MLS - 2023 Season

[HajdukSplit]

In a disgraceful move and one which shows how corporate MLS is there are reports they won’t be sending teams to the US Open Cup and instead they will field their MLS Next Pro teams instead. Of course the Open Cup winners got a CONCACAF CL spot but I’m sure that will go away too

For all the talk about how progressive the league is all they do is keep it more closed and cater to the billionaire owners which is why I kind of sour on American football, trying to hard to be the NFL in a global game

 

[kingsboy11]

Extremely poor decision from Garber. We need to promote the USOC more, not ditch it entirely. FC Cincinnati wouldnt even be an MLS team if it werent for the Open Cup and the exposure they got from it. Add in that we're not expanding the roster rules. We'll bend the rules to allow the best player to ever play the sport join our league and then do nothing else to capitalize on it.

 

[KevFu]

I'm conflicted. Obviously it's a deplorable thing to destroy the Open Cup...
But the line I saw that sums it up perfectly is "The ROMANCE of the Open Cup far exceeds the actual product."

And it's because if you compare it to the FA Cup in England, they have fixed numbers per tier (20-24-24-24) and fluid membership, and in the US it's the opposite: Membership is fixed, but the number is fluid.

Rochester beat four MLS teams to win the 1999 Open Cup. There were TWELVE MLS teams then.

You mentioned Cincinnati, @kingsboy11, and they're a club which effectively "Switched Sides."

Say you had the same Round of 32 once per decade of:

Richmond, Rochester, Charleston, Sacramento, Louisville, Memphis, Seattle, Portland, Orlando, Nashville, Cincinnati, Minnesota, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Austin, Charlotte, Miami, Philadelphia, New York Red Bulls, New England, DC United, Columbus, Chicago, San Jose, Kansas City, Salt Lake, Colorado, MLS Los Angeles #2, LA Galaxy.

In 2003, that's 10 MLS teams and 22 second division teams.
In 2013, that's 16 MLS teams and 16 second division teams.
In 2023, that's 26 MLS teams and 6 second division teams.


The Open Cup is pointless because MLS is so big the only way to make it a good tournament is if they enter in the Round of 64; so they're playing six games and by Game 3 you're gonna be at 2 or 3 non-MLS teams left. What's the point?


But it's horrible to say the Open Cup is pointless, and the reason the Open Cup is pointless is because of the way they've managed pro soccer in the US to be one CLOSED league of 30 instead of being a CLOSED PYRAMID of 96 teams that paid them to get in.

My #1 soccer belief is that MLS should have expanded from 16 by selling about 40 clubs "MLS-2" licenses and expanding via promotion. And then done it again with 40 more clubs to start MLS-3 and taken like 20 years to actually get a balanced pyramid. So by the time they started to RELEGATE anyone, the gap between the OG 16 teams and other 80 would be so vast that they'd be entrenched in the top flight and impossible to move.

And soccer would be far more popular because 64 more cities could support their team to try and move up instead of being clubs like the Richmond Kickers, who are stuck succeeding constantly in the second division; or the Rochester Rhinos, who are the biggest tragedy of American soccer.

 

[Terry Yake]

absolute bullshit from MLS

let the clubs decide themselves if they want to field their first team or development team. oh, and the leagues cup is f***ing garbage

 

[sabremike]

absolute bullshit from MLS

let the clubs decide themselves if they want to field their first team or development team. oh, and the leagues cup is f***ing garbage

The Leagues Cup is so plastic that tickets should have a 5 cent deposit tacked onto them.

 

[bluesfan94]

SuperDraft is happening now

 

[KevFu]

absolute bullshit from MLS

let the clubs decide themselves if they want to field their first team or development team. oh, and the leagues cup is f***ing garbage

I mean, I get the decision. I was talking to some other guys about what the US Soccer/MLS Academy system means going forward (we're just now getting the fruit of the system hitting the national team, and it hasn't really been long enough for anyone to have a full academy experience).

The romance of the Open Cup is that the little guys can play (sometimes at home) and pull upsets and advance. But the gap between MLS and the USL-C teams is pretty big now, and it's going to get more and more vast because of the Academy system.

The concept of the Academy system is kids saying "I want to be a pro soccer player, and I'm not going to play college soccer." It's skill development instead of the flawed "play games to get noticed" system that our countries had for sports.

So these kids are going to hit age 18, graduate from the Academy with the intent to go play pro soccer somewhere.

USL-C doesn't pay enough for Academy grads to join that league. At $26,000 a season, you'd need a second job to live comfortably. But you're 18 years old, no college degree and already put in the commitment to be a pro player. That league is a league for players on the "Old American track. Play college soccer and hope to go pro."


In all honesty they just shouldn't have announced announced anything and just secretly said the rosters they'll use will be Academy kids instead of their pro squads.

 

[Viqsi]

My #1 soccer belief is that MLS should have expanded from 16 by selling about 40 clubs "MLS-2" licenses and expanding via promotion.

...and that's where you lost me. Mostly because I'm convinced that in any pro/rel arrangement they'd inevitably use that to find one more way to enforce the MLS 2.0+ versus OG teams gap, and it's already blatant enough. For example, I am 100% unshakably convinced that if we had an actual pro/rel pyramid, #SaveTheCrew would have been "resolved" the same way the Dons were - by being forcibly relocated anyways, gifting the new city a spot in the existing high level in the pyramid, and pretending to mollify screwed-over supporters by subsequently "granting" a bottom-of-the-pyramid franchise with zero chance of ever returning to anything even close to former glory "because hey you might get promoted back up again someday" (lol).

 

[spintheblackcircle]

 

[The Marquis]

US Soccer told MLS to f*** off:

US Soccer DENIES request for MLS NEXT Pro teams to play in US Open Cup

The Open Cup move is super dumb and weird, but I get their faux reason, but we all know the real reason is to control Messi Mania. I don't know why they don't just participate, but in a different capacity. For instance.

Qualification in the Champions Cup excuses you from USOC competition. That reduces fixture congestion for the clubs they want to have avoid that due to more important competition. For this coming USOC that would leave 19 participants in the USOC. 10 would go to CONCACAF. They could have those tournaments running simultaneously. They would be able to know how many MLS teams would be involved in the CCC by the conclusion of the Previous Open Cup. Once that's done, set the table for the following tournament bracket. Yeah, the timeline reduces, but maybe that's a good thing.

Regardless, this is next years problem, now that US Soccer has had its say.

 

[kingsboy11]

Would've liked a stronger statement from US Soccer, but ultimately I'm glad they made the correct decision

 

[HajdukSplit]

My guess is eventually MLS "comes back" to the Open Cup but regardless play the youth/reserve teams which they largely have done anyway in the early rounds. But its a joke how much MLS is able to get away with considering if this happened elsewhere in the world probably FIFA would punish the federation

 

[The Marquis]

My guess is eventually MLS "comes back" to the Open Cup but regardless play the youth/reserve teams which they largely have done anyway in the early rounds. But its a joke how much MLS is able to get away with considering if this happened elsewhere in the world probably FIFA would punish the federation

They aren’t getting away with it. They have to play to maintain status as a pro league. They were trying to do by the reserve teams representing them but US Soccer said no, they can’t, because it’s required for a pro league in the US.

 

[KevFu]

...and that's where you lost me. Mostly because I'm convinced that in any pro/rel arrangement they'd inevitably use that to find one more way to enforce the MLS 2.0+ versus OG teams gap, and it's already blatant enough.

Well, there's a huge reason I said "From 16 to..." because yes, absolutely, they'd create a sizeable gap between the OG members and the drop zone, so it would be incredibly rare for one of them to go down...

But here's the thing: The first markets to MLS were the places where soccer was most likely to be successful. aka major cities and soccer hotbeds. OF COURSE they're going to be historically the best teams in the league. That's no different than the other sports we have: the BEST MARKETS get teams FIRST. (With the exception of slotting in West/South much later, obviously)

Like in baseball, the top six franchises by winning percentage are the Yankees (NY), the Dodgers (NY/LA), Giants (NY/SF), Cardinals (STL), Red Sox (BOS) and Cubs (CHI).

LA and NY are going to be financial powers because it's LA/NY.

 

[Savant]

I just think MLS has outgrown itself. The DP rule should be in the bin. There are so many teams in the league now that there shouldn’t be any barriers to bring the best talent in; provided players want to come. I don’t care if Inter Miami has four guys from Barca. I care certain owners just want the team to line their pockets are don’t care if they are good enough because there is no fear of relegation. Let’s teams sign who they want, let’s get the best talent in

 

[robertmac43]

The DP rule needs to be scrapped. Make the cap easier to navigate in general.

Nothing more anticlimactic then a trade like this.

 

[Savant]

The DP rule needs to be scrapped. Make the cap easier to navigate in general.

Nothing more anticlimactic then a trade like this.

Absolutely it’s nonsense. All the DP rule now is diluting the potential talent pool

 

[KevFu]

For example, I am 100% unshakably convinced that if we had an actual pro/rel pyramid, #SaveTheCrew would have been "resolved" the same way the Dons were - by being forcibly relocated anyways, gifting the new city a spot in the existing high level in the pyramid, and pretending to mollify screwed-over supporters by subsequently "granting" a bottom-of-the-pyramid franchise with zero chance of ever returning to anything even close to former glory "because hey you might get promoted back up again someday" (lol).

I'm a little confused by this hypothetical... If we had an "actual pro/rel pyramid..."


The whole reason I think MLS should have done what I suggest is because 65% of people in US/CAN don't live in "Big League cities" and therefore, there's really no difference for them picking an MLS club to support, or picking a European club to support (other than Europe has a BETTER PRODUCT).

Most fans pick their favorite sports teams based on where they live; their local club. The rest of the world has soccer clubs EVERYWHERE.

It's not a big deal for those people to pick "The nearest" team in MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA... because those are the best leagues in the world. But MLS isn't.

Therefore, the multi-tiered (but still closed) system of 72-96 "MLS branded clubs" gives a local team to just a TON MORE CUSTOMERS -- and probably wins fans based on the concept of promotion! ("Albuquerque can have a MAJOR LEAGUE team if we WIN THIS GAME?!?!?!")

That would lead to a lot more people hopefully caring about MLS.


Sorry for the long set-up. But if MLS took that path I just described, how is relocation even an option? Where would the Crew GO? The owner of "MLS-1" Columbus isn't going to leave a market of 2.2 million people for an open market when there's already 64-96 teams existing or en route.

Austin would HAVE a club already! It might be an MLS-2 club, but they'd have territorial rights in a closed league.

 

[KevFu]

I just think MLS has outgrown itself. The DP rule should be in the bin. There are so many teams in the league now that there shouldn’t be any barriers to bring the best talent in; provided players want to come. I don’t care if Inter Miami has four guys from Barca. I care certain owners just want the team to line their pockets are don’t care if they are good enough because there is no fear of relegation. Let’s teams sign who they want, let’s get the best talent in

It's kind of weird that I agree with your bold statement, while saying "MLS should have done a three-tiered, 72-96 team structure" at the same time.

It's a giant catch-22: You're never going to get enough people in the US/Canada to care about MLS with 30-32 teams in a closed system without the best players in the world - or at least in the ballpark of that -- which you can't get on the summer calendar instead of the global calendar. And you can't go to the global calendar without massive support to compete with NFL, NBA, NHL or huge TV money; which you can't get without... (go back to "best players").

Which is why I believe my crazy closed three-tier, 72-96 team thing. We've seen tons of places go nuts for their first major pro sports team; You could have given that to like 40 cities.


And within that system, the franchises that have no interest in spending to build a winning club can just make money in the second division, flirting with promotion, and flipping players. There'd be many kinds of clubs doing different things in terms of strategy, level of competitiveness, brains vs money and niches. Instead of MLS being mostly the same and bland from one year to the next.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

MLS needs to figure out if it wants to be structured like football leagues in other countries or structured like franchise sports in North America. The weird hybridity they have going on now is growing more untenable as football gets more popular in the US and more money enters it

 

[KevFu]

MLS needs to figure out if it wants to be structured like football leagues in other countries or structured like franchise sports in North America. The weird hybridity they have going on now is growing more untenable as football gets more popular in the US and more money enters it

I'm certain the answer is "structured like franchise sports in North America."

The only reason you could call it a hybrid of any kind is because of the the sport they play, and they've taken a few of the opportunities for more money that present themselves if they interact with World Football occasionally.

"North American Franchise"
- Closed League, no PRO/REL
- Expansion fees
- Relocation of franchises
- Divisions not round-robin
- Playoffs, not regular season champion
- Player Draft
- Salary Cap
- Playing in the season that makes the most money for them, not the World Calendar


"World Football"
- The sport they play
- Academy system
- Participating in Transfer Market
- CONCACAF Champions League and tourney with Mexico
- Having the Open Cup (which they are actively trying to get out of).

Andy they really only adopted the Academy system in order to participate in the Transfer Market for the revenues of exporting academy products.

 

[Viqsi]

But if MLS took that path I just described, how is relocation even an option? Where would the Crew GO?

Once again, see the example of the Dons. There were existing clubs in Milton Keynes, but the goal was to get a League team.

 

[KevFu]

Once again, see the example of the Dons. There were existing clubs in Milton Keynes, but the goal was to get a League team.

Yeah, I see the example... The Dons moved because that market didn't have a LEAGUE TEAM (Four tiers, 72 teams). .

In our hypothetical, MLS would be "the League" with three tiers, 72-96 teams (Closed off from promotion to those outside it).

I'm saying that if they started building that in 2006, by the time the Columbus' owner started trying to move the Crew in 2017, the question of where he could go would depend on "HOW FAR DID THEY GET" in building the pyramid?

I could show my work, but it would be crazy long. By the time Precourt want to move the Crew, the top SIXTY markets are definitely occupied by teams in the Pyramid, and he'd be looking at Knoxville TN or Greenville SC (which had existing lower division clubs, but might not have bought in to MLS-3 yet.


But there's another factor in here that I assume was part of the equation, and forgive my ignorance. I'm hoping you can help me with the timeline:

FC Cincinnati. I thought Precourt's unhappiness in Columbus began with the efforts of Cincinnati to get an MLS team, starting in early 2016 when they made the initial list of 10 teams to express interest in MLS expansion. Precourt first mentioned moving to Austin in October of 2017. FC Cincinnati was announced as an MLS expansion team in May of 2018, which was two months after Ohio filed a lawsuit against Precourt for the Modell Law.

But in the pyramid hypothetical, FC Cincinnati would be starting at MLS-2 at best, or MLS-3 since FC Cincinnati didn't start in USL until 2015. So the Crew would have the fiscal league advantage over FC Cincinnati for a few years minimum.

I could be wrong on that, and it could be totally unrelated and he just wanted to make more money somewhere else... but I doubt you're making more money leaving the 35th market for the 64th market.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The Messi impact, SKC moving the game to Arrowhead to get more ticket sales. Wonder if more teams do that. My wife really wants tickets for the game, but I'm scared at what the prices will be. It won't just be KC fans, it's going to be fans all over the region as Miami doesn't play in St. Louis this season.

 

[robertmac43]

First signing in for TFC.