MMA P4P GOAT Rankings (2015): #2

[kurt]

Who is the #2 pound-for-pound greatest MMA athlete of all time?

2011 thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/sh...d.php?t=918184

#1 = Jon Jones http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1988749
Record: 21-1
Undefeated Streak: 22* (1 loss due to DQ)
UFC Title Defenses: 8
Notable Wins: Rua (UFC LHW Champ, PRIDE GP champ), Jackson (UFC LHW Champ), Machida (UFC LHW Champ), Evans (UFC LHW Champ), Belfort (UFC LHW Champ), Cormier (UFC LHW Champ, Strikeforce GP Champ)
Comments: Issues outside the cage, but inside the cage there is no question to his dominance from 2009-2015.

My nominations for #2 are the the following:

Fedor Emelianenko
Record: 34-4-1
Undefeated Streak: 33* (TK "loss" due to cut from illegal strike, tournament format required a winner to advance so could not be ruled a no contest)
UFC Title Defenses: N/A
Notable Wins: Nogueira x2 (PRIDE & Interim UFC HW Champ), Coleman (UFC HW Champ), Randleman (UFC HW Champ), Sylvia (UFC HW Champ), Arlovski (UFC HW Champ), Filipovic (PRIDE GP champ), Hunt, Arona, Schilt
Comments: Probably a natural LHW. Dominant from 2000-2009. Biggest criticism is not fighting top competition from 2007 onward.

Anderson Silva
Record: 33-6-1
Undefeated Streak: 20* (17 if you exclude his DQ for an illegal upkick)
UFC Title Defenses: 11* (10 if you exclude Lutter fight where he missed weight)
Notable Wins: Henderson (PRIDE MW & WW Champ, SF LHW Champ), Franklin x2 (UFC MW Champ), Belfort (UFC LHW Champ), Griffin (UFC LHW Champ), Okami, Newton (UFC WW Champ), Marquardt (SF WW Champ), Maia, Sonnen x2
Comments: Probably a natural LHW. Dominant from 2000-2009. Biggest criticism is not fighting top competition from 2007 onward.

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[kurt]

I added Demetrius Johnson to Jones' spot. I think the following will all need to be added as fighters are voted in - Wideman, Rousey, Frank Shamrock (should arguably be in the list already over Tito Ortiz), Lawler, etc.

 

[MD thaivuN]

Chose GSP:

beating Carlos Condit, Jake Shields, Nick Diaz, Johnny Hendricks (controversial i know, but a win is a win), BJ Penn is a hell of a resume when it comes to a list of high-end skilled guys

 

[Avs_19]

Going with Anderson here. Everyone has their own criteria they like to use and for me I put more emphasis on finishes. GSP also completely dominated his opponents and may have even fought some tougher guys but Anderson was just running through fools with ease.

 

[darko]

Fedor

 

[I am the Liquor]

Please don't add women to the list. Also Royce needs serious consideration. Guy fought and dominated heavyweights as a welterweight. That pretty much is the definition of PFP goat.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Chose GSP:

beating Carlos Condit, Jake Shields, Nick Diaz, Johnny Hendricks (controversial i know, but a win is a win), BJ Penn is a hell of a resume when it comes to a list of high-end skilled guys

Matt Hughes? **** Hendricks. How many successful title defenses does he have?

 

[jw2]

As time goes on, GSP is creeping higher on my list... If only he tried to finish more...

 

[kurt]

Matt Hughes? **** Hendricks. How many successful title defenses does he have?

Hughes' wins aren't all amazing either, and his record vs. BJ kinda counts against him. I don't think you can vote Hughes in until Penn is in, but some people may see it differently.

 

[kurt]

I'm kinda amazed by how Fedor is viewed. A combination of recency effect, UFC bias, and frustration regarding the end of his reign, I guess. If you look at their streaks and records and the guys they beat, I can't really grasp why some guys are getting votes over him. Silva and Jones make sense depending on how you weigh things, but I can't see an argument for others.

Jones is a legitimate choice, for sure, but I think people view him differently because he is currently unbeaten - same as how people viewed Aldo and Rousey up until now. People don't just view these top-heap guys based on what they've done, but based on an imagined forecast of what they could also go on to do. Is Jones still #1 if Cormier knocks him out in a rematch? Or if Gustavson gets another shot and wins a split decision?

I dunno, maybe it's reasonable to factor in what a guy could potentially go on to do, but I don't get it.

 

[jw2]

The top 4 are interchangeable.

The next tier is the most interesting to vote on, IMO.

 

[Avs_19]

I'm kinda amazed by how Fedor is viewed. A combination of recency effect, UFC bias, and frustration regarding the end of his reign, I guess. If you look at their streaks and records and the guys they beat, I can't really grasp why some guys are getting votes over him. Silva and Jones make sense depending on how you weigh things, but I can't see an argument for others.

For me......

1. Jones
2. Anderson
3. Fedor

 

[Acallabeth]

An easy vote for Fedor Emelianenko. Basically, I would bet on prime Fedor in a fight against any other fighter ever except maybe Jones, and it happens that his most serious p4p competition (Jones and Spider) both are at least close to him in natural body weight, but fight in lighter weight classes. While not being a natural born athlete, prime FE used his strengths in such a deadly way and neutralized opponents' best qualities so well he was virtually unbeatable. Add the intangibles of never failing a drug test or having a ******** win, and being one of the most exciting fighters ever, and I'm confident in my vote.

Jones is a legitimate choice, for sure, but I think people view him differently because he is currently unbeaten - same as how people viewed Aldo and Rousey up until now. People don't just view these top-heap guys based on what they've done, but based on an imagined forecast of what they could also go on to do. Is Jones still #1 if Cormier knocks him out in a rematch? Or if Gustavson gets another shot and wins a split decision? I dunno, maybe it's reasonable to factor in what a guy could potentially go on to do, but I don't get it.

I'd say that it's really hard to assess MMA fighters historically, because most top fighters only clash once even in the same division, and the sport's technique is so vast and diverse that even a 25 minute fight is often not enough to say confidently who's better. Like, if Velasquez never had a rematch with JDS for some reason, he would go in history books like a wrestler who got KO'd in a minute, while 2 following fights went so bad for him they may have finished his career as a top fighter. Mir KO'd past his prime Crocop, basically landing one power strike in a 15 minutes fight. Jones, whom I voted #1 ever, was one more Gus TD away from getting dethroned. Etc. I don't have a problem with other guys' votes, because MMA isn't boxing or tennis, a sport with limited techniques, where the better guy wins 99%. Too bad MMA can't have bo7 series like hockey does.

 

[Jasper]

I'm kinda amazed by how Fedor is viewed. A combination of recency effect, UFC bias, and frustration regarding the end of his reign, I guess. If you look at their streaks and records and the guys they beat, I can't really grasp why some guys are getting votes over him. Silva and Jones make sense depending on how you weigh things, but I can't see an argument for others.

Jones is a legitimate choice, for sure, but I think people view him differently because he is currently unbeaten - same as how people viewed Aldo and Rousey up until now. People don't just view these top-heap guys based on what they've done, but based on an imagined forecast of what they could also go on to do. Is Jones still #1 if Cormier knocks him out in a rematch? Or if Gustavson gets another shot and wins a split decision?

I dunno, maybe it's reasonable to factor in what a guy could potentially go on to do, but I don't get it.

I'm sure it's more than recency bias. I remember watching UFC 1, 2, 3, etc by renting the VHS tapes with my friends when we were teenagers. But I never really watched Pride or other leagues until around the time Pride folded. By the time I started watching Fedor he was beating a bunch of nobodies, at least compared to what the best UFC guys were fighting. I've also got a bias that guys who are really good now like Jones are probably a lot better than guys who were really good back then because of the obvious development of the overall game and expanding population of fighters.

The point is that I can't put Fedor higher than the obvious top UFC 3 from my experience and knowledge even though he may deserve it.

 

[darko]

As time goes on, GSP is creeping higher on my list... If only he tried to finish more...

Love GSP but he shouldn't be getting votes over Fedor.

 

[kurt]

Love GSP but he shouldn't be getting votes over Fedor.

Yeah - I was more referring to Aldo & Couture in the first go-round.

I also don't understand why Aldo got a vote last time but not this time. Neither Fedor or Anderson Silva have done anything to raise their stock since the first go-round of votes, and Aldo's body of work before fighting Conor is still as it was before the fight took place. I think this lends itself to the idea of "projecting/forecasting" of those currently on top (see Jones at #1).

 

[kurt]

An easy vote for Fedor Emelianenko. Basically, I would bet on prime Fedor in a fight against any other fighter ever except maybe Jones, and it happens that his most serious p4p competition (Jones and Spider) both are at least close to him in natural body weight, but fight in lighter weight classes. While not being a natural born athlete, prime FE used his strengths in such a deadly way and neutralized opponents' best qualities so well he was virtually unbeatable. Add the intangibles of never failing a drug test or having a ******** win, and being one of the most exciting fighters ever, and I'm confident in my vote.



I'd say that it's really hard to assess MMA fighters historically, because most top fighters only clash once even in the same division, and the sport's technique is so vast and diverse that even a 25 minute fight is often not enough to say confidently who's better. Like, if Velasquez never had a rematch with JDS for some reason, he would go in history books like a wrestler who got KO'd in a minute, while 2 following fights went so bad for him they may have finished his career as a top fighter. Mir KO'd past his prime Crocop, basically landing one power strike in a 15 minutes fight. Jones, whom I voted #1 ever, was one more Gus TD away from getting dethroned. Etc. I don't have a problem with other guys' votes, because MMA isn't boxing or tennis, a sport with limited techniques, where the better guy wins 99%. Too bad MMA can't have bo7 series like hockey does.

All valid points for sure.

 

[bigdirty]

Watching this, it has to be Fedor. No disrespect to Silva though, I just wish he had fought more at light heavyweight. Taking on a past his (very brief)prime Forrest Griffin doesn't really impress.

 

[ck26]

Haven't wandered into forum=234 in a while ... surprised to see Bones Jones up to #1 on this list.

Anderson and GSP were equally dominant; Anderson was dominant for longer and was soooo much more spectacular.

Anderson
GSP
Some combination of Mighty Mouse, Aldo and Hughes

 

[jw2]

Watching this, it has to be Fedor. No disrespect to Silva though, I just wish he had fought more at light heavyweight. Taking on a past his (very brief)prime Forrest Griffin doesn't really impress.

Hong Man Choi is terrible. He's 2-3 with 1 of his 2 wins over Jose Canseco.

 

[kurt]

Hong Man Choi is terrible. He's 2-3 with 1 of his 2 wins over Jose Canseco.

Did you watch the video or just see the screen cap?

 

[kurt]

Haven't wandered into forum=234 in a while ... surprised to see Bones Jones up to #1 on this list.

Anderson and GSP were equally dominant; Anderson was dominant for longer and was soooo much more spectacular.

Anderson
GSP
Some combination of Mighty Mouse, Aldo and Hughes

Hughes?

Matt Hughes
Record: 45-9
Undefeated Streak: 18, 13
UFC Title Defenses: 7
Notable Wins: Newton x2 (former UFC WW Champ), Penn (UFC LW & WW Champ), St. Pierre (UFC WW Champ) Sherk (later UFC LW Champ), Trigg x2, Serra, Sakurai, Renzo Gracie
Comments: Loss to a smaller Penn counts against him, as does not fighting some top talent in other orgs (Nick Diaz, Frank Shamrock, prime Renzo Gracie). Lost trilogies to GSP & Penn.

 

[YNWA14]

Kind of surprised to see Jones #1, tbh. For me it's Anderson Silva, Fedor, GSP then maybe Jones. Too many unknowns still with Jones and most of the guys he beat that were decent were also out of their primes or had already been found out. Cormier and Gustafsson are the two big wins for me from Jones, and Gustafsson was very close to winning that fight.

Nobody dusted guys who were at the top of their game like Silva did, despite it being in a relatively weak division. Fedor was Fedor and it's hard to ignore what he did especially since he probably should have been fighting at 205 (though the merit of that can be argued as well as the advantages/disadvantages) and GSP was completely dominant but rarely spectacular after developing a very smothering style.

 

[jaric1862]

Please don't add women to the list. Also Royce needs serious consideration. Guy fought and dominated heavyweights as a welterweight. That pretty much is the definition of PFP goat.

In a time where BJJ was unknown.The reason he won was because no one knew BJJ.

 

[jaric1862]

Kind of surprised to see Jones #1, tbh. For me it's Anderson Silva, Fedor, GSP then maybe Jones. Too many unknowns still with Jones and most of the guys he beat that were decent were also out of their primes or had already been found out. Cormier and Gustafsson are the two big wins for me from Jones, and Gustafsson was very close to winning that fight.

Nobody dusted guys who were at the top of their game like Silva did, despite it being in a relatively weak division. Fedor was Fedor and it's hard to ignore what he did especially since he probably should have been fighting at 205 (though the merit of that can be argued as well as the advantages/disadvantages) and GSP was completely dominant but rarely spectacular after developing a very smothering style.

Ya i completely agree with this. Jones should not be #1