OT: MN High School Hockey Thread
- Thread starter gopherman23
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I recommend the following 70 (!) page thread on the HS hockey forum debating the Hermantown issue. I believe the people arguing for Hermantown to move up easily make all the best arguments. Judge for yourself.
The Hermantown Thread - Page 70 - HighSchoolHockeyForums.com
The Hermantown Thread - Page 70 - HighSchoolHockeyForums.com
GordieGallant
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2Pair
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- Oct 8, 2017
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Yep, just like it's everyone else's choice to think less of them for making that choice.
Northerner
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- Feb 23, 2017
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They're basically the new Hill it seems like.
I've been a proponent of a Private-only State tourney.
Then have an A and AA, for publics. Then the winners of all tournaments play each other at the end.
I enjoyed that. Especially this paragraph.
"It's a carefully sculpted public image Hermantown takes pains to portray, and they get real quiet when the truth is laid out for all to see. I see it over and over again. They don't want to talk about rampant open enrollment and transfers, they don't want to talk about Bruce Plante whining, they don't want to talk about documented recruiting problems at the youth levels, they don't want to talk about the "AA at youth, then A at high school" mystery, they don't want to talk about program pillar Scott Pionk speaking at a school board meeting and saying that what Hermantown is doing in Class A is "scholastic bullying", they don't want to talk about "crappy Range programs" like Greenway and Hibbing having several top 2-top 5 Class A teams the last few years, or that Hibbing has produced as many NHL-caliber players as Hermantown has the last 7 years. There is no end to what Hermantown fans don't want to talk about."
This discussion is Hermantown because they're the most recent offender.
Previous offenders leading the discussion were STA, Breck, Warroad etc. This isn't a recent only discussion, this is a discussion ongoing since the birth of the two class system because of broken rules failing to achieve the intent of the change to begin with.
If there is consistently an issue, it will be repeatedly brought up, and the most apparent offender of the moment will dominate the discussion.
They are playing by the rules. Ok, I get that... that doesn't mean the rules shouldn't be changed to achieve the original intent of going to the two class system in the first place.
If you abandon that intent, then you make a mockery of the system. The current setup is making a mockery of the system.
District 5
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- Mar 1, 2014
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It's a little difficult to build your program when your best players get plucked.
If they moved up to 7AA, that section would be a must watch with Hermantown, GR, Duluth East, Elk River, Andover. That will also make 7A more competitive. If you pull kids from other schools, why not compete at the top level? They know that if they are in 7AA their annual trip to St. Paul is harder to achieve.
Hermantown has been to state 10 out of the last 11 years in 7A. Their last loss in the regular season to a class A team: January 11th, 2013.
The best players would still get plucked as Hermantown would now want to win at the AA level. And again...it's not their fault if the 7A teams can't compete.
Breck Warroad and STA get brought up here. One moved up...Warroad hasn't dominated for years now and Breck doesn't have a title in the last decade. It's cyclical and the new Hermantown will happen and there will be complaining about them.
The solution is not "move up once your too good" because you won't always be that good.
The solution is, if you prove you complete at that level, you play at that level, if you can't, you don't.
If the cycle happens to them and they go on a down swing, you move them back down. How is this so difficult to comprehend?
The system in broken and fails to achieve the entire intent of the two class system. If you fail to achieve the intent, then you lost all reason to even have it.
Fix it, or go back to a single class tournament.
So you are just bouncing teams back and forth based on how good they are...that makes the Class A tourney irrelevant as it's now like the NIT instead of what it was intended to be which is "small school"
That's based on enrollment. You're trying to fix what isn't broken because you don't like teams being "too good." That's not a problem the State Tourney needs to fix.
I'm saying, it should be both.
It's already the NIT ANYWAY. Why do you think there's such a vast attendance difference between the two classes? It isn't the schools filling the arena when AA plays.
When it was lobbied to move from 1 class to two, it was claimed that small schools simply couldn't compete. That is true for many, but has never been true for all.
The small schools that cannot compete at that level over a period of time should get the option. Those who prove success vs AA teams consistently don't get that option.
This isn't based on tournament record, but based on overall success in games played. Movement wouldn't be "frequent" if a team just has a few down pst season years, as such movement would require regular season to be affected as well.
It's still fixing a problem that isn't there except in fans minds who don't like it. It should be based on a fixed standard (enrollment) not some arbitrary "you're too good" standard.
That fixed standard fails to achieve the goal that was behind creating the two class system, so it absolutely fixes what is actually broken.
They set a goal to fix something most thought was not broken. They implemented a plan, the first plan was a disaster, they changed the plan, the new plan only partially achieved the goal, they never adjusted since.
They should be trying to achieve the original goal for changing things in the first place. If they don't, why did they change things at all?
They broke something that never needed fixing to achieve something they have no desire to achieve.
Northerner
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- Feb 23, 2017
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Would you have such a problem if Hermantown wasn't taking kids from local programs?
To me, that is the crux of the matter. I don't have a problem with Hermantown in A; I DO have a problem that they take kids from other programs. It's kind of sad - it kind of reminds me of the NBA teams making their "super teams" by taking good players from lesser/small market teams.
That is part of the reason why I think Privates are a different beast altogether. Some of them should definitely be in AA, or frankly they should all just be put in their own, different state tourney.
Kids moving is a whole different can of worms that is much harder to control.
You can put controls on what class a program is in much more easily than you can restrict freedom of choice for people.
I'm for the more simple solution first.
Northerner
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This is fun: 1991 State Sections. I was messing around trying to see if Hermantown ever had much success in the past - I recall their program was never of any significance. Got me to wondering if there were any resources out there with past State Sections. This was the only I could find (not digging that deep though to be honest):
Hill-Murray Pioneer Hockey: 1991 Minnesota Playoffs
My neigbor who is a bit older than me was part of that '91 Govies team. I still talk to him. He reminded me that Hill barely got out of their section by the skin of their teeth - 2OT win over FL, OT win over Park, then a 4-3 barn burner against Brian Bonin and WBL...only to go on to thrash the Govies in RD1 and go on to win State. I remember that '91 State Tourney so much it was one of the most memorable days of my life - getting off school, going to Civic Cen and not being able to get tix, coming home with my dad to watch it on TV. God the East Side was such a special place back then, it is a rotting corpse at this point.
Notice some of the schools in those sections (prior to the 2 class system) as well. Bagley, Ely, all the St. Paul and Minneapolis schools. lol. I find that old Sections stuff fascinating - the state was so different back then.
You really had to win a brutal tournament in all those sections back then just to sniff state. It was such an accomplishment.
Anyways I digress. I don't think Hermantown was ever good....now they are having success, and I think down the road their success will be gone as well. Part of the reason I think they should stay in A. That said, and I will reiterate, they should not be recruiting or taking studs from neighboring programs. I think that is quite unethical. But whatever, none of us are going to stop them.
Hill-Murray Pioneer Hockey: 1991 Minnesota Playoffs
My neigbor who is a bit older than me was part of that '91 Govies team. I still talk to him. He reminded me that Hill barely got out of their section by the skin of their teeth - 2OT win over FL, OT win over Park, then a 4-3 barn burner against Brian Bonin and WBL...only to go on to thrash the Govies in RD1 and go on to win State. I remember that '91 State Tourney so much it was one of the most memorable days of my life - getting off school, going to Civic Cen and not being able to get tix, coming home with my dad to watch it on TV. God the East Side was such a special place back then, it is a rotting corpse at this point.
Notice some of the schools in those sections (prior to the 2 class system) as well. Bagley, Ely, all the St. Paul and Minneapolis schools. lol. I find that old Sections stuff fascinating - the state was so different back then.
You really had to win a brutal tournament in all those sections back then just to sniff state. It was such an accomplishment.
Anyways I digress. I don't think Hermantown was ever good....now they are having success, and I think down the road their success will be gone as well. Part of the reason I think they should stay in A. That said, and I will reiterate, they should not be recruiting or taking studs from neighboring programs. I think that is quite unethical. But whatever, none of us are going to stop them.
recruiting goes on at all programs that can do it. I know of a few stories. One or two are pretty gnarly. My eldest son was approached by multiple teams in gr. 8( once you get to gr. 9 you have to sit out a year of Varsity if you transfer) about moving to other team's programs, both public and private. It involves getting an address in the town involved for the publics, and attending the school of course .
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GordieGallant
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Pretty sure I was at that Hill Murray-WBL game at the Fairgrounds Coliseum. Brian Bonin was one of the best high school players I've seen. Hill will be getting a taste of their own medicine with Gentry Academy drawing top players from the East Metro.
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Northerner
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Site is showing it was at Met. Johnsons section was like the only one that didn't get to play at the Met which I think was kinda sad for them. Oh well at least the boys got in.
GordieGallant
Registered User
Section Finals at the Met? Don't recall that, but if true I know I wasn't there.
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