzin did make a boneheaded play from time to time, that he has all the tools necessary to be a good NHL defenseman. Those folks didn't need an agenda or a change of opinion.

But I guess it was cool to type "Muffin!!!" five to ten times in every GDT the first 50 or so games of the season.
 
KINGS17 said:
So true, oh wise one. The mature posters here saw that even though Muzzin did make a boneheaded play from time to time, that he has all the tools necessary to be a good NHL defenseman. Those folks didn't need an agenda or a change of opinion.

But I guess it was cool to type "Muffin!!!" five to ten times in every GDT the first 50 or so games of the season.
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Well, since you're so much more mature than me, I guess my opinion is moot, but I figured it would be a valid concern--on a puck possession team--that a guy who can't eliminate mental brain farts and turnovers might cause issues. I'm as glad as anyone that he did, but the Jack Johnson comparison was a great one--all the tools, no toolbox. Muzzin looked like he may be headed down that path but thankfully to our development team he took a very positive development path. It's not a binary suck/doesn't suck, people have been commenting on Muzzin's growth all along, unless you've been on a vacation you've seen it.
 
Brad Doty said:
Well, since you're so much more mature than me, I guess my opinion is moot, but I figured it would be a valid concern--on a puck possession team--that a guy who can't eliminate mental brain farts and turnovers might cause issues. I'm as glad as anyone that he did, but the Jack Johnson comparison was a great one--all the tools, no toolbox. Muzzin looked like he may be headed down that path but thankfully to our development team he took a very positive development path. It's not a binary suck/doesn't suck, people have been commenting on Muzzin's growth all along, unless you've been on a vacation you've seen it.
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I don't think some people commented on his growth until it became obvious, and those of us that took notice much earlier than that were not surprised.

Muzzin was often blamed for breakdowns in his own zone that were not his fault. It doesn't make your opinion moot. I think some of the posters here that think they are "experts" aren't that expert, that's all, and that comment is not directed at you personally at all.
 
KINGS17 said:
So true, oh wise one. The mature posters here saw that even though Muzzin did make a boneheaded play from time to time, that he has all the tools necessary to be a good NHL defenseman. Those folks didn't need an agenda or a change of opinion.

But I guess it was cool to type "Muffin!!!" five to ten times in every GDT the first 50 or so games of the season.
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Really Muffin bothers you?

Nope... still not sold 100% on Muzzin. I also don't hate Muzzin.

A boneheaded play from time to time.... in the regular season these were pretty much every game... combine that with the Kings inability to buy a goal during that time and it amplified the mistakes. I remember being more shocked when Muzzin got through a game and didn't have a major laps. There were other guys that seemed good for an offensive zone penalty or 2 per game during that time so it's not all on Muzzin.

My biggest problem with Muzzin going forward is his on ice awareness and the way he puts himself in vulnerable positions. The Zucc indecent, any way you look at it, Muzzin had his leg out and that's a good way to get a knee injury. I believe this is why he's drawing so many penalties and makes him high risk for injuries.

As far as a $ value on Muzzin, I work in a world where assigning values doesn't have an emotional attachment. My guess seeing how he competes with Voynov is that Muzzin will be in a similar price range, but will ask for maybe 100k more for bragging rights... I just wanted to see how others felt about that number. Also he has a similar number of RFA/UFA years to Voynov when he signed.

Now the next question... if you are paying Muzzin 4M would you be better off going after a UFA Vet for similar money? That would depend on who's available, if they are better then Muzzin, short term vs long term. Does the team want to add another D for depth in next years playoffs? Also how other people on the team play. If McNabb steps right in and becomes a replacement for Regehr in the first few months then the Kings won't need added depth on the blue line, if McNabb struggles this year and isn't putting it together then the Kings may need to bring someone in. I don't see it as bashing Muzzin, there are just a lot of variables at work here. Asking what is best for the team this year and for the long term isn't necessarily a bad reflection on Muzzin.

The only constant in the world is change. Everything is in a state of flux. Muzzin's game is still rough. He pulled off a cup on a top pairing. If you told me at the start of last season Muzzin was going to be on the top pairing in the playoffs... yeah.... fast forward a year and Muzzin has taken a huge step forward. He still has parts of his game to work on. So as Muzzin's games evloves my opinion of that game evolves as well.
 
KINGS17 said:
I don't think some people commented on his growth until it became obvious, and those of us that took notice much earlier than that were not surprised.
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The question with Muzzin wasn't so much can he eventually put it together as much as can he put it together in the next couple of months in time for the playoffs.
 
KINGS17 said:
I don't think some people commented on his growth until it became obvious, and those of us that took notice much earlier than that were not surprised.

Muzzin was often blamed for breakdowns in his own zone that were not his fault. It doesn't make your opinion moot. I think some of the posters here that think they are "experts" aren't that expert, that's all, and that comment is not directed at you personally at all.
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I can agree with that to an extent, I just don't think it was as black-and-white as you were suggesting. I was definitely on the Muzzin hate bandwagon for a while but less because I didn't think he was capable and more because I thought he was miscast. I remember plenty asking for a trade to get a real #2 for Doughty because we needed some consistency in the big minutes. The guy was a horse down the stretch and in the playoffs, but imo, he still has to prove he can do that consistently over time. That being said, it is what it is, the guy is Doughty's partner for at least the next few years!
 
If you go to 2:35 of this video, you'll see an example of the slow reaction and failure to recognize the vulnerable position he is in when Muzzin was struggling around the midway point of the season.



As already mentioned by others, many were aware of his skill set but it seemed to take a while for his head (and reaction time) to catch up.
 
Brad Doty said:
Well, since you're so much more mature than me, I guess my opinion is moot, but I figured it would be a valid concern--on a puck possession team--that a guy who can't eliminate mental brain farts and turnovers might cause issues. I'm as glad as anyone that he did, but the Jack Johnson comparison was a great one--all the tools, no toolbox. Muzzin looked like he may be headed down that path but thankfully to our development team he took a very positive development path. It's not a binary suck/doesn't suck, people have been commenting on Muzzin's growth all along, unless you've been on a vacation you've seen it.
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Agreed. Love the armchair condescension here.

Muzzin was awful for very long stretches in 2013 and even the beginning of 2014 season. Then he stopped being awful. Pretty easy to change an opinion.

Spouting crap like "I had faith in him all along!" wins you nothing more than a e-backpat. So congrats to Kings17.
 
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