Most important position on a team

[will1066]

Coach and the staff is the most important position

 

[aufheben]

An elite center like you talk about is worth about 1.5 goals scored per game for his team (points wise). Even less than that in today’s game. How many goals does a goalie prevent from being scored on his team? I would argue more than 1.5. Easy

A goalie that is able to consistently steal games, e.g. Lundqvist, is a once-in-a-lifetime player. It’s not something you should even expect to happen, let alone plan your roster construction around acquiring one.

Interesting enough, I really don't view the debate at Center vs. Goalie.

I tend to view the debate as Center vs. Defenseman.

I think if you were to talk to people in the sport, I think 50 percent would say center and 40 percent would say defenseman, the remaining 10 percent would be divided among goalie, wing, and no opinion.

But the ability to control play, the tempo of the game, and transition would be listed as the focus areas. In those instances, a lot of opinions would skew toward centers-defensemen.

That exact poll has been done countless times on HF, the results were probably exactly that.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

If goalies were the most important, Hasek’s career would be much much different than it was (for the better)

 

[aufheben]

Goaltending has the most impact but it's by far the easiest to find. Just about everyone has a competitive goaltender.

I mean this pretty much sums it up lol

 

[Machinehead]

An elite center like you talk about is worth about 1.5 goals scored per game for his team (points wise). Even less than that in today’s game. How many goals does a goalie prevent from being scored on his team? I would argue more than 1.5. Easy

Some fishy analytics.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

#1 CENTER AINEC

 

[Ben Grimm]

A goalie that is able to consistently steal games, e.g. Lundqvist, is a once-in-a-lifetime player. It’s not something you should even expect to happen, let alone plan your roster construction around acquiring one. ...

Agreed. The posters who voted center probably think if Gordie, Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux played today they would not be as good as OV.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

The other thing though is hockey is a game of mistakes---every time the puck turns over something didn't work right or the way it was supposed to.

Now a goalie unlike any other positional player is on the ice the entire game. A couple or three mistakes from him and you've lost the game. A goalie doesn't have anywhere near the same leeway to be making mistakes as other players. He's got to be on the ball all the time.

That goalie you speak of f was that f***ing good in 2014 and it didn’t mean shit in the end.

Lundqvist is the GOAT, yet this team wasn’t.

Case closed.

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

Top flight Center

 

[Filthy Dangles]

An elite center like you talk about is worth about 1.5 goals scored per game for his team (points wise). Even less than that in today’s game. How many goals does a goalie prevent from being scored on his team? I would argue more than 1.5. Easy

Source?

And goaltending doesn't exist in a vacuum. A defense that gives up a lot of quality chances and shots against could possibly skew the GAA numbers.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

An elite center like you talk about is worth about 1.5 goals scored per game for his team (points wise). Even less than that in today’s game. How many goals does a goalie prevent from being scored on his team? I would argue more than 1.5. Easy

1. Source?
2. How many goals does an elite goaltender prevent compared to a good goaltender and how many goales is an elite center responsible for compared to a good center?

I did some calculations and an elite goaltender has a .43GAx%/60 better than a good goaltender while an elite center has a .86GAx%/60 better than a good center.

 

[Grifter3511]

To be GOAT, you need the three pivots: center , Right[typically; not handed. Talking about play side ]D, and Goalie.

In order of Center>>RD>Goalie

If you have half of famers at each pivot, you have a dynasty

Think 70s Montreal/80sIslandersOilers/Pre Cancer Lemieux Penguins/Recent Blackhawks and Penguins

If you have 2 of 3, you have a decade power house.

Think 90s Avalanche/Pre Lindros Concussion Flyers/late80s early 90s Blackhawks/Suter era Kings

If you have 1 of 3, you are the 2014 Rangers as well as other teams with other unlucky backstops.

Also think of recent San Jose Sharks, every game Hasek played in Buffalo, 80s Hawerchuck Jets, 93 Kings, and Dionne Era Kings [debatable].

Reference: Stanley cup winning teams

Blackhawks won with a hall of fame goaltender? Somehow I missed that.

 

[GregSirico]

Center!

 

[eco's bones]

That goalie you speak of f was that ****ing good in 2014 and it didn’t mean **** in the end.

Lundqvist is the GOAT, yet this team wasn’t.

Case closed.

Case closed?

It's your opinion and my opinion--nothing has changed as far as that's concerned.

As far as 2014 there was a lot of different things happening in that series that went beyond who the centers and goalies were. Rangers were hitting goal posts left and right. Refs were leaning towards the Kings. The Rangers would carry first halves of games with their speed and second halves the Kings would carry by attrition with their physical grinding games.

I have seen Henrik dominate and win series that maybe we shouldn't have and I've seen other goalies do that before too.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Rank	Player	Height	Weight	Born	Died	Career	Nationality
1	Wayne Gretzky	6'0"	185	1961		1978-1999	Canada
2	Mario Lemieux	6'4"	230	1965		1984-2006	Canada
3	Jean Béliveau	6'3"	205	1931	2014	1950-1971	Canada
4	Howie Morenz	5'9"	165	1902	1937	1923-1937	Canada
5	Stan Mikita	5'9"	169	1940		1958-1980	Canada
6	Mark Messier	6'1"	210	1961		1978-2004	Canada
7	Bobby Clarke	5'10"	185	1949		1969-1984	Canada
8	Frank Nighbor	5'9"	160	1893	1966	1912-1930	Canada
9	Phil Esposito	6'1"	205	1942		1963-1981	Canada
10	Joe Sakic	5'11"	195	1969		1988-2009	Canada
11	Bryan Trotter	5'11"	195	1956		1975-1994	Canada
12	Fred "Cyclone" Taylor	5'8"	165	1884	1979	1905-1923	Canada
13	Steve Yzerman	5'11"	185	1965		1983-2006	Canada
14	Édouard "Newsy" Lalonde	5'9"	1680	1887	1970	1904-1927	Canada
15	Syl Apps, Sr.	6'0"	185	1915	1998	1936-1948	Canada
16	Frank Boucher	5'8"	185	1901	1977	1921-1938	Canada
17	Henri Richard	5'7"	160	1936		1955-1974	Canada
18	Milt Schmidt	6'0"	185	1918	2017	1936-1955	Canada
19*	Marcel Dionne	5'9"	190	1951		1971-1989	Canada
20*	Peter Forsberg	6'0"	205	1973		1990-2011	Sweden
21	Ted Kennedy	5'10"	170	1925	2009	1942-1957	Canada
22	Sidney Crosby	5'11"	200	1987		2005-present	Canada
23	Joe Malone	5'10"	150	1890	1969	1910-1924	Canada
24	Max Bentley	5'10"	155	1920	1984	1940-1954	Canada
25	Norm Ullman	5'10"	175	1935		1955-1977	Canada
26	Elmer Lach	5'10"	165	1918	2015	1940-1954	Canada
27	Bill Cowley	5'10"	165	1912	1993	1934-1947	Canada
28	Nels Stewart	6'1"	195	1902	1957	1925-1940	Canada
29	Sergei Fedorov (Fyodorov)	6'2"	207	1969		1986-2009	Russia
30	Sid Abel	5'11"	170	1918	2000	1938-1954	Canada
31	Dave Keon	5'9"	165	1940		1960-1982	Canada
32	Doug Gilmour	5'11"	177	1963		1983-2003	Canada
33	Alexander Maltsev	5'9"	169	1949		1967-1984	Russia
34	Joe Thornton	6'4"	220	1979		1997-present	Canada
35	Ron Francis	6'3"	200	1963		1981-2004	Canada
36	Peter Šťastný	6'1"	200	1956		1975-1995	Slovakia
37	Alex Delvecchio	6'0"	195	1932		1950-1974	Canada
38	Eric Lindros	6'4"	240	1973		1992-2007	Canada
39	Adam Oates	5'11"	190	1962		1985-2004	Canada
40	Evgeni Malkin	6'3"	195	1986		2003-present	Russia

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/hoh-top-60-centers-of-all-time.1531045/

Goaltending has the most impact but it's by far the easiest to find. …

There's 40 current or will be HoF centers. Name 40 current or will be HoF goalies. You can't, because goalies are the hardest to find. Nuff said.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Blackhawks won with a hall of fame goaltender? Somehow I missed that.

Whoops meant the 90s Blackhawks, which I placed in the second spot.

In all fairness, in their cup runs, they did get "HHOF" performances from some unexpected goalies such as Niemi.

Nonetheless, your snark and nitpick was vapid and provided nothing to the conversation aside from derailing it. If you actually have a counterpoint in your skull, please share with the group.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Rank	Player	Height	Weight	Born	Died	Career	Nationality
1	Wayne Gretzky	6'0"	185	1961		1978-1999	Canada
2	Mario Lemieux	6'4"	230	1965		1984-2006	Canada
3	Jean Béliveau	6'3"	205	1931	2014	1950-1971	Canada
4	Howie Morenz	5'9"	165	1902	1937	1923-1937	Canada
5	Stan Mikita	5'9"	169	1940		1958-1980	Canada
6	Mark Messier	6'1"	210	1961		1978-2004	Canada
7	Bobby Clarke	5'10"	185	1949		1969-1984	Canada
8	Frank Nighbor	5'9"	160	1893	1966	1912-1930	Canada
9	Phil Esposito	6'1"	205	1942		1963-1981	Canada
10	Joe Sakic	5'11"	195	1969		1988-2009	Canada
11	Bryan Trotter	5'11"	195	1956		1975-1994	Canada
12	Fred "Cyclone" Taylor	5'8"	165	1884	1979	1905-1923	Canada
13	Steve Yzerman	5'11"	185	1965		1983-2006	Canada
14	Édouard "Newsy" Lalonde	5'9"	1680	1887	1970	1904-1927	Canada
15	Syl Apps, Sr.	6'0"	185	1915	1998	1936-1948	Canada
16	Frank Boucher	5'8"	185	1901	1977	1921-1938	Canada
17	Henri Richard	5'7"	160	1936		1955-1974	Canada
18	Milt Schmidt	6'0"	185	1918	2017	1936-1955	Canada
19*	Marcel Dionne	5'9"	190	1951		1971-1989	Canada
20*	Peter Forsberg	6'0"	205	1973		1990-2011	Sweden
21	Ted Kennedy	5'10"	170	1925	2009	1942-1957	Canada
22	Sidney Crosby	5'11"	200	1987		2005-present	Canada
23	Joe Malone	5'10"	150	1890	1969	1910-1924	Canada
24	Max Bentley	5'10"	155	1920	1984	1940-1954	Canada
25	Norm Ullman	5'10"	175	1935		1955-1977	Canada
26	Elmer Lach	5'10"	165	1918	2015	1940-1954	Canada
27	Bill Cowley	5'10"	165	1912	1993	1934-1947	Canada
28	Nels Stewart	6'1"	195	1902	1957	1925-1940	Canada
29	Sergei Fedorov (Fyodorov)	6'2"	207	1969		1986-2009	Russia
30	Sid Abel	5'11"	170	1918	2000	1938-1954	Canada
31	Dave Keon	5'9"	165	1940		1960-1982	Canada
32	Doug Gilmour	5'11"	177	1963		1983-2003	Canada
33	Alexander Maltsev	5'9"	169	1949		1967-1984	Russia
34	Joe Thornton	6'4"	220	1979		1997-present	Canada
35	Ron Francis	6'3"	200	1963		1981-2004	Canada
36	Peter Šťastný	6'1"	200	1956		1975-1995	Slovakia
37	Alex Delvecchio	6'0"	195	1932		1950-1974	Canada
38	Eric Lindros	6'4"	240	1973		1992-2007	Canada
39	Adam Oates	5'11"	190	1962		1985-2004	Canada
40	Evgeni Malkin	6'3"	195	1986		2003-present	Russia

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/hoh-top-60-centers-of-all-time.1531045/

There's 40 current or will be HoF centers. Name 40 current or will be HoF goalies. You can't, because goalies are the hardest to find. Nuff said.

Or because centers impact games more, so they get more recognition in terms of the Hall of Fame

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Case closed?

It's your opinion and my opinion--nothing has changed as far as that's concerned.

As far as 2014 there was a lot of different things happening in that series that went beyond who the centers and goalies were. Rangers were hitting goal posts left and right. Refs were leaning towards the Kings. The Rangers would carry first halves of games with their speed and second halves the Kings would carry by attrition with their physical grinding games.

I have seen Henrik dominate and win series that maybe we shouldn't have and I've seen other goalies do that before too.

My point is, and it's sort of sad, that we will never see as strong as a performance from any other goalie in our lifetime, yet we still didn't win.

The GOAT Ranger goalie who is a future first ballot Hal of fame had a hall of fame playoffs, and still lost and had to scarp our way in to the finals with not HHOF top 3.

My point about "case closed" is in no way knocking Lundqvist.

I've said many times to these ding-dongs on here that had you put Lundqvist during his peak on the New Era™ Penguins or Blackhawks, either one of those teams would have at least 6 cups.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Or because centers impact games more, so they get more recognition in terms of the Hall of Fame

Muggsy Bogues is the most important player in NBA history because the NBA HOF is filled with so many tall players.

 

[Machinehead]

Rank	Player	Height	Weight	Born	Died	Career	Nationality
1	Wayne Gretzky	6'0"	185	1961		1978-1999	Canada
2	Mario Lemieux	6'4"	230	1965		1984-2006	Canada
3	Jean Béliveau	6'3"	205	1931	2014	1950-1971	Canada
4	Howie Morenz	5'9"	165	1902	1937	1923-1937	Canada
5	Stan Mikita	5'9"	169	1940		1958-1980	Canada
6	Mark Messier	6'1"	210	1961		1978-2004	Canada
7	Bobby Clarke	5'10"	185	1949		1969-1984	Canada
8	Frank Nighbor	5'9"	160	1893	1966	1912-1930	Canada
9	Phil Esposito	6'1"	205	1942		1963-1981	Canada
10	Joe Sakic	5'11"	195	1969		1988-2009	Canada
11	Bryan Trotter	5'11"	195	1956		1975-1994	Canada
12	Fred "Cyclone" Taylor	5'8"	165	1884	1979	1905-1923	Canada
13	Steve Yzerman	5'11"	185	1965		1983-2006	Canada
14	Édouard "Newsy" Lalonde	5'9"	1680	1887	1970	1904-1927	Canada
15	Syl Apps, Sr.	6'0"	185	1915	1998	1936-1948	Canada
16	Frank Boucher	5'8"	185	1901	1977	1921-1938	Canada
17	Henri Richard	5'7"	160	1936		1955-1974	Canada
18	Milt Schmidt	6'0"	185	1918	2017	1936-1955	Canada
19*	Marcel Dionne	5'9"	190	1951		1971-1989	Canada
20*	Peter Forsberg	6'0"	205	1973		1990-2011	Sweden
21	Ted Kennedy	5'10"	170	1925	2009	1942-1957	Canada
22	Sidney Crosby	5'11"	200	1987		2005-present	Canada
23	Joe Malone	5'10"	150	1890	1969	1910-1924	Canada
24	Max Bentley	5'10"	155	1920	1984	1940-1954	Canada
25	Norm Ullman	5'10"	175	1935		1955-1977	Canada
26	Elmer Lach	5'10"	165	1918	2015	1940-1954	Canada
27	Bill Cowley	5'10"	165	1912	1993	1934-1947	Canada
28	Nels Stewart	6'1"	195	1902	1957	1925-1940	Canada
29	Sergei Fedorov (Fyodorov)	6'2"	207	1969		1986-2009	Russia
30	Sid Abel	5'11"	170	1918	2000	1938-1954	Canada
31	Dave Keon	5'9"	165	1940		1960-1982	Canada
32	Doug Gilmour	5'11"	177	1963		1983-2003	Canada
33	Alexander Maltsev	5'9"	169	1949		1967-1984	Russia
34	Joe Thornton	6'4"	220	1979		1997-present	Canada
35	Ron Francis	6'3"	200	1963		1981-2004	Canada
36	Peter Šťastný	6'1"	200	1956		1975-1995	Slovakia
37	Alex Delvecchio	6'0"	195	1932		1950-1974	Canada
38	Eric Lindros	6'4"	240	1973		1992-2007	Canada
39	Adam Oates	5'11"	190	1962		1985-2004	Canada
40	Evgeni Malkin	6'3"	195	1986		2003-present	Russia

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/hoh-top-60-centers-of-all-time.1531045/

There's 40 current or will be HoF centers. Name 40 current or will be HoF goalies. You can't, because goalies are the hardest to find. Nuff said.

The NHL employs 120 centers and 60 goaltenders.

Gee, maybe there's more centers in the HOF because there's more centers.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The NHL employs 120 centers and 60 goaltenders.

Gee, maybe there's more centers in the HOF because there's more centers.

Stop throwing facts at us, man.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I do truly love this thread.

Thank you @Nopuckluck

Best gift ever.

 

[eco's bones]

My point is, and it's sort of sad, that we will never see as strong as a performance from any other goalie in our lifetime, yet we still didn't win.

The GOAT Ranger goalie who is a future first ballot Hal of fame had a hall of fame playoffs, and still lost and had to scarp our way in to the finals with not HHOF top 3.

My point about "case closed" is in no way knocking Lundqvist.

I've said many times to these ding-dongs on here that had you put Lundqvist during his peak on the New Era™ Penguins or Blackhawks, either one of those teams would have at least 6 cups.

Your best players have to play their best for your team to win a Stanley Cup. Henrik held up his end but IMO more of the Kings best players held up their end than Rangers players. I really don't want to beat the dead horse of Rick Nash again though. Still if he'd have been a factor throughout those playoffs and played like a first line goal scorer and a leader maybe--just maybe we would have squeaked it out. And no I don't want him back.

Did we have a center as good as Kopitar? No.
Did we have a defenseman as good as Doughty? No.

But we were also eaten up by guys like Gaborik or Justin Williams. They had more guys that stepped up. There were turning points though--people can point to Girardi's stick snapping in one game or Dwight King clearly running over Henrik in another which led a second later to a goal and got the Kings back in that particular game.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Your best players have to play their best for your team to win a Stanley Cup. Henrik held up his end but IMO more of the Kings best players held up their end than Rangers players. I really don't want to beat the dead horse of Rick Nash again though. Still if he'd have been a factor throughout those playoffs and played like a first line goal scorer and a leader maybe--just maybe we would have squeaked it out. And no I don't want him back.

Did we have a center as good as Kopitar? No.
Did we have a defenseman as good as Doughty? No.

But we were also eaten up by guys like Gaborik or Justin Williams. They had more guys that stepped up. There were turning points though--people can point to Girardi's stick snapping in one game or Dwight King clearly running over Henrik in another which led a second later to a goal and got the Kings back in that particular game.

I'm saying it's the inherent limit of the position.

Furthermore, if you refer to my OP, there is a reason the Suter era Kings fall into the powerhouse territory [2/3 ain't bad] vs GOAT/Dynasty territory..

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Rank	Player	Height	Weight	Born	Died	Career	Nationality
1	Wayne Gretzky	6'0"	185	1961		1978-1999	Canada
2	Mario Lemieux	6'4"	230	1965		1984-2006	Canada
3	Jean Béliveau	6'3"	205	1931	2014	1950-1971	Canada
4	Howie Morenz	5'9"	165	1902	1937	1923-1937	Canada
5	Stan Mikita	5'9"	169	1940		1958-1980	Canada
6	Mark Messier	6'1"	210	1961		1978-2004	Canada
7	Bobby Clarke	5'10"	185	1949		1969-1984	Canada
8	Frank Nighbor	5'9"	160	1893	1966	1912-1930	Canada
9	Phil Esposito	6'1"	205	1942		1963-1981	Canada
10	Joe Sakic	5'11"	195	1969		1988-2009	Canada
11	Bryan Trotter	5'11"	195	1956		1975-1994	Canada
12	Fred "Cyclone" Taylor	5'8"	165	1884	1979	1905-1923	Canada
13	Steve Yzerman	5'11"	185	1965		1983-2006	Canada
14	Édouard "Newsy" Lalonde	5'9"	1680	1887	1970	1904-1927	Canada
15	Syl Apps, Sr.	6'0"	185	1915	1998	1936-1948	Canada
16	Frank Boucher	5'8"	185	1901	1977	1921-1938	Canada
17	Henri Richard	5'7"	160	1936		1955-1974	Canada
18	Milt Schmidt	6'0"	185	1918	2017	1936-1955	Canada
19*	Marcel Dionne	5'9"	190	1951		1971-1989	Canada
20*	Peter Forsberg	6'0"	205	1973		1990-2011	Sweden
21	Ted Kennedy	5'10"	170	1925	2009	1942-1957	Canada
22	Sidney Crosby	5'11"	200	1987		2005-present	Canada
23	Joe Malone	5'10"	150	1890	1969	1910-1924	Canada
24	Max Bentley	5'10"	155	1920	1984	1940-1954	Canada
25	Norm Ullman	5'10"	175	1935		1955-1977	Canada
26	Elmer Lach	5'10"	165	1918	2015	1940-1954	Canada
27	Bill Cowley	5'10"	165	1912	1993	1934-1947	Canada
28	Nels Stewart	6'1"	195	1902	1957	1925-1940	Canada
29	Sergei Fedorov (Fyodorov)	6'2"	207	1969		1986-2009	Russia
30	Sid Abel	5'11"	170	1918	2000	1938-1954	Canada
31	Dave Keon	5'9"	165	1940		1960-1982	Canada
32	Doug Gilmour	5'11"	177	1963		1983-2003	Canada
33	Alexander Maltsev	5'9"	169	1949		1967-1984	Russia
34	Joe Thornton	6'4"	220	1979		1997-present	Canada
35	Ron Francis	6'3"	200	1963		1981-2004	Canada
36	Peter Šťastný	6'1"	200	1956		1975-1995	Slovakia
37	Alex Delvecchio	6'0"	195	1932		1950-1974	Canada
38	Eric Lindros	6'4"	240	1973		1992-2007	Canada
39	Adam Oates	5'11"	190	1962		1985-2004	Canada
40	Evgeni Malkin	6'3"	195	1986		2003-present	Russia

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/hoh-top-60-centers-of-all-time.1531045/

There's 40 current or will be HoF centers. Name 40 current or will be HoF goalies. You can't, because goalies are the hardest to find. Nuff said.

Also, the Rangers have 4 cups in their history, 3 with #16 on this list [the 1940 cup was when he was a player/coach] and the 4th cup was with 6 on this list.

The top center on the 1940 team, Bryan Hextall, would have also made this list if his career totals weren't skewed because of sickness and WW2.

And since we are going for a throwback, The Gumper was one of the GOAT, yet his 4 cups were with Montreal when he slightly less good, fatter, and way drunker in Montreal than he ever was in Midtown.