Proposal: Montreal - Columbus

[Viqsi]

I can't let you be the only one with a reputation of going off the wall when people try to devalue our whole team while pumping theirs up =p

Perhaps, but you can at least do yourself the courtesy of similarly making the reputation undeserved.

 

[Hello Johnny]

Theres a difference from should be doing than what it would cost to do so, yeah?

You said:

With the amazing emergence (not really, we all saw it coming) of Werenski, I can def see something like that happening. Dealing their young D for a proven goal-scorer.

And what I'm saying is that I can "def" not see that happening.

Sure, maybe that would be the cost, but we're not in the market for a guy like Patches so the price to us is irrelevant.

 

[Legend123]

You said:



And what I'm saying is that I can "def" not see that happening.

Sure, maybe that would be the cost, but we're not in the market for a guy like Patches so the price to us is irrelevant.

wut? I can see them dealing one of their good top Ds for a scorer. Doesnt mean they should or will.

 

[Hello Johnny]

All I'm saying is that I don't see that happening lol

 

[Legend123]

You would be wrong, because one is a center and the other is a winger, and the market is perpetually saturated with wingers and almost always has a strong demand for centers.



It's really quite simple. Nashville had no interest in a winger - it was a #1C or go home. That was their demand.

And the same is true of us now. We're not trading him for a winger. Period. It doesn't matter that the winger is MaxPac; he could be Alexander ****ing Ovechkin and the answer would be the same (albeit far more painful to give in that case). We need our #1RHD far more than we need another scoring winger, no matter who that winger may be. I get that this is a hard concept for folks with high-value wingers to spare and real team needs to meet, but you just don't get assets like that for wingers. We know. We've been there with Nash. For a recent example, go take a look at what it cost for Edmonton to finally get the top-pairing RHD they needed.

And before you come up with the usual false transitiveness fallacy - NO THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I THINK WE COULD GET OVECHKIN FOR JONES. THAT IS STUPID. It means strictly, exclusively, and exactly what I said - we do not need a winger, we desperately need to keep our #1RHD.

* * *​

Go around and find out which teams have a need or desire for a quality scoring winger, versus a need or desire for a young cost-controlled scoring center. And while you're at it, go find out how many quality scoring wingers might be available versus how many young cost-controlled scoring centers might be available. You might come back a tad surprised.

If we want a scoring winger in his mid-20s (we don't as we've got plenty, but just for the sake of argument), we have many options other than MaxPac. If folks want a young scoring center (like, say, Jenner), options are far less readily available. For example, JvR being potentially available in trade diminishes MacPac's trade value. It doesn't matter that MaxPac is a better player - they're both top-line scoring wingers, and so if that's a need I have to meet, then I have the luxury of dealing with Toronto instead of Montreal. I'll be paying for a lesser option, but I'd still get my need met and it'd be without paying through the nose for an incremental upgrade.
(EDIT: Or, put differently - I could get an 80% solution for $50, or a 90% solution for $100. Which is the more sensible selection, in general?)

I was never aware premium goal scorers were on the market in a time where goals are really tough to come by. But yeah you def know a lot more. The market is saturated with proven and premium goal scorers!! The preds wanted a goal scorer for their offensively inept team. All they had was Forsberg while having Weber, Josi and Jones. Had Pacs been offered, they would have taken it.
I didnt read all what u said cuz u know too much bs.

 

[Hello Johnny]

Had Pacs been offered, they would have taken it.

Nashville was known to be looking for a center.

 

[mikeyp24]

^^like said up there Nash wanted a young C and went for RNH also but they wanted a + for him because he wasn't the scorer ryjo was. They would have turned down a wing for Jones especially how much they valued Jones.

Perhaps, but you can at least do yourself the courtesy of similarly making the reputation undeserved.

Touche'

 

[Viqsi]

I was never aware premium goal scorers were on the market in a time where goals are really tough to come by. But yeah you def know a lot more. The market is saturated with proven and premium goal scorers!!

You keep making this mistake. It's not "goal scorers" versus some amorphous other category, it's "center" versus "winger". It is not up for debate that there are more wingers available than centers. And they are NOT interchangeable as assets.

The preds wanted a goal scorer for their offensively inept team. All they had was Forsberg while having Weber, Josi and Jones. Had Pacs been offered, they would have taken it.

Um. No. They turned down every winger offer made, because they already had (and have) James Neal as well as Forsberg, but they had to be centered by Fisher and/or Ribeiro. It really was #1C or nothing.

That's like suggesting that Montreal would happily take another goaltender in return if it were offered for MaxPac.

 

[jacks*]

Seen somebody comment this in another thread, think it's actually pretty decent for both teams. Mind you I haven't seen or heard much of Johnson in a while... If he's not still a solid #2, I don't think Montreal does this.

To MTL:
Jack Johnson
Boone Jenner

To CBJ:
Max Pacioretty
Nathan Beaulieu
David Desharnais

Habs get a legit puck mover for Weber , and a 2nd line center who's still improving, notched 30 goals last year and has some grit.
Our left side gets gutted, but with Lekhonen, Hudon, Carr, and Andrighetto there all with potential I think we'll manage. Also trading for a vet LW isn't that hard, especially with Plekanec now available to move.

Columbus get's an extremely cap friendly arguably top 5 left winger, and Desharnais, a solid stop gap center who's got great chemistry with Patches and can get atleast 50 points playing with him. Also get a potential top 4 puck moving dman.
They have Werenski and Murray, so I think they can take the hit on the left side.

What do you guys think?

What do i think? I think it's awfully lopsided sided in Columbus directions.

So we trade one of the top wingers in the game for a 2nd line center all because we get Jack Johnson for Beaulieu and DD.

 

[mikeyp24]

^Honestly if we were to do this trade if you traded a 3rd and took out DD and Beaulieu I'd rather that.

 

[DrTucker]

Johnson has been a rock. But Jenner has been a disappointment thus far (tho hes been better as of late). If Columbus wanna to deal for Pacs, its gonna cost them Murray+, or Jones. With the amazing emergence (not really, we all saw it coming) of Werenski, I can def see something like that happening. Dealing their young D for a proven goal-scorer.

Haha, no no he's not. Kessel IMO is the better player, but for arguments sake we'll say they are similar valued. Two good prospects, a 4th liner and a 1st is what Kessel got Toronto. Now take into account contracts and Montreal should be able to get something a little better. a little better isn't Murray+ on Jones.

In no world is Patches worth a top pairing D man in the league.

 

[DrTucker]

I think it's a good trade but CBJ may add a pick or a young prospect, maybe Oliver Bjorkstrand!

What about this one;

To CBJ:
Max Pacioretty
David Desharnais
Nathan Beaulieu
1st Pick 2017

To Montreal:
Ryan Murray
Scott Hartnell
Boone Jenner

Is it fair?

Hartnell - Galchenyuk - Radulov
Jenner - Plekanec/Hudon? - Gallagher
Byron - Danault - Lehkonen
Carr - Mitchell - Flynn

Murray - Weber
Markov - Petry
Emelin - Barberio

There is zero chance Columbus even thinks accepting that. That is laughably bad.

 

[mikeyp24]

It loads MTL though so I get why they do it.

 

[Legend123]

Haha, no no he's not. Kessel IMO is the better player, but for arguments sake we'll say they are similar valued. Two good prospects, a 4th liner and a 1st is what Kessel got Toronto. Now take into account contracts and Montreal should be able to get something a little better. a little better isn't Murray+ on Jones.

In no world is Patches worth a top pairing D man in the league.

Pacs on his contract is worth loads more than Kessel and his off ice issues. It was pretty much known Kessel was on the market due to the person he was and the contract he held. No one wanted him. You know nothing if you think you can use that example for all scoring wingers lmao. Btw Nash returned alot. Scoring wingers on cheap contracts (unlike Nash and Kessel) would return alot, esp those who can play both sides of the ice and provide good leadership.

 

[major major]

Pacs on his contract is worth loads more than Kessel and his off ice issues. It was pretty much known Kessel was on the market due to the person he was and the contract he held. No one wanted him. You know nothing if you think you can use that example for all scoring wingers lmao. Btw Nash returned alot. Scoring wingers on cheap contracts (unlike Nash and Kessel) would return alot, esp those who can play both sides of the ice and provide good leadership.

You're right that Pacioretty has much more trade value than Kessel. It's just that no team is going to trade a #1D or #1C for a #1W unless that wing is Benn or Kane level. Murray+ for Pacioretty is closer though - he's not a #1D.

 

[TT1]

Jack Johnson is terrible and we're not moving Pacioretty and Beaulieu for Jenner, move along now.

 

[mikeyp24]

Jack Johnson is terrible and we're not moving Pacioretty and Beaulieu for Jenner, move along now.

If JJ is terrible Beaulieu is still a CHL 2nd pair caliber. Be realistic here.

 

[Legend123]

You're right that Pacioretty has much more trade value than Kessel. It's just that no team is going to trade a #1D or #1C for a #1W unless that wing is Benn or Kane level. Murray+ for Pacioretty is closer though - he's not a #1D.

I never said Pacs will yield a #1C or #1D (unless that team paying for Pacs is desperate). But I said Jones for Pacs is good value. I dont consider Jones a legitimate #1D. It seems to me that labeling players as #1Ds is coming off as way too easy on these boards. There's no doubt hes a monster and has the potential on becoming a true #1D, but for me he isnt one yet.

 

[TT1]

If JJ is terrible Beaulieu is still a CHL 2nd pair caliber. Be realistic here.

JJ has already peaked, what you see is what you get. Beaulieu is 23 (still hasn't reached his peak) and is still an RFA.

Even if we were to substract Beaulieu from the deal it would be Pacioretty for Jenner, which is a joke.

 

[major major]

I never said Pacs will yield a #1C or #1D (unless that team paying for Pacs is desperate). But I said Jones for Pacs is good value. I dont consider Jones a legitimate #1D. It seems to me that labeling players as #1Ds is coming off as way too easy on these boards. There's no doubt hes a monster and has the potential on becoming a true #1D, but for me he isnt one yet.

He played like it before his injury this year, and has shown enough that I'm fairly certain he'll be one, and soon. If anything I'd say that he's worth more than your average #1D, given that he's so young and has room to be an elite #1D.

 

[mikeyp24]

JJ has already peaked, what you see is what you get. Beaulieu is 23 (still hasn't reached his peak) and is still an RFA.

Even if we were to substract Beaulieu from the deal it would be Pacioretty for Jenner, which is a joke.

JJ is as high quality 2nd pair D you will find. For years he had to play as a 1D with basically no one as a partner and played way to many minutes and even then he was still a pretty good player. Since the Jones acquisition he has shined on our 2nd pair whether it be with Savard or Murray. He has even played most of this year on his off side and without PP time just to accommodate the team and do what he can to help and has he helped alright. Perfect teammate and a great leader playing in a perfect role.

Beaulieu has room to grow this is true but if he were on the CBJ right now he would be fighting to start and if he did he would be our 6. And I have watched him play a lot last year because all the talk of him for Hartnell last year and I wasn't impressed and in the 3 games I saw him play this year he still hasn't developed into the guy he was advertised to become. He still has a chance to you are right but at 23 and being the same talent level never getting better or worse just being stagnant I see him as a career solid 3rd pairing. He will be in the NHL for years barring injury but never the guy he had potential to become. That's why I said take him and DD out of the trade.

A more likely Trade would be Jenner and JJ for Patches and maybe a 3rdish. Jenner is I think 24 (maybe 23) but on a good contract and has just put up 30 goals and yes he started slow but he has picked it up the last 2 games and JJ who is on a great value contract through next season and would be able to solidify your top 4 with markov, JMFJ, weber, Petry. That let's Beaulieu play in a better spot for him and pair him with emelin. Once Sergachev is ready to step in your D goes from unnoticeable to a very competitive group. Jenners value is less then patches but JJ is right there as a 3D which should bridge the value. Honestly I don't want the deal I'd rather keep our guys I think patches struggles with Torts as a coach where JJ thrives and Jenner had his best year with last year. But For the sake of fantasy trades and making fair value that's where she lies.

 

[TT1]

JJ is as high quality 2nd pair D you will find. For years he had to play as a 1D with basically no one as a partner and played way to many minutes and even then he was still a pretty good player. Since the Jones acquisition he has shined on our 2nd pair whether it be with Savard or Murray. He has even played most of this year on his off side and without PP time just to accommodate the team and do what he can to help and has he helped alright. Perfect teammate and a great leader playing in a perfect role.

Beaulieu has room to grow this is true but if he were on the CBJ right now he would be fighting to start and if he did he would be our 6. And I have watched him play a lot last year because all the talk of him for Hartnell last year and I wasn't impressed and in the 3 games I saw him play this year he still hasn't developed into the guy he was advertised to become. He still has a chance to you are right but at 23 and being the same talent level never getting better or worse just being stagnant I see him as a career solid 3rd pairing. He will be in the NHL for years barring injury but never the guy he had potential to become. That's why I said take him and DD out of the trade.

A more likely Trade would be Jenner and JJ for Patches and maybe a 3rdish. Jenner is I think 24 (maybe 23) but on a good contract and has just put up 30 goals and yes he started slow but he has picked it up the last 2 games and JJ who is on a great value contract through next season and would be able to solidify your top 4 with markov, JMFJ, weber, Petry. That let's Beaulieu play in a better spot for him and pair him with emelin. Once Sergachev is ready to step in your D goes from unnoticeable to a very competitive group. Jenners value is less then patches but JJ is right there as a 3D which should bridge the value. Honestly I don't want the deal I'd rather keep our guys I think patches struggles with Torts as a coach where JJ thrives and Jenner had his best year with last year. But For the sake of fantasy trades and making fair value that's where she lies.

That'd be an easy no for me but I don't value JJ very highly.

 

[mikeyp24]

And I completely understand the no and understand why you might not value him high because honestly JJ has a reputation on here from his play style when he played in LA. They haven't seen him play the way he has here and try and use fancy stats to prove a point.

I wasn't trying to argue as to why MTL fans should say yes... just that it wasnt laughable or hang up immediately as they were saying it was actually favored against the jackets by giving up valuable assets and only getting patches in return.

 

[TT1]

And I completely understand the no and understand why you might not value him high because honestly JJ has a reputation on here from his play style when he played in LA. They haven't seen him play the way he has here and try and use fancy stats to prove a point.

I wasn't trying to argue as to why MTL fans should say yes... just that it wasnt laughable or hang up immediately as they were saying it was actually favored against the jackets by giving up valuable assets and only getting patches in return.

Fair enough but if we were to give up one of our better players we'd expect to get one of your better players back aswell (no offense to Jenner who i really like), if a Saad/Murray type player isnt coming back (at the same time I wouldn't ask for someone like Werenski) then moving Patches doesn't make much sense.

Moving Patches doesn't make much sense in general because we wouldn't have anyone to replace him and he's a very efficient player for his caphit.

 

[mikeyp24]

Understandable Jenner is a polarizing player because some want him on the wing some want him at center and yes he scored 30 goals but a lot of those were in the dirty area fight for them and not as many wrist shots on 2 on 2s persay so some people are afraid of a 1 year outlier where he may be a 20-20 guy with grit so I understand some will underrate and some will overrate.

Also I get Patches is literally most of your offense as far as main goal scorer and trading that but not getting back something to replace that isn't going to work PLUS why trade him just to replace him you will want an incentive to move your captain and main point production by maybe getting a little less goal scoring but maybe a upgrade on D or something. Makes perfect sense.

Personally I am currently only willing to trade D because we have a solid 5 guys and moving 1 if it truly helps us improve more so I honestly would trade Savard, Murray, or JJ but I would have to know for sure the player would work well with our team and with Torts and after the WC I don't think Torts and Patches work great.

Our fans have tried over the last 2 or 3 years to make some kinda trade and we just never end up being good partners haha.

If Alex G ever becomes available though make the CBJ your first call I think something can be done =p