More MVP Worthy Player: Mackinnon, Kuch or Drai?

[Pierre Larouche]

If it's a skater, it has to be Kucherov. Otherwise I don't know what he has to do...

Kuch only has to do two things: 1) He has to not be Russian; and 2) Make Canada and the NHL forget his interpretation of the Allstar game drill/contest thing. If he can make this happen, expect the hardware to pile up.

 

[Daximus]

On the radio they said if Kuch doesn't win the Hart it'll be the first time a b2b Art Ross winner doesn't win it in either year since Jagr in 2001.

His standing among the media and fans reminds me of Jagrs during that time. Jagr is well liked now but back in the day he wasn't exactly a league favourite.

 

[ijuka]

On the radio they said if Kuch doesn't win the Hart it'll be the first time a b2b Art Ross winner doesn't win it in either year since Jagr in 2001.

The only player who's won back-to-back Art Ross trophies since then is Connor McDavid. This is one of those stats that's technically correct but that sounds a lot worse than it is.

 

[More 2004]

Kkkuuuuuucccchhhhhh

 

[SillyRabbit]

Still don't understand how Kucherov isn't the favorite here.

Leads the league in points.
Leads the league in points per game.
29 points more than the second highest scorer on his team.
Second Art Ross in a row (third in the McDavid era).
No (voted on) trophies last year, so you can't blame voter fatigue.

He's going to end up 15-18 points ahead of Draisaitl, who most betting sites have as ahead of him.

I don't know how you can just snub him for a second year like this.

 

[villacco]

Hellebuyck should win it.
MacKinnon has no business being ahead of Kucherov two years in a row. Arguably not even once.
Draisaitl was the MVP of all forwards for me (as Kucherov fan), but missing time at the end and Hellebuyck playing great settles it.

 

[catters078]

Yeh for me it comes down to Kucherov v Hellebuyck. Voters will have to weigh the difficult impact of assessing Skater vs Goalie.

Hellebuyck been amazing all year but man he has a solid defense in front of him, best team in the league in front of him. This stood out to me 2 weeks ago when Winnipeg crushed Vegas in Vegas, 3-0 shutout. Vegas barely got a good chance...Was comrie in net.

Not diminishing Hellebuycks awesome season, just think it's so hard to assess when the team in front of him make it very easy every night

If I was a voter my votes would be

5. Kucherov
4. Hellebuyck
3. Draisatl
2. Mackinnon
1. Makar

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

With the snubs on conn smythes, last year and if he doesnt win a hart this year + all the rankings with him not being in top 5 players in the world, he might be the most snubbed player ever

 

[Acallabeth]

Eric Comrie? Eric Comrie is your argument against Hellebuyck?? A sub .900% a 3+ GAA career… Eric Comrie…

You realize you're reinforcing his argument, right? Eric Comrie, a sub .900% a 3+ GAA career Eric Comrie, is top 10 in GAA and sv% in the league.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

You realize you're reinforcing his argument, right? Eric Comrie, a sub .900% a 3+ GAA career Eric Comrie, is top 10 in GAA and sv% in the league.

Yeah, it’s pathetic when people say that Hellebuyck is carrying the team. I mean, he’s great but look at Connor‘s and Scheifele‘s points totals, look at Comrie and his stats, look at the depth of forwards and defensemen. And he’s not even that much better than Vasy and Kuemper to begin with.

 

[MattM92]

Kucherov was the MVP last year and he is the MVP this year. He is currently the best hockey player on the planet. Who knows how much longer that will be the case, but it is the truth right now.

Hellebuyck had a great season and likely deserves the Vezina, but much of his success comes from having a very good defensive team in front of him. GAA is primarily a team stat and it is no surprise that the two best defensive teams have the two goalies with the best GAA in the league by a wide margin. When you look at more of an individual goalie stat like s%, the gap between Hellebuyck and the field is basically non-existent.

Kucherov is clearing the field in P/GP and continued to produce despite losing Stamkos, something that many thought would negatively impact Kucherov much, much more than it did. He is unquestionably the most valuable player to his team as the margin between him and the 2nd best forward in the league is larger than the margin between Hellebuyck and even the 5th best goalie in the league.

One final really sad thought: as great as Kucherov has been this season, he is nowhere near what he was last season. The fact that he got snubbed for the MVP last year despite being the highest scoring winger of all time, being the first winger ever to record 100 assists in a season, and factoring into 50% (read: FIFTY!!) of his team's scoring is one of the most baffling things I have ever seen in sports.

 

[atlanticobserver]

He has 2 EN goals all season, which makes his 3 EN goal game even more impressive.

Generational, even.

And one was on the first game of the season against Carolina, right?

 

[landy]

MacKinnon deserves it simpyl for the fact the Avs are god awful without him in the lineup.

Oilers look great with McDavid only and Lightning have so much that they look find without Kuch.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

MacKinnon deserves it simpyl for the fact the Avs are god awful without him in the lineup.

It's a really weak argument honestly

 

[landy]

It's a really weak argument honestly

I know. Sadly I feel like Helle should get it. If it were me voting unbiasedly, id go

1. Helle
2. Eichel
3. McDavid

Mac is a machine but Makar has been equally good no the backend.
Drais benefits from McDavid either being on the ice or taking the tougher matchups for him.
Kuch has been Kuch all year, but we've barely talked about him all season but because the Art Ross is his, he apparently deserves the Hart now too.

 

[tfwnogf]

I know. Sadly I feel like Helle should get it. If it were me voting unbiasedly, id go

1. Helle
2. Eichel
3. McDavid

Mac is a machine but Makar has been equally good no the backend.
Drais benefits from McDavid either being on the ice or taking the tougher matchups for him.
Kuch has been Kuch all year, but we've barely talked about him all season but because the Art Ross is his, he apparently deserves the Hart now too.

McDavid over Draisaitl this year is a joke. Drai carried them when McDavid was dealing with some kind of injury. Without Drai they don't make the playoffs.

 

[Sky04]

McDavid over Draisaitl this year is a joke. Drai carried them when McDavid was dealing with some kind of injury. Without Drai they don't make the playoffs.

They wouldn't make the playoffs without McDavid either so..

 

[landy]

McDavid over Draisaitl this year is a joke. Drai carried them when McDavid was dealing with some kind of injury. Without Drai they don't make the playoffs.

Please define "carried". Every single point Draisaitl has, McDavid contributed either directly by being on the ice or indirectly by taking the best dmen away. Draisaitl's production has been evenly distributed between w/ McDavid, w/o McDavid, and on the PP. Games without him are below and arent anything insane IMO.

Draisaitl without McDavid
10.31 NSH 2G 1A +3 W
11.3 CGY 1G 2A +2 W
11.4 NJD 0G 0A even L
1.21 WSH 1G 1A -1 L
1.23 VAN 1G 2A even W
1.25 BUF 0G 0A even W
3.29 CGY 2G 1A +3 OTW
4.1 VGK - 1G even W
4.3 SJS - 1A -1 W

9GP 8G 8A +6 1.77 PPG
6W 2L 1OTW
6 junk teams
3 good teams

McDavid without Draisaitl
3.20 WPG - 1A +1 OTL
4.9 STL - 3A +3 W
4.11 SJS - 4A +2 W
4.13 WPG - 2A +3 W

4GP 10A +9 3W 1OTL 2.5 PPG
1 junk team
3 good teams

And the argument that McDavid hasnt been the same has been easily debunked. He is actually pacing at a higher ES PPG than his historic 150+ point season. The only difference this year is less PP opps around the league and EDM specifically.

 

[tfwnogf]

Please define "carried". Every single point Draisaitl has, McDavid contributed either directly by being on the ice or indirectly by taking the best dmen away. Draisaitl's production has been evenly distributed between w/ McDavid, w/o McDavid, and on the PP. Games without him are below and arent anything insane IMO.

Draisaitl without McDavid
10.31 NSH 2G 1A +3 W
11.3 CGY 1G 2A +2 W
11.4 NJD 0G 0A even L
1.21 WSH 1G 1A -1 L
1.23 VAN 1G 2A even W
1.25 BUF 0G 0A even W
3.29 CGY 2G 1A +3 OTW
4.1 VGK - 1G even W
4.3 SJS - 1A -1 W

9GP 8G 8A +6 1.77 PPG
6W 2L 1OTW
6 junk teams
3 good teams

McDavid without Draisaitl
3.20 WPG - 1A +1 OTL
4.9 STL - 3A +3 W
4.11 SJS - 4A +2 W
4.13 WPG - 2A +3 W

4GP 10A +9 3W 1OTL 2.5 PPG
1 junk team
3 good teams

And the argument that McDavid hasnt been the same has been easily debunked. He is actually pacing at a higher ES PPG than his historic 150+ point season. The only difference this year is less PP opps around the league and EDM specifically.

All this weird stuff to say you don't watch the games. That would tell you a lot more than useless numbers.

They wouldn't make the playoffs without McDavid either so..

This year Drai had a much bigger impact and drove the offense. So...

 

[Stammertime91]

As a lightning fan, it's obvious who I want. I don't mind Helle winning it, though. If it's not him, I don't know how it's not Kucherov. Then again, it won't surprise me if he's not even a finalist which we all know would be horseshit.

 

[landy]

All this weird stuff to say you don't watch the games. That would tell you a lot more than useless numbers.

This year Drai had a much bigger impact and drove the offense. So...

lol so were going off the eye test only and numbers dont matter...

ES with McDavid
47 GF
27 GA
+20

ES without McDavid
42 GF
28 GA
+14

PP with McDavid
36 GF

PP without McDavid
5 GF

If you want to argue Drais's defense has been amazing because he gets the other teams top offensive matchups, cool. Or if you want to show data that Drais receives the Slavin's of the league and McDavid gets the 2nd best, cool. I think we all know the truth there though.

If McDavid wasnt on this team, slam dunk home run Hart with those numbers, but since he is, its too easy to look at and dissect.

As a lightning fan, it's obvious who I want. I don't mind Helle winning it, though. If it's not him, I don't know how it's not Kucherov. Then again, it won't surprise me if he's not even a finalist which we all know would be horseshit.

For me, its his overall game. He drives offense and thats it. Insanely valuable, but its a team effort in Tampa.

 

[tfwnogf]

lol so were going off the eye test only and numbers dont matter...

ES with McDavid
47 GF
27 GA
+20

ES without McDavid
42 GF
28 GA
+14

PP with McDavid
36 GF

PP without McDavid
5 GF

If you want to argue Drais's defense has been amazing because he gets the other teams top offensive matchups, cool. Or if you want to show data that Drais receives the Slavin's of the league and McDavid gets the 2nd best, cool. I think we all know the truth there though.

When you only look at stats, you miss things like clutch performances and driving play, which Drai did plenty of in the early-mid season. Without Drai's timely goals there's a lot of games they don't win. I don't think McDavid being on the team means Drai doesn't get to win. He's already won a Hart in a season where McDavid played 64 games. I don't know if Drai wins this year since he missed some games but he's put on a Hart worthy performance.

 

[landy]

When you only look at stats, you miss things like clutch performances and driving play, which Drai did plenty of in the early-mid season. Without Drai's timely goals there's a lot of games they don't win. I don't think McDavid being on the team means Drai doesn't get to win. He's already won a Hart in a season where McDavid played 64 games. I don't know if Drai wins this year since he missed some games but he's put on a Hart worthy performance.

Ive watched the games too and see McDavid and the play driver 90% of the time with Draisaitl being the finisher. No doubt, very important and a superstar still, but it is still Robin to Batman, Rantanen to MacKinnon, etc etc etc.

Have examples you can point to? It should be reasonably easy to look up GWG in one goal/empty net games. Were his GWG goal 3 in a 7-2 win or goal 3 with minutes remaining? OT and EN points obviously are weighted negatively. And again, my main argument, show me that when he is not on the ice with McDavid (roughly 50% of his total ice time), he receives the tougher D matchups. The guy puts up a boatload of points with McDavid, then more points getting the easier matchups. This is isnt really debatable.

All of Mac, Kuch, and Drais have hghlight YT clips, but we need a full season POV if were going to debate the Hart.

 

[tfwnogf]

Ive watched the games too and see McDavid and the play driver 90% of the time with Draisaitl being the finisher. No doubt, very important and a superstar still, but it is still Robin to Batman, Rantanen to MacKinnon, etc etc etc.

Have examples you can point to? It should be reasonably easy to look up GWG in one goal/empty net games. Were his GWG goal 3 in a 7-2 win or goal 3 with minutes remaining? OT and EN points obviously are weighted negatively. And again, my main argument, show me that when he is not on the ice with McDavid (roughly 50% of his total ice time), he receives the tougher D matchups. The guy puts up a boatload of points with McDavid, then more points getting the easier matchups. This is isnt really debatable.

All of Mac, Kuch, and Drais have hghlight YT clips, but we need a full season POV if were going to debate the Hart.

No specific examples, if you want to watch previous games be my guest. McDavid assisting on his goals, or the other way around doesn't seem to affect Hart voting. If it did, then all of Mackinnons points that Makar helps with are put into question too. Or McDavid winning the Hart when Drai put up 128 points. Or Drai winning the Hart while McDavid played 64 games.

But Hart voting isn't that complex. The voters look at what makes a good storyline or roll with that. This year Hart will probably go to Hellebyuck and his crazy season. 1st in all major goalie categories. Voters eat that up.

 

[Duke74]

McDavid over Draisaitl this year is a joke. Drai carried them when McDavid was dealing with some kind of injury. Without Drai they don't make the playoffs.

Ignore those that live under bridges. Just another person doing mental gymastics to discredit Draisaitl.