Player Discussion Morgan Rielly

[Stephen]

That same Pietro summer signed also had Josi (6'1) and Spurgeon (5'9) signing big money deal. If I look at comparable deals around that time, say kicking in from 2020 (Pietro, Josi) to 2022 (Mo, Nurse, Jones, McAvoy) the average height is 6'2.

I'd argue that Werenski, Mo and McAvoy are a closer build to eachother than they are to either Adam Fox or Seth Jones as well.

That’s fine.

I mean I wouldn’t say Spurgeon is part of that group, similar to the way Morgan isn’t he isn’t in that pay bracket. Maybe the recap on market trends is Norris guys like Josi and Fox got paid as deserved, but the market was willing to also overpay for Nurse and Jones based on the value of Petro setting the bar around $9 million.

End of the day, a 6’3” plus cornerstone defenseman is something I could understand teams speculating on and overpaying for. Imagine a prime age Tanev with offense. It’s a $$$ player type.

 

[IPS]

They're all 6ft2 until you meet them in person

I'm sure there's some D who have their height listed right. Darnell Nurse for example just watching him you could easily believe he's 6'4", but yeah i'd honestly think 80+% of all player heights listed aren't correct at all.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There was a run on 5 defensemen of massive quality difference each making between $8.8 million and $9.5 million all signed within a 12 month time period between late 2020 and fall 2021. Pietrangelo, Jones, Nurse, Werenski and Hamilton. Each were seen as number one workhorse defensemen who brought size but of varying career track record, age, RFA vs UFA status.

McAvoy and Fox didn’t fit into that size requirement but got $9 million plus. Fox was a Norris winner and McAvoy is a classic franchise defenseman at any size.

Morgan was paid a lot less than that group but you could make the argument he was better than at least Jones and Nurse at the time. So obviously he didn’t get paid like a 6’3” plus franchise cornerstone on D that the market valued.

Cherry picking a handful of tall defensemen that got big contracts does not mean they got big contracts because they were tall. Defensemen of all different sizes get big contracts, as you've been shown. You even gave multiple examples that contradict your own claim.

Close to half of the 7m+ defensemen in the league are Rielly's height or smaller. The smallest defenseman in the league got more than Rielly. The highest defenseman cap hit belongs to a 6'0" defenseman. The second highest defenseman contract belongs to a 6'1" defenseman. And in a couple years, we will likely see a 5'11" take the lead.

Rielly's contract has nothing to do with his height, which for the record, is an average height.

 

[Stephen]

Cherry picking a handful of tall defensemen that got big contracts does not mean they got big contracts because they were tall. Defensemen of all different sizes get big contracts, as you've been shown. You even gave multiple examples that contradict your own claim.

Close to half of the 7m+ defensemen in the league are Rielly's height or smaller. The smallest defenseman in the league got more than Rielly. The highest defenseman cap hit belongs to a 6'0" defenseman. The second highest defenseman contract belongs to a 6'1" defenseman. And in a couple years, we will likely see a 5'11" take the lead.

Rielly's contract has nothing to do with his height, which for the record, is an average height.

These guys were all considered number one-ish defensemen who signed in the 2020 and 2021 calendar years who would be considered number one defensemen.

Other guys making $9 million plus who don’t fit into the size category would be Josi, Fox and McAvoy, while someone like Spurgeon and Rielly would be number one-ish guys who didn’t hit the $9 million.

So between Pietrangelo, Hamilton, Werenski, Jones, Nurse, I see a market trend where a range of variance in ability, track record, RFA vs UFA but the common thread is teams were willing to get to a certain level to have that type of 6’3” guy as a number one.

Beyond that, feel free to disagree.

 

[Ports]

Other than a season of Barrie we have never really had a mobile or offensively capable defense this window. Dubas’ adds on D were Muzzin, Brodie, McCabe and a who’s who of Polak impressionists like Lyub, Schenn, Bogosian, Benn, etc. Sandin was our most offensively inclined guy behind Rielly and he was slow as shit. We never tried to go full Colorado where they had a smooth skating high IQ D on every pair. Possession heavy speedsters is having one of Makar, Towes, Girard, and Byram on the ice all 60 minutes, we never came close to that.

No money to pay those type of players. Too much money used on similar type star forwards. Perhaps that changes this summer.

 

[Ports]

Terrific game last night. Notably, he was using his legs to jump in on the rush and create chances. That's what he needs to do: can't play scared. He is a Ferrari, not an F150.

Some good. Some bad but definitely better. I’m not buying Rielly stock yet though. One game is too small a sample.

 

[Gallagbi]

These guys were all considered number one-ish defensemen who signed in the 2020 and 2021 calendar years who would be considered number one defensemen.

Other guys making $9 million plus who don’t fit into the size category would be Josi, Fox and McAvoy, while someone like Spurgeon and Rielly would be number one-ish guys who didn’t hit the $9 million.

So between Pietrangelo, Hamilton, Werenski, Jones, Nurse, I see a market trend where a range of variance in ability, track record, RFA vs UFA but the common thread is teams were willing to get to a certain level to have that type of 6’3” guy as a number one.

Beyond that, feel free to disagree.

Some numbers/info for you, do with it what you want

- 8 D had $9M (or higher) deals kick in between 2020-2022
- 4 of them are 6'1 or less
- Average height of that group of 8 is 6'2
- Werenski who you've mentioned a number of times is listed at 6'2, 219lbs

 

[arso40]

Other than a season of Barrie we have never really had a mobile or offensively capable defense this window. Dubas’ adds on D were Muzzin, Brodie, McCabe and a who’s who of Polak impressionists like Lyub, Schenn, Bogosian, Benn, etc. Sandin was our most offensively inclined guy behind Rielly and he was slow as shit. We never tried to go full Colorado where they had a smooth skating high IQ D on every pair. Possession heavy speedsters is having one of Makar, Towes, Girard, and Byram on the ice all 60 minutes, we never came close to that.

Sandin is better than rielly higher iq more physical not a defensive liability the move should have been to move off of rielly and keep sandin

 

[Dekes For Days]

These guys were all considered number one-ish defensemen who signed in the 2020 and 2021 calendar years who would be considered number one defensemen.

Other guys making $9 million plus who don’t fit into the size category would be Josi, Fox and McAvoy, while someone like Spurgeon and Rielly would be number one-ish guys who didn’t hit the $9 million.

So between Pietrangelo, Hamilton, Werenski, Jones, Nurse, I see a market trend where a range of variance in ability, track record, RFA vs UFA but the common thread is teams were willing to get to a certain level to have that type of 6’3” guy as a number one.

Just because you consider a handful of guys you picked out to be "number one-ish defensemen", that does not mean that they all deserved to be paid the same, and it does not mean that if they weren't all paid the same, then it was due to the heights of the players. You have no evidence to support this. You just randomly decided this, contrary to all counterevidence, because you like big defensemen.

There is no market trend around height. That claim had been debunked by multiple people.

 

[Stephen]

Just because you consider a handful of guys you picked out to be "number one-ish defensemen", that does not mean that they all deserved to be paid the same, and it does not mean that if they weren't all paid the same, then it was due to the heights of the players. You have no evidence to support this. You just randomly decided this, contrary to all counterevidence, because you like big defensemen.

There is no market trend around height. That claim had been debunked by multiple people.

There’s no debunking, the 2020 to 2021 offseasons simply generated a tiny handful of contracts at the $9 million range in the wake of the Pietrangelo contract. I didn’t say you had to be 6’3” to earn that salary, other Norris level guys hitting mark at shorter heights. But fact remains Jones and Nurse got paid by the market because of their height/status and neither of them were UFAs at the time.

Take a step back for a moment, you don’t even know what you’re arguing about.

 

[1specter]

Rielly's like 5'11" at best, but most defensemen have fraudulent heights listed.

Don't think so. Plenty of photos with him and others on the team, he is definitely at least 6'0 or 6'1. He hunches over when he skates which makes him look a bit shorter, but he's not.

 

[Dekes For Days]

But fact remains Jones and Nurse got paid by the market because of their height/status and neither of them were UFAs at the time.

There is zero evidence that the contracts to Nurse or Jones or anybody else were impacted by their height. There is also zero evidence that Rielly got paid less because of his height.

 

[Stephen]

Some numbers/info for you, do with it what you want

- 8 D had $9M (or higher) deals kick in between 2020-2022
- 4 of them are 6'1 or less
- Average height of that group of 8 is 6'2
- Werenski who you've mentioned a number of times is listed at 6'2, 219lbs

Some numbers/info for you, do with it what you want

- 8 D had $9M (or higher) deals kick in between 2020-2022
- 4 of them are 6'1 or less
- Average height of that group of 8 is 6'2
- Werenski who you've mentioned a number of times is listed at 6'2, 219lbs

Ok, I’ll concede Werenski is an inch shorter than criteria, and we can disqualify him for the sake of accuracy. But I know at least 3 of the 4 defensemen you’re referencing are Makar, Fox and Josi, who all have Norris trophies, signed in 2021… and we know Jones makes more than Fox, who won the Norris that year. Nurse makes more than Josi and Makar.

The 25 Highest-Paid NHL Defensemen

Pittsburgh Penguins enforcer Erik Karlsson is the highest-paid NHL defensemen earning $11.5 million annually.

frontofficesports.com

So end of the day I don’t think you can discount the notion that teams speculated on or overpaid based on size.

Again, circling back to Rielly, he’s not a $9 million AAV, isn’t a Norris winner and isn’t 6’3”.

 

[Stephen]

There is zero evidence that the contracts to Nurse or Jones or anybody else were impacted by their height. There is also zero evidence that Rielly got paid less because of his height.

Oh yeah, aside from their published heights and actual salaries, no evidence.

For funsies go check out the points totals scored by Jones, Nurse, Rielly between 2020 and 2021. Nurse scored 69 points. Rielly scored 62 and Jones 58 ranking 19th and 34th.

So maybe age is a factor right? Nope. Jones and Rielly were born in 1994, Nurse in 1995.

 

[Gallagbi]

Ok, I’ll concede Werenski is an inch shorter than criteria, and we can disqualify him for the sake of accuracy. But I know at least 3 of the 4 defensemen you’re referencing are Makar, Fox and Josi, who all have Norris trophies, signed in 2021… and we know Jones makes more than Fox, who won the Norris that year. Nurse makes more than Josi and Makar.

The 25 Highest-Paid NHL Defensemen

Pittsburgh Penguins enforcer Erik Karlsson is the highest-paid NHL defensemen earning $11.5 million annually.

frontofficesports.com

So end of the day I don’t think you can discount the notion that teams speculated on or overpaid based on size.

Again, circling back to Rielly, he’s not a $9 million AAV, isn’t a Norris winner and isn’t 6’3”.

You're really all over the map here and have been since that chart was posted a page or two ago. Where did you want the focus of your discussion?

- 2020 to 2022 payments of #1D (included Rielly)
- Cost of premium #1D v size?
- Why the Nurse and Jones deals are such outliers to the rest of the D, regardless of size?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Oh yeah, aside from their published heights and actual salaries, no evidence.

For funsies go check out the points totals scored by Jones, Nurse, Rielly between 2020 and 2021. Nurse scored 69 points. Rielly scored 62 and Jones 58 ranking 19th and 34th.

So maybe age is a factor right? Nope. Jones and Rielly were born in 1994, Nurse in 1995.

Their published heights and actual salaries aren't the issue. You trying to claim that their actual salaries were a result of their published heights despite zero evidence is the issue. You have inserted your own "why", based on nothing.

Defensemen contracts aren't just based on age and points over the previous year either.

 

[Martin Skoula]

No money to pay those type of players. Too much money used on similar type star forwards. Perhaps that changes this summer.

Makar Towes Girard cost 20.1 mil during their cup run, if Muzzin had not gotten LTIRetired we’d have been spending 18.1 on him Brodie and Rielly. Trading for a Towes level D seems like a much bigger problem for the geniuses in management than paying him once you have him.

 

[Aashir]

Some good. Some bad but definitely better. I’m not buying Rielly stock yet though. One game is too small a sample.

It’s definitely too small, but for him it’s something to build off

You can’t turn a season around without first turning a game around.

It’s a good start, but obviously it needs to continue

 

[Stephen]

You're really all over the map here and have been since that chart was posted a page or two ago. Where did you want the focus of your discussion?

- 2020 to 2022 payments of #1D (included Rielly)
- Cost of premium #1D v size?
- Why the Nurse and Jones deals are such outliers to the rest of the D, regardless of size?

Why are you so worked up over the notion that the market paid premium for big defensemen who were up for re-signing and some guys got overpaid as a result?

Are you trying to suggest Rielly should have been paid $9 million at the time? Don’t think that would be the case.

Are you trying to suggest Nurse and Jones were superior defensemen at the time compared to Rielly? Don’t think that would be the case.

Are you trying to suggest Nurse and Jones aren’t overpaid? I don’t think that’s it either.

Are you trying to challenge the notion that bigger defensemen get paid by citing smaller defensemen who also got paid? If you notice I didn’t say only tall defensemen get paid, so I don’t see why you’re trying to average out the height of defensemen and bring in Jared Spurgeon into the discussion.

Why are you bringing up 2022? I literally said the 2021 market was responding to the Pietrangelo signing in 2020.

 

[Gallagbi]

Why are you so worked up over the notion that the market paid premium for big defensemen who were up for re-signing and some guys got overpaid as a result?

Are you trying to suggest Rielly should have been paid $9 million at the time? Don’t think that would be the case.

Are you trying to suggest Nurse and Jones were superior defensemen at the time compared to Rielly? Don’t think that would be the case.

Are you trying to suggest Nurse and Jones aren’t overpaid? I don’t think that’s it either.

Are you trying to challenge the notion that bigger defensemen get paid by citing smaller defensemen who also got paid? If you notice I didn’t say only tall defensemen get paid, so I don’t see why you’re trying to average out the height of defensemen and bring in Jared Spurgeon into the discussion.

Why are you bringing up 2022? I literally said the 2021 market was responding to the Pietrangelo signing in 2020.

It's interesting you think I'm worked up when it's actually been quite a laugh watching you pivot around this thread to force your narrative.

I think it's two outlier contracts when they were signed that the world knew were bad deals. It sent a lot of this board into a frenzy though thinking Mo would lock in at a similar number, which he thankfully didn't.

Mo, Jones and Nurse's contract all signed with an effective date of 2022. They signed in 2021 and the deals kicked in the following year.

 

[Stephen]

It's interesting you think I'm worked up when it's actually been quite a laugh watching you pivot around this thread to force your narrative.

I think it's two outlier contracts when they were signed that the world knew were bad deals. It sent a lot of this board into a frenzy though thinking Mo would lock in at a similar number, which he thankfully didn't.

Mo, Jones and Nurse's contract all signed with an effective date of 2022. They signed in 2021 and the deals kicked in the following year.

Clearly the valuations at the time put those guys in a different income bracket to Rielly paying them Pietrangelo plus dollars. They are only outliers now because they were overpaid and under delivered.