Confirmed Trade: [MTL/NSH] Alexandre Carrier for Justin Barron

[John Mandalorian]

And he wouldn't have in Montreal. Moot point.

Both teams can win their part of the trade.

...ok? Waiting on the both teams part...or is that what makes it moot?

 

[John Mandalorian]

Either way... both teams won here. Canadiens at minimum got an asset that helped get them Hage. And they'll also get a lot of value out of Carriere. Sucks that Baron didn't work out... but that doesn't make it a bad trade, even in retrospect.

The Montreal rebuild is an interesting thing to monitor. I’ve seen people mention Colorado several times for reference. But what elongated Colorados re-set/rebuild was the yoyoing. They’d struggle in odd numbered years but sometimes make the playoffs in even numbered years. With Montreal, it’s more of a consistent slog of picking top 10. That could have benefits. If you ever land a high level 1C, you’ll be in great shape.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Doesn't matter. It was an asset that we leveraged in a great trade for Hage. It was part of the original Lek deal.

If you're going to evaluate a trade, why would you omit something like that? Doesn't make sense.

Hage could turn into a bust so the end result isnt determined. Avs won a cup with lehkonen, thats all it needs for them to massively win this trade.

 

[Ghetto Sangria]

Hage could turn into a bust so the end result isnt determined. Avs won a cup with lehkonen, thats all it needs for them to massively win this trade.

Lehkonen does nothing for us during our rebuild. He would have made it worse by being a great player not in our core’s age window. It was worth trying to get as many assets as possible for him.

It would’ve been a much better trade for us had Barron panned out, but if Hage becomes a big top 6 center, and the assets we got from Lehkonen end up a young Top 6 center + Carrier, we won’t be complaining lol. So for us, the result of this trade is still up in the air, which is fine because we dont need results right away.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Hage could turn into a bust so the end result isnt determined. Avs won a cup with lehkonen, thats all it needs for them to massively win this trade.

It was great for the Avs. They won from their side and thats fine. It doesn’t prevent Montreal from winning as well. It’s not a zero sum game.

The question is whether Montreal won as well. And you’re absolutely right that we don’t know yet. But if I had to redo the trade based on what we know TODAY I would absolutely make that trade.

 

[Treb]

...ok? Waiting on the both teams part...or is that what makes it moot?

When did I say Colorado lost the trade? They got a good player that fit their team very well.

Did I really need to spell that part out for you?

 

[John Mandalorian]

When did I say Colorado lost the trade? They got a good player that fit their team very well.

Did I really need to spell that part out for you?

That wasn’t asked of you. The suggestion was that one team benefited from the trade far more than the other. Yes, he maybe didn’t fit their timeline but that’s a separate issue. And it’s true not all prospects work out but it’s hard not to wonder whether Barron’s lack of progress influenced, say, taking Reinbacher instead of someone else for example. It’s sensible to have multiple lines in the water since not everyone works out but also, if they felt great about Barron do they take someone besides Reinbacher? And if that pick was influenced by Barron’s lack of progress and Reinbacher doesn’t work out, it’s effect has become pervasive

 

[Treb]

That wasn’t asked of you. The suggestion was that one team benefited from the trade far more than the other. Yes, he maybe didn’t fit their timeline but that’s a separate issue. And it’s true not all prospects work out but it’s hard not to wonder whether Barron’s lack of progress influenced, say, taking Reinbacher instead of someone else for example. It’s sensible to have multiple lines in the water since not everyone works out but also, if they felt great about Barron do they take someone besides Reinbacher? And if that pick was influenced by Barron’s lack of progress and Reinbacher doesn’t work out, it’s effect has become pervasive

You are bending yourself in non-euclidean way to attribute things to the Lehkonen trade to make it a loss on Montreal's part.

Reinbacher? Really?

 

[HuGort]

Preds taking a flyer on Barron developing. Nashville got best out of a lot of defense men. They must have good defense coach.

Freeing up caproom also

 

[BHD]

I like the trade for Montreal. Carrier can play tougher minutes while the Habs figure out their defense.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Carrier will never win the Norris, but he's solid

His game yesterday was better than anything Barron ever gave us

 

[GirardSpinorama]

It was great for the Avs. They won from their side and thats fine. It doesn’t prevent Montreal from winning as well. It’s not a zero sum game.

The question is whether Montreal won as well. And you’re absolutely right that we don’t know yet. But if I had to redo the trade based on what we know TODAY I would absolutely make that trade.

I wouldnt. Theres no way anyone would trade Lehkonen for Barron and a second today based on the players performances since the trade.

On the one side, the Avs have already won the trade. On the other side, we can just kick the ball down the road because draft trees can grow for a decade. Not really worth it imo, theres already enough milestones passed to make this a poor trade for one party.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I wouldnt. Theres no way anyone would trade Lehkonen for Barron and a second today based on the players performances since the trade.

On the one side, the Avs have already won the trade. On the other side, we can just kick the ball down the road because draft trees can grow for a decade. Not really worth it imo, theres already enough milestones passed to make this a poor trade for one party.

Not a zero sum game. Not sure how to explain that to you.

 

[Ezpz]

That wasn’t asked of you. The suggestion was that one team benefited from the trade far more than the other. Yes, he maybe didn’t fit their timeline but that’s a separate issue. And it’s true not all prospects work out but it’s hard not to wonder whether Barron’s lack of progress influenced, say, taking Reinbacher instead of someone else for example. It’s sensible to have multiple lines in the water since not everyone works out but also, if they felt great about Barron do they take someone besides Reinbacher? And if that pick was influenced by Barron’s lack of progress and Reinbacher doesn’t work out, it’s effect has become pervasive

Barron was never pencilled to be a top pairing guy at any point in his life. He was expected to be a decent third pairing guy who could possibly be a #4. He couldn't beat out undrafted players and got passed by younger players each season. Xhekaj, Struble, and Hutson all passed him fairly easily.

There's zero chance he had an influence on the Reinbacher pick as it's been stated Michkov picked philly. Even yesterday Friedman went out of his way to reiterate there was no chance of michkov to the Habs because he didn't play ball with anyone except Philly.

Not to mention the fact that Barron performed well in the 22-23 season in both the AHL and NHL. His regression came after the Reinbacher pick.

Rb is projected to be a top pairing shutdown guy. They were never competing for the same role.

 

[JianYang]

I know they got players and no other teams got this advantage. Nowadays my friend they call that unfair and those cups would have a pretty little asterisk beside them. But I’m not here to debate what French Canadian players the habs got. I could care less. I just giggle when they brag about those cups and continue on about my day. Still more cups than my preds no matter how you slice it so I can’t say a thing in all honesty lol. With 32 teams it’s so much harder these days though ffs

Are you talking about that supplemental draft where the Habs had first choice of a Quebec born player?

That draft produced one decent player in it's entire existence (Rejean Houle) because any player worth a damn was already signed to what was called a "C-Form" before those drafts would take place.

That draft is a common myth for producing the pipeline of talent that came through the organization.

 

[JianYang]

The Montreal rebuild is an interesting thing to monitor. I’ve seen people mention Colorado several times for reference. But what elongated Colorados re-set/rebuild was the yoyoing. They’d struggle in odd numbered years but sometimes make the playoffs in even numbered years. With Montreal, it’s more of a consistent slog of picking top 10. That could have benefits. If you ever land a high level 1C, you’ll be in great shape.

It should he noted that they are fairly young in this rebuild process. I would say November 2021 was the day that this rebuild began as it was the day gorton was hired.

What happened is that the Habs made the final in 2021. In that same summer, they fumbled danault and lost him on the ufa market, then Weber and price effectively retired. Yet, the old GM was still doubling down and trading 1st rounders while signing certain ufas to try and hang on.

That GM got sacked a few weeks into the following season. When you have a summer like that where you lose 3 pillars of the organization, the writing should be on the wall as to where the mindset should be shifting.

It is only after gorton was hired that many veterans were being sold off for futures. It also under gorton that there were many changes to the org chart which emphasized drafting and development within the organization.

So effectively, we are talking about 3 years into this project.

 

[Anardil]

I know they got players and no other teams got this advantage. Nowadays my friend they call that unfair and those cups would have a pretty little asterisk beside them. But I’m not here to debate what French Canadian players the habs got. I could care less. I just giggle when they brag about those cups and continue on about my day. Still more cups than my preds no matter how you slice it so I can’t say a thing in all honesty lol. With 32 teams it’s so much harder these days though ffs

Ahhhhhhhh, yet another uninformed Hab hater bringing up the fallacy of the French Canadian rights. Do you even know who they acquired with this draft?

I'll save you the time: Rejean Houle and Marc Tardif. That's it.

The 5 other teams could have obtained any player with the standard contracts that were used back then.

You can sleep a little smarter tonight... You're welcome.

 

[overlords]

I know they got players and no other teams got this advantage. Nowadays my friend they call that unfair and those cups would have a pretty little asterisk beside them. But I’m not here to debate what French Canadian players the habs got. I could care less. I just giggle when they brag about those cups and continue on about my day. Still more cups than my preds no matter how you slice it so I can’t say a thing in all honesty lol. With 32 teams it’s so much harder these days though ffs

Imagine if everyone had this much pride in their own ignorance

 

[Bobby Holik agent]

Carrier will never win the Norris, but he's solid

His game yesterday was better than anything Barron ever gave us

No way,
Barron had some excellent excellent game.
The games he scored against Los-Angeles he was about the best players on ice.

He got rekt by Trouba he ain't fully himself back yet.
He need to assert his Lindros tendency of being caught/destroy & then reggressing because of the turmoil.

 

[pth2]

Hage could turn into a bust so the end result isnt determined. Avs won a cup with lehkonen, thats all it needs for them to massively win this trade.

Well, it means the Avs did great, but that outcome is independent from the result for Montreal. If Barron had turned into a Norris winner, it would be better for Montreal, but the Avs still got a great outcome.
Trades aren't a zero sum game where one team winning means the other team loses.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Barron was never pencilled to be a top pairing guy at any point in his life. He was expected to be a decent third pairing guy who could possibly be a #4. He couldn't beat out undrafted players and got passed by younger players each season. Xhekaj, Struble, and Hutson all passed him fairly easily.

There's zero chance he had an influence on the Reinbacher pick as it's been stated Michkov picked philly. Even yesterday Friedman went out of his way to reiterate there was no chance of michkov to the Habs because he didn't play ball with anyone except Philly.

Not to mention the fact that Barron performed well in the 22-23 season in both the AHL and NHL. His regression came after the Reinbacher pick.

Rb is projected to be a top pairing shutdown guy. They were never competing for the same role.

It seems like you’re rationalizing things in retrospect. Not a mind reader but Colorado had Makar when they drafted him, so you’re safe there about not projecting him as a top pairing D. But he was taken with a 1st so you can probably expect there was some hope he’d be a 2nd pairing. When he was traded, Montreal didn’t have anything close to a Makar. But it kind of seems like a feeble assumption to think they traded Lehkonen for a guy they were hoping would be a 3rd pairing D.

You’re assuming I’m referring to Michkov when I’ve been banging the drum about Montreal needing the high end 1C. That was a F heavy draft, no?

 

[John Mandalorian]

It should he noted that they are fairly young in this rebuild process. I would say November 2021 was the day that this rebuild began as it was the day gorton was hired.

What happened is that the Habs made the final in 2021. In that same summer, they fumbled danault and lost him on the ufa market, then Weber and price effectively retired. Yet, the old GM was still doubling down and trading 1st rounders while signing certain ufas to try and hang on.

That GM got sacked a few weeks into the following season. When you have a summer like that where you lose 3 pillars of the organization, the writing should be on the wall as to where the mindset should be shifting.

It is only after gorton was hired that many veterans were being sold off for futures. It also under gorton that there were many changes to the org chart which emphasized drafting and development within the organization.

So effectively, we are talking about 3 years into this project.

Probably mostly true about Gorton but with some shades of gray. The prior regime acquired Suzuki and Ghoule. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ghoule ends up being Montreal’s best D...certainly I can see him as a core player.

 

[JianYang]

Probably mostly true about Gorton but with some shades of gray. The prior regime acquired Suzuki and Ghoule. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ghoule ends up being Montreal’s best D...certainly I can see him as a core player.

Yeah, that is true about Suzuki, but when you are still going to market to buy guys like toffoli and Hoffman at the time, I think the mindset wasn't exactly on rebuilding. And if that were the case, they definitely still wouldn't be trying to compete with Weber and price in their 30s.

Guhle was their own mid 1st round pick. Whether he is a top pair, I'm not certain. Mid pair guy who kills penalties is a safe bet.

 

[Bouboumaster]

No way,
Barron had some excellent excellent game.
The games he scored against Los-Angeles he was about the best players on ice.

He got rekt by Trouba he ain't fully himself back yet.
He need to assert his Lindros tendency of being caught/destroy & then reggressing because of the turmoil.

Offensively he was mid at best, defensively he was a disaster
Carrier is hands down the better defensive defenseman between the two of them, and offensively, we are covered between Hutson and Matheson

Plus Barron was never going to be part of the core, with Reinbacher and Mailloux coming up sooner rather than later

 

[Ezpz]

It seems like you’re rationalizing things in retrospect. Not a mind reader but Colorado had Makar when they drafted him, so you’re safe there about not projecting him as a top pairing D. But he was taken with a 1st so you can probably expect there was some hope he’d be a 2nd pairing. When he was traded, Montreal didn’t have anything close to a Makar. But it kind of seems like a feeble assumption to think they traded Lehkonen for a guy they were hoping would be a 3rd pairing D.

You’re assuming I’m referring to Michkov when I’ve been banging the drum about Montreal needing the high end 1C. That was a F heavy draft, no?

Do you not realize that Lehkonen was viewed as a third/fourth liner around the league? It was considered a massive overpay from Colorado. Most said we'd be lucky to get a third round pick by itself.

There were no first line talents aside from michkov left when the Habs picked. The forward top end talent were picked 1-4.

You're being intentionally obtuse trying to create a narrative that isn't there.