HF Habs: Montreal Canadiens Hockey Ops - Part 3

[WeThreeKings]

It’s on him to not realize that Barron was dogshit for 3 years. Like brother, watch the games and trade him if he’s not good

Forsling was dog shit for a long time, too.

You've failed to answer the question as to why a rebuilding team should be throwing away young players, specifically big centers, toolsy RD, at low value points simply because you don't like how they are playing at this point in time?

I'd much rather watch Barron bust in house than trade him for a 3rd round pick, that we don't need, and see him blossom elsewhere.

We don't need middling picks, we've had enough of them, we have a boat load more. We can afford to develop and wait and see here.

What's the rush?

 

[Theodore450]

Kovacevic was not good when he was Baron's age. I don't disagree with you that saying "Barron is ahead of the curve" is at best a wierd thing to say but pretending that a rebuilding team should dump Barron to keep Kavacevic is not any better. There's not a single rebuilding team in the history of hockey who would have kept Kovacevic over Barron.

I can honesty find you countless examples of rebuilding team trading off a low Iq scrub to keep a smarter bottom paring D.


If the habs were not rebuilding and Barron wasn’t a 1st round pick we wouldn’t be having this conversation because he would be in Europe.

Rebuilding means “building” at some point you need to create a roster and kova will always have a role in the nhl.
Ask yourself this, how many teams would dress Barron and how many teams would win with him.

Forsling was dog shit for a long time, too.

You've failed to answer the question as to why a rebuilding team should be throwing away young players, specifically big centers, toolsy RD, at low value points simply because you don't like how they are playing at this point in time?

I'd much rather watch Barron bust in house than trade him for a 3rd round pick, that we don't need, and see him blossom elsewhere.

We don't need middling picks, we've had enough of them, we have a boat load more. We can afford to develop and wait and see here.

What's the rush?

A bust a bust. That’s why we pay scouts to bet on players making it. He will never be a regale nhler. Give ice time to other young players while having guys around shield them.
He’s not suddenly gonna learn how to defend. The rush is having an entire green d core when you know 6 spots will be occupied in a game.



Also Forsling was never a stupid player

 

[Miller Time]

It’s so hard to have conversation if we can’t find middle ground.

Saying things like “Barron is ahead of the curve” tells a lot

I'm not sure what you mean by "finding middle ground".

Some things are factually correct or incorrect, it's ok to acknowledge that.

Re. Barron
To clarify, I meant ahead of the curve relative to his draft class (& the ones immediately before/after his).

Of the 2020 draft class of NHL dmen, he is clearly in the top end of the cohort.
If we narrow it to the top 2 rounds, of the 14 dmen selected, he's ahead of all but one picked after him (Faber, arguably the top dman of the class at this point), and ahead of 1, arguably 2 picked before him.

If we are talking about his progression, in the context of criticizing the team for a perceived "poor" progression, that needs to be grounded against realistic expectations. If a dman has established a level of play that puts him in the top 1/2 of the players at their position within a 3 draft window, does that not situate them "ahead of the curve"?

Stating that does not mean he is performing at a level high enough to be a top 4 roster fixture, which is what we hope he'll become & what the team was likely hoping for in acquiring him.

Totally fair to say that he hasn't progressed as well as desired. Totally unfair and ungrounded to suggest that his progression has been "poor".

 

[LaP]

I can honesty find you countless examples of rebuilding team trading off a low Iq scrub to keep a smarter bottom paring D.


If the habs were not rebuilding and Barron wasn’t a 1st round pick we wouldn’t be having this conversation because he would be in Europe.

Rebuilding means “building” at some point you need to create a roster and kova will always have a role in the nhl.
Ask yourself this, how many teams would dress Barron and how many teams would win with him.


A bust a bust. That’s why we pay scouts to bet on players making it. He will never be a regale nhler. Give ice time to other young players while having guys around shield them.
He’s not suddenly gonna learn how to defend. The rush is having an entire green d core when you know 6 spots will be occupied in a game.



Also Forsling was never a stupid player

So far not a single team have dressed Kova as a top 6 dman and have win with him. That's going to be the first season if he last the whole year. And all 31 other teams evaluated him as a 7th dman or else they would have offered more. Let that sink in.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I can honesty find you countless examples of rebuilding team trading off a low Iq scrub to keep a smarter bottom paring D.


If the habs were not rebuilding and Barron wasn’t a 1st round pick we wouldn’t be having this conversation because he would be in Europe.

Rebuilding means “building” at some point you need to create a roster and kova will always have a role in the nhl.
Ask yourself this, how many teams would dress Barron and how many teams would win with him.


A bust a bust. That’s why we pay scouts to bet on players making it. He will never be a regale nhler. Give ice time to other young players while having guys around shield them.
He’s not suddenly gonna learn how to defend. The rush is having an entire green d core when you know 6 spots will be occupied in a game.



Also Forsling was never a stupid player

He was so stupid he was waived. His team gave up on him and then he figured it out.

Your plan is to waive Barron or trade him for peanuts, because you, who is smarter than every pro scout in the organization, have identified that he's a bust?

They are giving ice time to other young players, which young player is not getting ice time right now because of Justin Barron?

Logan Mailloux had his chance and needs way more development in the AHL.
Adam Engstrom has like 20 games in North America to his name.

It makes 0 sense to just give up on Justin Barron right now, in the middle of a rebuild. The time someone comes and pushes him out, then he can go. But if you have evaluation time, you use it, because if he does hit, and you turned on him too early, that's a mistake you can't take back as a rebuilding team.

 

[Theodore450]

I'm not sure what you mean by "finding middle ground".

Some things are factually correct or incorrect, it's ok to acknowledge that.

Re. Barron
To clarify, I meant ahead of the curve relative to his draft class (& the ones immediately before/after his).

Of the 2020 draft class of NHL dmen, he is clearly in the top end of the cohort.
If we narrow it to the top 2 rounds, of the 14 dmen selected, he's ahead of all but one picked after him (Faber, arguably the top dman of the class at this point), and ahead of 1, arguably 2 picked before him.

If we are talking about his progression, in the context of criticizing the team for a perceived "poor" progression, that needs to be grounded against realistic expectations. If a dman has established a level of play that puts him in the top 1/2 of the players at their position within a 3 draft window, does that not situate them "ahead of the curve"?

Stating that does not mean he is performing at a level high enough to be a top 4 roster fixture, which is what we hope he'll become & what the team was likely hoping for in acquiring him.

Totally fair to say that he hasn't progressed as well as desired. Totally unfair and ungrounded to suggest that his progression has been "poor".

Dude, if you progress from a bottom pairing AHL player to a top pairing AHL player you’re still a bust. He is not and will not ever be a quality nhl player.
Dumb is dumb.

I’ve seen busts play out for the last 20 years.
I’ve watched Florida (my 2nd fav team) go through this.
If the guy can’t play, he can’t play. Nothing is gonna change that.

Good orgs see this and sell them to some sucker.

 

[ReHabs]

It’s so hard to have conversation if we can’t find middle ground.

Saying things like “Barron is ahead of the curve” tells a lot

It tells you everything about the intent of the person taking it upon himself to call things “bad takes”.

 

[Theodore450]

He was so stupid he was waived. His team gave up on him and then he figured it out.

Your plan is to waive Barron or trade him for peanuts, because you, who is smarter than every pro scout in the organization, have identified that he's a bust?

They are giving ice time to other young players, which young player is not getting ice time right now because of Justin Barron?

Logan Mailloux had his chance and needs way more development in the AHL.
Adam Engstrom has like 20 games in North America to his name.

It makes 0 sense to just give up on Justin Barron right now, in the middle of a rebuild. The time someone comes and pushes him out, then he can go. But if you have evaluation time, you use it, because if he does hit, and you turned on him too early, that's a mistake you can't take back as a rebuilding team.

Their games and projections are completely different. Pretending like their development patterns are the same is just you not giving charity to my argument. You’re being disingenuous and instead of trying to find a common ground for debate you’re gonna continue to send personal attacks my way because you don’t agree with me.

A bust is a bust

 

[Miller Time]

Sure it was darker back then and Hugo has cleaned up most of the mess, but not sure I agree with you that future is bright.

I wouldn't even say we have one of the best U25 groups in the league. They're all depth players. Who in our group besides demidov has elite potential? Maybe Hage that's it?

That's an opinion. I don't share it, but if that's what you think than of course you don't think the team is in a good place for the future.

Suzuki, CC, Slaf, Demidov, Reinbacher, Hutson, Fowler, Guhle, Hage all have potential to become top 10 players at their respective positions.

Dach, Newhook, Heineman, Strubble, Barron, Beck, Mesar, Xhekaj, Engstrom, Konyushkov, Roy, Mailloux & a few others have potential to be quality secondary players (middle 6, top 4), and many of them have ceilings that could push them into top line/top pair status by their mid-late 20's

Very few organizations have that kind of talent & depth in 25U assets.

Our future is bright relative to the rest of the league.

Too many holes this team has right now to be confident they're on the right track. A losing culture is also something they have to fix and we know by now that's easier said than done.

The present and the future are not the same thing.

Edmonton, Toronto, New York, Vegas, Florida... All teams with elite established talent, all teams with very sparse 25U talent...

Future has POTENTIAL to be bright. I want to see how they handle 2025 draft + summer. That will be huge turning point for us. We have the assets to wheel and deal but Hugo gotta make the right moves. Can't afford to lose assets for more duds like Dach/Barron/Newhook

Indeed. Future isn't promised. It could all go to crap... If the team takes the approach the impatient fans want, we could very well squander it.

Fortunately, it appears that Gorton & Hughes have the kind of vision and resolve to stay the course.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Their games and projections are completely different. Pretending like their development patterns are the same is just you not giving charity to my argument. You’re being disingenuous and instead of trying to find a common ground for debate you’re gonna continue to send personal attacks my way because you don’t agree with me.

A bust is a bust

Forsling went on waivers so that should mean he's a bust right?

What about Verhaege? Bounced around multiple organizations. Bust is a bust, right?

You just decided that right now you don't like the player and how they are playing, that it's impossible for young players, let alone centerman coming off a big injury, or young defenseman, to ever develop and get better so you just have to get rid of them right away.

What is the harm in giving these guys all the evaluation runway you have? So you don't make a mistake like a Forsling?

Saying 'a bust is a bust' a thousand times over doesn't answer that simple question.

 

[Miller Time]

Dude, if you progress from a bottom pairing AHL player to a top pairing AHL player you’re still a bust. He is not and will not ever be a quality nhl player.
Dumb is dumb.

Sure.
But to suggest a player that makes that kind of progression hasn't progressed is dumb.

Wether said progression is enough to be an asset worth keeping is a completely different point.

I’ve seen busts play out for the last 20 years.
I’ve watched Florida (my 2nd fav team) go through this.

Then you know about that guy Forsling... You know, the one that had progressed LESS than Barron at the same age.

If the guy can’t play, he can’t play. Nothing is gonna change that.

See Forsling, Gustav.
Also Bennett, Sam.
Also Montour, Brandon.
Also Vaerheage, Carter.

For a fan of the Panthers, a team that won a cup by collecting players in their mid 20's that were discarded or undervalued by their former teams, only to become core contributors on their cup winning run, you seem poorly informed on what the typical player progression curve actually looks like.

Good orgs see this and sell them to some sucker.

So are the Panthers a bad organization because they collected a bunch of players like Barron on their way to a cup

 

[Theodore450]

Forsling went on waivers so that should mean he's a bust right?

What about Verhaege? Bounced around multiple organizations. Bust is a bust, right?

You just decided that right now you don't like the player and how they are playing, that it's impossible for young players, let alone centerman coming off a big injury, or young defenseman, to ever develop and get better so you just have to get rid of them right away.

What is the harm in giving these guys all the evaluation runway you have? So you don't make a mistake like a Forsling?

Saying 'a bust is a bust' a thousand times over doesn't answer that simple question.

(mod) Nobody is talking about Dach here? This conversation is about Barron try and stay on topic, difficult as that may be for you while trying to defend your agenda.

Barron was on the team for 3 years and his iq has not changed.
Since I actually follow the panthers, I can answer that for you.


Forsling was never stupid
Swaggy was a classic case of a guy learning to be able to handle the league. PS he was a late pick.

How much runaway do you give this guy? Another 3 years? Grooming him for what?
We have offensive D

Sure.
But to suggest a player that makes that kind of progression hasn't progressed is dumb.

Wether said progression is enough to be an asset worth keeping is a completely different point.


Then you know about that guy Forsling... You know, the one that had progressed LESS than Barron at the same age.


See Forsling, Gustav.
Also Bennett, Sam.
Also Montour, Brandon.
Also Vaerheage, Carter.

For a fan of the Panthers, a team that won a cup by collecting players in their mid 20's that were discarded or undervalued by their former teams, only to become core contributors on their cup winning run, you seem poorly informed on what the typical player progression curve actually looks like.


So are the Panthers a bad organization because they collected a bunch of players like Barron on their way to a cup

It’s hilarious how you can’t get the simple fact that hockey IQ is essentially for the nhl.


You just named 4 extremely smart players congrats. Also Montour and Bennet where already quality NHLers unlikes force fed Barron

 

[Andy]

I don’t even think it’s low IQ for Barron. He just has no poise with the puck and isn’t very physically strong.

 

[WeThreeKings]

(mod) Nobody is talking about Dach here? This conversation is about Barron try and stay on topic, difficult as that may be for you while trying to defend your agenda.

Barron was on the team for 3 years and his iq has not changed.
Since I actually follow the panthers, I can answer that for you.


Forsling was never stupid
Swaggy was a classic case of a guy learning to be able to handle the league. PS he was a late pick.

How much runaway do you give this guy? Another 3 years? Grooming him for what?
We have offensive D


It’s hilarious how you can’t get the simple fact that hockey IQ is essentially for the nhl.


You just named 4 extremely smart players congrats. Also Montour and Bennet where already quality NHLers unlikes force fed Barron

I give Barron until he's pushed out by Mailloux, Engstrom or Reinbacher; at minimum.

That has not happened yet. So therefore I will keep giving him ice time, keep developing him and seeing if more exposure, experience and repetitions at this level brings the production on ice in line with his tools.

His value isn't high enough in a trade to warrant cutting bait before we have to do so. There's no advantage to getting rid of him now vs. when we actually have to get rid of him because he's been passed by other players in the organization.

Nor does having Barron in my organization at this time stop me from trying to trade for a Jiricek, or trading for Rasmus Andersson, or if a floor raising RD is available on free agency.

 

[Theodore450]

I give Barron until he's pushed out by Mailloux, Engstrom or Reinbacher; at minimum.

That has not happened yet. So therefore I will keep giving him ice time, keep developing him and seeing if more exposure, experience and repetitions at this level brings the production on ice in line with his tools.

His value isn't high enough in a trade to warrant cutting bait before we have to do so. There's no advantage to getting rid of him now vs. when we actually have to get rid of him because he's been passed by other players in the organization.

Nor does having Barron in my organization at this time stop me from trying to trade for a Jiricek, or trading for Rasmus Andersson, or if a floor raising RD is available on free agency.

I never said trade him? Nobody would want him anyways. This entire conversation is shitting on the fact that our management was dumb enough to trade for him to begin with.


I will say this, there is a positive value in setting roles in an org. And having him play defenceless hockey on the 3rd and 2nd pair isn’t good for the culture or the future of how the team plays


ALSO: there’s nothing wrong with a bust for bust trade. It may work out. Maybe you fool a team into thinking he’s not completely incapable and find someone that is undervalued who actually has a brain. Or does that not work with you?

 

[ReHabs]

I don’t even think it’s low IQ for Barron. He just has no poise with the puck and isn’t very physically strong.

He’s afraid of contact and panics. Whatever you want to call it, it isn’t how a smart player performs.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I never said trade him? Nobody would want him anyways. This entire conversation is shitting on the fact that our management was dumb enough to trade for him to begin with.


I will say this, there is a positive value in setting roles in an org. And having him play defenceless hockey on the 3rd and 2nd pair isn’t good for the culture or the future of how the team plays


ALSO: there’s nothing wrong with a bust for bust trade. It may work out. Maybe you fool a team into thinking he’s not completely incapable and find someone that is undervalued who actually has a brain. Or does that not work with you?

Dumb enough to trade for him? He's a toolsy, tall, RD.. those guys are hard to get which is why they almost always get overdrafted.

That's some insane revisionist history.

 

[Theodore450]

Dumb enough to trade for him? He's a toolsy, tall, RD.. those guys are hard to get which is why they almost always get overdrafted.

That's some insane revisionist history.

I’ve been consistent with my opinion since the trade .

He’s a weak low IQ right handed shot

 

[Colezuki]

I’ve been consistent with my opinion since the trade .

He’s a weak low IQ right handed shot

Your take is bad, and you should feel bad, you keep referencing they can just play

Montour was hated by the sabres while he was there,

Want proof - Sabres board 2020

Montour didn't figure it out till he was nearly 27, only then did he start to develop to what he is now, to WTK point we have no rush to move right now so short term don't let things continue to develop and go from there

 

[hvac412]

what's really scary is they seem to have made the same mistake with Newhook and to some extent Dach when it comes to hockey IQ.And there's the whole NO EXPERIANCE coaching staff, ....what could possibly go wrong ....good times

I never said trade him? Nobody would want him anyways. This entire conversation is shitting on the fact that our management was dumb enough to trade for him to begin with.


I will say this, there is a positive value in setting roles in an org. And having him play defenceless hockey on the 3rd and 2nd pair isn’t good for the culture or the future of how the team plays


ALSO: there’s nothing wrong with a bust for bust trade. It may work out. Maybe you fool a team into thinking he’s not completely incapable and find someone that is undervalued who actually has a brain. Or does that not work with you?

 

[Theodore450]

Your take is bad, and you should feel bad, you keep referencing they can just play

Montour was hated by the sabres while he was there,

Want proof - Sabres board 2020

Montour didn't figure it out till he was nearly 27, only then did he start to develop to what he is now, to WTK point we have no rush to move right now so short term don't let things continue to develop and go from there

Using Buffalo culture as an example is hilarious. You do realize they paid a 1st round pick to acquire him right?

 

[Miller Time]

It’s hilarious how you can’t get the simple fact that hockey IQ is essentially for the nhl.

Who are you responding to? I haven't mentioned "hockey IQ" in any of our back and forth. I think you are confused.

You just named 4 extremely smart players congrats.

So smart that their respective teams didn't think than worth keeping.

You just highlighted why some perspectives are completely ungrounded, congrats.

Also Montour and Bennet where already quality NHLers unlikes force fed Barron

Nope. Try again, this time with facts instead of fantasy.

Bennett was 10th in ice time among Calgary forwards his last two years before being traded. Consistently under 30pts (actual and pace) each year except his rookie season... You know, because progression and impact are not linear for young players...

Montour, in his 23-24-25 year old seasons in Buffalo, was 4th in average ice time for the non playoff Sabres... They thought so highly of his play that they traded him for a 3rd round pick in his 25 year old season.

 

[Vachon23]

Even Tourigny is cut from the similar cloth of guys we've had before. I don't think anyone is chomping at the bit to get Tourigny in the organization.

I personally see 3 options right know for MSL replacement when he will go

1. André Tourigny

2. Pascal Vincent

3. Sylvain Favreau, if they decide to promote Vincent with MSL or if he gets a job elsewhere in the AHL or as AC in the NHL

 

[Theodore450]

Who are you responding to? I haven't mentioned "hockey IQ" in any of our back and forth. I think you are confused.


So smart that their respective teams didn't think than worth keeping.

You just highlighted why some perspectives are completely ungrounded, congrats.


Nope. Try again, this time with facts instead of fantasy.

Bennett was 10th in ice time among Calgary forwards his last two years before being traded. Consistently under 30pts (actual and pace) each year except his rookie season... You know, because progression and impact are not linear for young players...

Montour, in his 23-24-25 year old seasons in Buffalo, was 4th in average ice time for the non playoff Sabres... They thought so highly of his play that they traded him for a 3rd round pick in his 25 year old season.

You’re dancing around my argument.
Those players had IQ , they could play in the nhl .
Bennet saw ice time in the PLAYOFFS
Montour was trade for 1st round pick, because he was actually good.

I mention hockey IQ because your purposely ignoring it

 

[Miller Time]

I don’t even think it’s low IQ for Barron. He just has no poise with the puck and isn’t very physically strong.

Ironically, his hockey smarts were one of his biggest assessed strengths as a prospect.

I think some posters are confused about what drives, or inhibits, performance outcomes...