Proposal: MTL & BOSTON

[ChaoticOrange]

I doubt he'd be Montreal's 4th most productive forward if he didn't have a Pastrnak to play with. His 5v5 on-ice scoring away from Pastrnak was worse than any one of Montreal's middle 6 forwards apart from Laine last season. Even expanding out multiple seasons there's not much reason to think he'd be very productive 5v5 or be a meaningful upgrade on who Montreal has in their pretty lousy middle 6. His value would be defensive, but there are better ways for Montreal to address that.

Montreal is likely willing to move a hell of lot for an actual solution at 2C, but Zacha isn't that. And Montreal's not in a point in their rebuild where trading for incremental improvements of a sub-par group makes any sense. Either pay a lot more for a lot better, pay the same for potentially a lot more but also potentially less, pay less for a gamble (like how Boston acquired Zacha in the first place) or bet on internal improvement. But Zacha is a guy that contending or near contending teams trade for, not teams in Montreal's position.

To say nothing of the fact that Boston and Montreal don't trade with each other.

If Zacha is a guy that plays well with good players, maybe you should... you know... play him with your good players too?

I hate that argument so much. Boston, aside from Pasta/Marchand/Zacha, was a motley crew of third line forwards and AHLers this year. Of course his scoring went down when he was playing with worse players. How well would Slafkovsky, for example, produce with Providence Bruins?

I think what Habs fans would consider "a hell of a lot" and what other fanbases would consider "a hell of a lot" are very different things. If Zacha isn't a guy that you see as a fit for 2C, who is? Keeping in mind they actually need to be available, too.

 

[ON3M4N]

A true players evaluation is much deeper than your points approach. Domi once had a 72 pts season with the Habs but many flaws to his game as a top 2C.

Zacha is not the type we are after when we can just ride with Newhook and Dach. We are looking for a better upgrade than Zacha and it's debatable that Zacha is even a upgrade.

My approach is looking at more than a singular year. The Domi example is awful. Yes, he ONCE had a 72pt season, but his 3 years prior he was playing at a 50pt pace. Was it a shock to that the 3yrs after he fell back to reality and was playing at a 45pt pace? Nope, not for me.

If we want to look at one season. Newhook in his best season was playing at a 50pt pace. Zacha in a down season put up 47 points. Dach has played 70+ games one time in 6yrs and has only cracked 30+ points once. If its not clear to you that Zacha is an upgrade over those guys, then we'll agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Captain Mountain]

If Zacha is a guy that plays well with good players, maybe you should... you know... play him with your good players too?

I hate that argument so much. Boston, aside from Pasta/Marchand/Zacha, was a motley crew of third line forwards and AHLers this year. Of course his scoring went down when he was playing with worse players. How well would Slafkovsky, for example, produce with Providence Bruins?

I think what Habs fans would consider "a hell of a lot" and what other fanbases would consider "a hell of a lot" are very different things. If Zacha isn't a guy that you see as a fit for 2C, who is? Keeping in mind they actually need to be available, too.

Zacha's production away from Pastrnak hasn't been great his entire tenure in Boston, not just this season.

And Montreal's goal would be to get a center who can, you know, lead an effective line that doesn't have the players on the one effective line they have. Demidov will hopefully be a part of that in the next few seasons, but Montreal is still mid-rebuild.

And setting aside the strange comparison of the veteran to the guy who just turned 21, isn't that a more compelling argument against Montreal acquiring a Zacha than anything anyone else in this thread has mentioned? Why would Montreal trade for a 2C who would need to play with their 1C to be effective? Why would Montreal break up their very effective 1st line so that the veteran middle 6 center is most productive. If they were going to do it consistently they have prospects to bet on. The whole point of acquiring a 2C is so they don't have to do that.

Plus, asking if X player "isn't a guy that you see as a fit for 2C, then who is? Keeping in mind they actually need to be available, too." is wild when the player we're discussing isn't explicitly available either. I'm not going to challenge a hypothetical player who might be available without evidence if I can't use a hypothetical player who might be available without evidence. If you have an acceptable list league-wide we can discuss it, but I suspect neither of us cares enough to go through that effort. If I limit myself to just pending UFAs though, I'd rather have Duchene, Tavares, Nelson, Bennett, Suter and Gourde.

 

[wintersej]

Zacha's production away from Pastrnak hasn't been great his entire tenure in Boston, not just this season.

And Montreal's goal would be to get a center who can, you know, lead an effective line that doesn't have the players on the one effective line they have. Demidov will hopefully be a part of that in the next few seasons, but Montreal is still mid-rebuild.

And setting aside the strange comparison of the veteran to the guy who just turned 21, isn't that a more compelling argument against Montreal acquiring a Zacha than anything anyone else in this thread has mentioned? Why would Montreal trade for a 2C who would need to play with their 1C to be effective? Why would Montreal break up their very effective 1st line so that the veteran middle 6 center is most productive. If they were going to do it consistently they have prospects to bet on. The whole point of acquiring a 2C is so they don't have to do that.

Plus, asking if X player "isn't a guy that you see as a fit for 2C, then who is? Keeping in mind they actually need to be available, too." is wild when the player we're discussing isn't explicitly available either. I'm not going to challenge a hypothetical player who might be available without evidence if I can't use a hypothetical player who might be available without evidence. If you have an acceptable list league-wide we can discuss it, but I suspect neither of us cares enough to go through that effort. If I limit myself to just pending UFAs though, I'd rather have Duchene, Tavares, Nelson, Bennett, Suter and Gourde.

Suter and Gourde?

Anyway, as you say, Zacha isn't available. Bruins have very few guys capable of playing in the top 6 and he is one of them. His positional flexibility is key as the Bruins see what sticks and what doesn't over the next couple years. He is worth more to Boston than Montreal, who needs a 1B more than a 2 at center.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Suter and Gourde?

Anyway, as you say, Zacha isn't available. Bruins have very few guys capable of playing in the top 6 and he is one of them. His positional flexibility is key as the Bruins see what sticks and what doesn't over the next couple years. He is worth more to Boston than Montreal, who needs a 1B more than a 2 at center.

If the choice is trading a mid first, Newhook and Roy or using ample cap space to sign either a similarly aged center or a veteran guy with leadership qualities from the province, I'm choosing one of the latter two. Zacha will be UFA by the time Montreal is in a position to compete anyways. Montreal isn't in a position to pay the size premium right now since they're not close enough to competing for a cup.

The point is that none of them actually fix what Montreal needs fixing, but at least Suter or Gourde don't cost Montreal trade assets they can use to try to fix roster issues.

 

[Treb]

I mean I’m not sure Newhook is positive value. I’d rather just pay a scrub 775k for his production.

I think the 2C bit is debatable, but MTL needs more of a 1B than a classic 2C. Not trying to bash Suzuki at all, love him, but don’t see him outright winning the C battle against most contenders either, so you would want a strong strong 2C.

I guess 89 points wasn't enough for people to stop underrating Suzuki.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Zacha's production away from Pastrnak hasn't been great his entire tenure in Boston, not just this season.

And Montreal's goal would be to get a center who can, you know, lead an effective line that doesn't have the players on the one effective line they have. Demidov will hopefully be a part of that in the next few seasons, but Montreal is still mid-rebuild.

And setting aside the strange comparison of the veteran to the guy who just turned 21, isn't that a more compelling argument against Montreal acquiring a Zacha than anything anyone else in this thread has mentioned? Why would Montreal trade for a 2C who would need to play with their 1C to be effective? Why would Montreal break up their very effective 1st line so that the veteran middle 6 center is most productive. If they were going to do it consistently they have prospects to bet on. The whole point of acquiring a 2C is so they don't have to do that.

Plus, asking if X player "isn't a guy that you see as a fit for 2C, then who is? Keeping in mind they actually need to be available, too." is wild when the player we're discussing isn't explicitly available either. I'm not going to challenge a hypothetical player who might be available without evidence if I can't use a hypothetical player who might be available without evidence. If you have an acceptable list league-wide we can discuss it, but I suspect neither of us cares enough to go through that effort. If I limit myself to just pending UFAs though, I'd rather have Duchene, Tavares, Nelson, Bennett, Suter and Gourde.

you just want to snap up things for free, then? By all means, but this is a trade board. You shouldn't expect fans of other teams to want to gift you the the type of player you seem to want and are targeting in free agency, which by and large is a 1C playing in the 2C role. (Bennett is frequently a winger, and talking with Seattle fans, Gourde is most frequently a winger too). Some of the inclusions on that list make me think that you think it's more important to get something for nothing than to actually improve your team.

If your team is as good and as deep as Habs fans seem to think, you should be able to scratch up some decent linemates for Zacha. When not with Pastrnak, he gets guys like Coyle, Geekie, and Lysell.

For the type of B value pieces Montreal fans seem willing to move, I sincerely doubt you're doing better than Zacha. Keep picking him apart all you like, but for the pieces OP had available, Zacha would be a very good pickup for the Habs.

 

[wintersej]

I guess 89 points wasn't enough for people to stop underrating Suzuki.

No, scroll up. Suzuki is great. But, he isn't a competitive advantage against the centers from the top teams either. You need two number 1 lines to be a contender, especially if you don't have an elite elite 1C.

 

[Captain Mountain]

you just want to snap up things for free, then? By all means, but this is a trade board. You shouldn't expect fans of other teams to want to gift you the the type of player you seem to want and are targeting in free agency, which by and large is a 1C playing in the 2C role. (Bennett is frequently a winger, and talking with Seattle fans, Gourde is most frequently a winger too). Some of the inclusions on that list make me think that you think it's more important to get something for nothing than to actually improve your team.

If your team is as good and as deep as Habs fans seem to think, you should be able to scratch up some decent linemates for Zacha. When not with Pastrnak, he gets guys like Coyle, Geekie, and Lysell.

For the type of B value pieces Montreal fans seem willing to move, I sincerely doubt you're doing better than Zacha. Keep picking him apart all you like, but for the pieces OP had available, Zacha would be a very good pickup for the Habs.

This is the "Trades Rumors & Free Agency" board, not a trade board. And you were the one that set a requirement of players being available. Given that we have no current rumours from insiders about centers being clearly available via trade right now, it was the only way I can answer your question. What exactly do you want?

And FYI, Gourde took more faceoffs last season than Zacha, so if he's more frequently a winger, then so is Zacha.

And don't "Habs fans seem to think", you're responding to me, not an imagined strawman of Habs fan consensus. The OP is also a Habs fan and we disagree on Zacha's fit and neither is arguing what you're suggesting. Fanbases aren't monolith and I know you know that.

The Habs aren't as good or deep as they need to be which is not surprising as they are in the middle of a rebuild. They jumped ahead of a bunch of other teams and made the playoffs because the East was very mediocre and they have a number of really good young players who elevated their games when the team needed them to. That doesn't mean that Zacha makes sense as a trade target.

He'd get a 1st + B prospect from a team hoping to play for a cup when they acquire him just like every similar C. That's not Montreal.

 

[CTHabsfan]

I doubt he'd be Montreal's 4th most productive forward if he didn't have a Pastrnak to play with. His 5v5 on-ice scoring away from Pastrnak was worse than any one of Montreal's middle 6 forwards apart from Laine last season. Even expanding out multiple seasons there's not much reason to think he'd be very productive 5v5 or be a meaningful upgrade on who Montreal has in their pretty lousy middle 6. His value would be defensive, but there are better ways for Montreal to address that.

Montreal is likely willing to move a hell of lot for an actual solution at 2C, but Zacha isn't that. And Montreal's not in a point in their rebuild where trading for incremental improvements of a sub-par group makes any sense. Either pay a lot more for a lot better, pay the same for potentially a lot more but also potentially less, pay less for a gamble (like how Boston acquired Zacha in the first place) or bet on internal improvement. But Zacha is a guy that contending or near contending teams trade for, not teams in Montreal's position.

To say nothing of the fact that Boston and Montreal don't trade with each other.

How can you forget Eric Weinrich for Patrick Traverse??????????

 

[TheBeard]

I guess 89 points wasn't enough for people to stop underrating Suzuki.

Montreal fans spent so much time talking up Hutson that they ultimately ended up subconsciously changing their opinions on any other good player on that team.

 

[Treb]

Montreal fans spent so much time talking up Hutson that they ultimately ended up subconsciously changing their opinions on any other good player on that team.

Habs fans are usually not the ones underrating Suzuki.

At least, not after this year.

 

[TGWL]

He only had 7 powerplay points this year, and at evens he'd have been Montreal's 4th most productive forward.

Given the pieces montreal seems willing to move, I don't think you're doing better than Zacha.

Right, and he didn't have 50+ points, either.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Right, and he didn't have 50+ points, either.

He would have on a better team. The Habs were better than Boston this year.

 

[Eegs]

The player i'd want out of Boston is Poitras. I don't see Boston as being inclined to move him though with their prospect depth chart.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

This is the "Trades Rumors & Free Agency" board, not a trade board. And you were the one that set a requirement of players being available. Given that we have no current rumours from insiders about centers being clearly available via trade right now, it was the only way I can answer your question. What exactly do you want?

You to stop dodging the questions. Who is available for trade that meets the ever-shifting requirements of the Habs fanbase?

And FYI, Gourde took more faceoffs last season than Zacha, so if he's more frequently a winger, then so is Zacha.

Faceoffs aren't the only measure of playing C. Lots of wingers come in to take faceoffs. Mattias Janmark is a winger, but he's taken as many faceoffs as Newhook did these playoffs.

And don't "Habs fans seem to think", you're responding to me, not an imagined strawman of Habs fan consensus. The OP is also a Habs fan and we disagree on Zacha's fit and neither is arguing what you're suggesting. Fanbases aren't monolith and I know you know that.

I was trying to avoid calling you out specifically, but if you want it that way, so be it. YOU seem to value getting something for nothing more than improving your team.

The Habs aren't as good or deep as they need to be which is not surprising as they are in the middle of a rebuild. They jumped ahead of a bunch of other teams and made the playoffs because the East was very mediocre and they have a number of really good young players who elevated their games when the team needed them to. That doesn't mean that Zacha makes sense as a trade target.

You know how you get out of a rebuild? You open up the coffer of futures you're clutching to so tightly and trade for players that can help you right now. Zacha can help you right now, especially considering he's a substantial upgrade on the only NHL player in OP's proposal.

He'd get a 1st + B prospect from a team hoping to play for a cup when they acquire him just like every similar C. That's not Montreal.

If you're not hoping to play for a Cup, you're not doing it right. Especially in a conference full of paper tigers and very few legitimate contenders.

 

[TheBeard]

Habs fans are usually not the ones underrating Suzuki.

At least, not after this year.

I hope you’re right. I felt like I spent more time defending him in the Calder thread than anything.

 

[bigbadbruins1]

If Bruins took this into consideration they had better already have Marner signed/ committed. Otherwise I don't touch this deal.

 

[Captain Mountain]

@ChaoticOrange

-I'm not dodging your question and frankly the only reason I'm answering is you (as myself, not your mythical monolith Habs fanbase) is that you're usually a much more reasonable poster. From the pre-deadline trade board, excluding the centers that actually got traded, I'd want Montreal to inquire about Pettersson. I'd also like them to look at Zegras, but there's pretty strong reporting that the team doesn't view him as a center. Pageau also makes sense as a backup of a backup plan. You know who isn't on that list? Zacha. You know who has a 10 team NTC? Zacha.

-Newhook played on the wing half the playoffs, so I'm not really sure what you're point is here.

-You know what? Its time for you to put literally anything up if you're making all these demands of everyone else. Prove that I value getting something for nothing more than improving "my" team. I don't like the fit for Zacha at that cost, which isn't exactly a hot take. I'm fine with the team spending substantially more for a better fit. I'd also like them to explore signing a guy. I've posted to that effect as well.

-Apart from re-signing Jake Evans this February or guys to play in Laval, Montreal hasn't signed a UFA since 2021. They've been making trades. Last I checked teams that want to be competitive are also allowed to sign free agents.