OT: MLB Thread XLVI

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Yeah, we'll likely never see 4WS in 5 years again by any team but damn, for how much they put into the team, the Yanks should see more than 1 in 20 years.

I've had discussions with friends on the state of NY sports and when even the Yankees have the blues....

Is it a question of coincidental bad management throughout most of this region (other than the hockey teams and maybe the Nets who you can make the argument either way, the MLB, NFL, and Knicks management in this city is lacking) or is it something larger?

 

[JCProdigy]

While winning helps the Yanks aren't worth $5B because they are winning now but because they are an iconic brand. Just look at the Knicks being the most valuable NBA franchise.

The Knicks and the NBA are definitely and interesting case study. Look, the Rangers are the most valuable franchise in the NHL too and they don't have a winning culture to the chagrin of everybody here. New York of course plays a big part.

...but what separates the Yanks (+30% more valuable than the next highest MLB franchise) and Cowboys (+20% more valuable than the next highest NFL franchise) and what makes them truly iconic is their past winning pedigree to go along with the location.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

George Steinbrenner was a mega asshole who always wanted to make moves just to make moves (and keep his own name in the press). Never forget that this method of team building made the Yankees a joke for all of the '80s and the core of that Yankee dynasty was only built once he was forced to stay away from the team in the early '90s – or that the moment he came back, he had to be convinced not to trade a young prospect by the name of Derek Jeter.

By no means is the current management group perfect, but there's a whole lot of idealizing going on in this thread by people who weren't old enough to read the contemporary news reports when George was "at the height of his powers."

 

[Maximus]

Can someone please remind me why the Mets in their infinite wisdom thought Travis d'Arnaud wasn't good enough for their team yet after cups of coffee in both Tampa and LA, the Braves somehow have found a spot for him and he's pretty much an all-star?...hmmmm

 

[nyr2k2]

Can someone please remind me why the Mets in their infinite wisdom thought Travis d'Arnaud wasn't good enough for their team yet after cups of coffee in both Tampa and LA, the Braves somehow have found a spot for him and he's pretty much an all-star?...hmmmm

I mean the dude couldn't stay healthy. And when he was healthy over the past few years, he wasn't even good. 2016-2018 he posted a wRC+ of 75, 92, and 78.

It's great that he has excelled through 50 games with Atlanta. When he tears his abdomen pushing out a fart next spring and misses all but 15 games, I don't think anyone will care about him again.

Really though, let's see him stay healthy for anything close to a full season. He'll be 32 and coming off the best short stretch of his career. Is it real? Who knows. Neither LAD nor TB thought this was coming. The way the Mets got rid of him was silly, but getting rid of him in general, I don't fault them.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Can someone please remind me why the Mets in their infinite wisdom thought Travis d'Arnaud wasn't good enough for their team yet after cups of coffee in both Tampa and LA, the Braves somehow have found a spot for him and he's pretty much an all-star?...hmmmm

you can’t remember? Try to think of a time he was on the field. If you can’t remember, that’s why

 

[East Coast Bias]

I mean the dude couldn't stay healthy. And when he was healthy over the past few years, he wasn't even good. 2016-2018 he posted a wRC+ of 75, 92, and 78.

It's great that he has excelled through 50 games with Atlanta. When he tears his abdomen pushing out a fart next spring and misses all but 15 games, I don't think anyone will care about him again.

Really though, let's see him stay healthy for anything close to a full season. He'll be 32 and coming off the best short stretch of his career. Is it real? Who knows. Neither LAD nor TB thought this was coming. The way the Mets got rid of him was silly, but getting rid of him in general, I don't fault them.

Yea there’s a reason he’s only getting 1 year deals.

 

[sbjnyc]

Can someone please remind me why the Mets in their infinite wisdom thought Travis d'Arnaud wasn't good enough for their team yet after cups of coffee in both Tampa and LA, the Braves somehow have found a spot for him and he's pretty much an all-star?...hmmmm

In 7 seasons with the Mets he played 407 games, had a 5.3 war and made $7 million.
In 1 season with the Braves he played 44 games. had a 1.3 war and made $8 million.

 

[sbjnyc]

The Knicks and the NBA are definitely and interesting case study. Look, the Rangers are the most valuable franchise in the NHL too and they don't have a winning culture to the chagrin of everybody here. New York of course plays a big part.

...but what separates the Yanks (+30% more valuable than the next highest MLB franchise) and Cowboys (+20% more valuable than the next highest NFL franchise) and what makes them truly iconic is their past winning pedigree to go along with the location.

How far in the past? The value of the raptors and warriors increased dramatically after their championships but the yanks have 1 WS in 20 years and the cowboys have 4 playoff wins in the last 25 years. There is something else keeping their value up besides winning championships.

 

[Maximus]

In 7 seasons with the Mets he played 407 games, had a 5.3 war and made $7 million.
In 1 season with the Braves he played 44 games. had a 1.3 war and made $8 million.

What I recall more vividly is that d'Arnauld hit 16 bombs almost 60 ribs and batted .245 in 2018 and than bizzarely in 2019 after playing 4 games he was sent to Tampa where he hit another 16 bombs and 60 ribs and batted .260 something.

So yeah he might have been a bit injury prone but when he was on the field, the guy hit. And now once again he's showing it. I dunno, it was a stupid move for us to just get rid of him. I would have showed more patience with the guy.

Whatever....what's done is done, it's just more proof of Met ineptitude...that's all.

 

[romba]

What I recall more vividly is that d'Arnauld hit 16 bombs almost 60 ribs and batted .245 in 2018 and than bizzarely in 2019 after playing 4 games he was sent to Tampa where he hit another 16 bombs and 60 ribs and batted .260 something.

All this talk of ribs has me hungry for an early morning BBQ

 

[nyr2k2]

What I recall more vividly is that d'Arnauld hit 16 bombs almost 60 ribs and batted .245 in 2018 and than bizzarely in 2019 after playing 4 games he was sent to Tampa where he hit another 16 bombs and 60 ribs and batted .260 something.

So yeah he might have been a bit injury prone but when he was on the field, the guy hit. And now once again he's showing it. I dunno, it was a stupid move for us to just get rid of him. I would have showed more patience with the guy.

Whatever....what's done is done, it's just more proof of Met ineptitude...that's all.

2018 he played in 4 games because he had Tommy John. 2017 was his last good year with us. And by good, his fWAR was 1.4, so...decent. There was a very real question as to whether we would tender him a contract after the 2018 season. I think most people thought we wouldn't, because he literally couldn't stay on the field, and when he did, he was just decent. He was 30, chronically injured, and coming off a major surgery. We did however tender him an offer. Eventually he was cut after 25 ABs.

After he was cut he went to LA. He had one AB and they traded him after five days to TB for cash. In 92 games for TB, he was good--1.8 fWAR, which was his best output since 2015. Atlanta took a gamble and signed him for two years. And in 44 games, he was great! He also had a completely unsustainable .411 BABIP--unsustainable for anyone but certainly for a guy whose career BABIP before this year was .270. Plenty of other things in his profile that look like outliers (other than being healthy). ZIPS projects a .723 OPS for him next year.

IMO the reality is that the Mets were very patient with him. In the four seasons prior to 2019, when they released him, he averaged 64.5 games per year. You can't reserve a roster spot for the guy that is supposed to be your starting catcher when he player 65 games each year. At 30 and coming off a big injury, I don't think it was wrong to cut bait. I would also wager a lot of money that he can't sustain his current level of play--he may be closer to what he was early in his Mets career, but he's not going to be a .900+ OPS guy. And he's also not miraculously going to stay healthy. So, we'll see. I am critical of most things this team does but not this. They had the guy for seven years and waited for him to be the star catcher that anchored the lineup, and it never materialized. Sometimes you have to let a guy go.

 

[sbjnyc]

What I recall more vividly is that d'Arnauld hit 16 bombs almost 60 ribs and batted .245 in 2018 and than bizzarely in 2019 after playing 4 games he was sent to Tampa where he hit another 16 bombs and 60 ribs and batted .260 something.

So yeah he might have been a bit injury prone but when he was on the field, the guy hit. And now once again he's showing it. I dunno, it was a stupid move for us to just get rid of him. I would have showed more patience with the guy.

Whatever....what's done is done, it's just more proof of Met ineptitude...that's all.

He played 4 games in 2018 so I'm not sure how vivid your recollection is.

He was given plenty of time to make his case to be the Mets catcher for his career but 400 games in 7 seasons is not good and his offense was never better than mediocre - his OPS on the Mets was 0.704. He was better than Plawecki - I'll give him that. He was never consistently good but was consistently hurt.

The Mets signed Jed Lowrie to remind us what it's like to have a guy on the roster who is never healthy.

 

[JCProdigy]

How far in the past? The value of the raptors and warriors increased dramatically after their championships but the yanks have 1 WS in 20 years and the cowboys have 4 playoff wins in the last 25 years. There is something else keeping their value up besides winning championships.

Well it's never simple right? Never meant to infer that but we can still look at the big pressure points. How are they able to increase value despite lack of championships?
One word: Branding. Their brand is based on being winners, being the best.

How far in the past? To the beginning for the Yankees at least. Their current value bloomed from it. It's different to win one championship in modern age and building a dynasty over a century that has almost become mythical.

BTW in order to do that they, much like the Montreal Canadiens, used the huge advantages at their disposal. It was almost video game-like for a century. Those opportunities don't exist now like they did then.

Being a brand is somewhat self sustaining so they are able to weather not winning much better. They keep their value up by promoting that past in everything they do. I mean people wear Yankee caps throughout the world and they couldn't tell you anything about baseball or the Yankees. Still the core fanbase and the bandwagoners on the periphery, are highly fickle. We see it all the time here and elsewhere to an obnoxious/annoying amount. If apathy really starts to set in with those groups, that could be a problem for the Yanks.

The reason I believe the above and I believe the Steinbrenners know this as well is, for example, because after talking about fiscal responsibility and austerity etc etc. They still went out and signed Cole to a record breaking contract. They know they have to win, I just think, at this point, they are putting their faith in the wrong people to make that happen.

 

[sbjnyc]

Well it's never simple right? Never meant to infer that but we can still look at the big pressure points. How are they able to increase value despite lack of championships?
One word: Branding.

How far in the past? To the beginning for the Yankees at least. Their current value bloomed from it. It's different to win one championship in modern age and building a dynasty over a century that has almost become mythical.

BTW in order to do that they, much like the Montreal Canadiens, used the huge advantages at their disposal. It was almost video game-like for a century. Those opportunities don't exist now like they did then.

Being a brand is somewhat self sustaining so they are able to weather not winning much better. They keep their value up by promoting that past in everything they do. I mean people wear Yankee caps throughout the world and they couldn't tell you anything about baseball or the Yankees. Still the core fanbase and the bandwagoners on the periphery, are highly fickle. We see it all the time here and elsewhere to an obnoxious/annoying amount. If apathy really starts to set in with those groups, that could be a problem for the Yanks.

The reason I believe the above and I believe the Steinbrenners know this as well is, for example, because after talking about fiscal responsibility and austerity etc etc. They still went out and signed Cole to a record breaking contract. They know they have to win, I just think, at this point, they are putting their faith in the wrong people to make that happen.

That's exactly it - branding. The Yanks sell the images of their best players, now it's judge - 10 years ago it was Jeter. The Mets are trying to sell Alonso in the same manner. Maybe Cohen will do a better job of it than the Wilpons. A lot of this is overseas. I saw a lot of Yankee caps in China. I doubt the people wearing them have any idea how the team did this season.

The Canadiens are NHL's version of the Yankees with their legendary past but their last championship was in 1993 (compared to the cowboys 1995). But they're not in a massive media market and don't have an international superstar. The values of each franchise is in the marketing power of the team and its players. LeBron James proved you don't need to be in a massive media market. If the Habs won the lottery and drafted Laf, and if he is indeed the real deal, how much can he move the needle? Or is being in NY going to move it more regardless?

 

[sbjnyc]

By the way this reminded me to pump Dom and DJ for the hank aaron award. Dom was probably the biggest longshot to make it this far than anyone else on the list.

 

[Maximus]

2018 he played in 4 games because he had Tommy John. 2017 was his last good year with us. And by good, his fWAR was 1.4, so...decent. There was a very real question as to whether we would tender him a contract after the 2018 season. I think most people thought we wouldn't, because he literally couldn't stay on the field, and when he did, he was just decent. He was 30, chronically injured, and coming off a major surgery. We did however tender him an offer. Eventually he was cut after 25 ABs.

After he was cut he went to LA. He had one AB and they traded him after five days to TB for cash. In 92 games for TB, he was good--1.8 fWAR, which was his best output since 2015. Atlanta took a gamble and signed him for two years. And in 44 games, he was great! He also had a completely unsustainable .411 BABIP--unsustainable for anyone but certainly for a guy whose career BABIP before this year was .270. Plenty of other things in his profile that look like outliers (other than being healthy). ZIPS projects a .723 OPS for him next year.

IMO the reality is that the Mets were very patient with him. In the four seasons prior to 2019, when they released him, he averaged 64.5 games per year. You can't reserve a roster spot for the guy that is supposed to be your starting catcher when he player 65 games each year. At 30 and coming off a big injury, I don't think it was wrong to cut bait. I would also wager a lot of money that he can't sustain his current level of play--he may be closer to what he was early in his Mets career, but he's not going to be a .900+ OPS guy. And he's also not miraculously going to stay healthy. So, we'll see. I am critical of most things this team does but not this. They had the guy for seven years and waited for him to be the star catcher that anchored the lineup, and it never materialized. Sometimes you have to let a guy go.

OK my friend...quite the convincing argument and I have no retort for it and so I guess your right that we made the right move to let him go. I guess for me, I remembered too many of the good things d'Arnaud did when he was here as I was a pretty big proponent of him and I distinctly recall being more excited about him coming to NY from Toronto than I was about Syndergaard.

So his recent ridiculously impressive play for the Braves this year and especially this post season has gotten me waxing poetic instead of me realizing that he was a very injury prone guy. Well we need a catcher and so how about we get JT's agent on the horn and go get Realmuto for starters? hmmmm.

 

[East Coast Bias]

That's exactly it - branding. The Yanks sell the images of their best players, now it's judge - 10 years ago it was Jeter. The Mets are trying to sell Alonso in the same manner. Maybe Cohen will do a better job of it than the Wilpons. A lot of this is overseas. I saw a lot of Yankee caps in China. I doubt the people wearing them have any idea how the team did this season.

The Canadiens are NHL's version of the Yankees with their legendary past but their last championship was in 1993 (compared to the cowboys 1995). But they're not in a massive media market and don't have an international superstar. The values of each franchise is in the marketing power of the team and its players. LeBron James proved you don't need to be in a massive media market. If the Habs won the lottery and drafted Laf, and if he is indeed the real deal, how much can he move the needle? Or is being in NY going to move it more regardless?

A lot of the modern worth of teams is tied up in regional sports networks as well.

The Yankees were one of the first (if not the first MLB team) to spin off their content on a team owned station. Mets followed suit.

 

[nyr2k2]

OK my friend...quite the convincing argument and I have no retort for it and so I guess your right that we made the right move to let him go. I guess for me, I remembered too many of the good things d'Arnaud did when he was here as I was a pretty big proponent of him and I distinctly recall being more excited about him coming to NY from Toronto than I was about Syndergaard.

So his recent ridiculously impressive play for the Braves this year and especially this post season has gotten me waxing poetic instead of me realizing that he was a very injury prone guy. Well we need a catcher and so how about we get JT's agent on the horn and go get Realmuto for starters? hmmmm.

Don't get me wrong--there was always the possibility with TDA that you'd let him go and he'd excel. And for the equivalent now of one season, it has happened. I think it was a worthwhile risk; I think you can make a case that they should have kept him (although signing him long-term seems like it never would have been a consideration so he'd probably be gone now anyway), but I don't think in not keeping him it was incompetence.

I wanted them to keep Justin Turner. He was a good utility guy. They let him go and he did something no one thought he would do. Even the LAD didn't see it because I believe they initially gave him a minor league deal. I feel like this is kind of the same; not the exact same circumstances but letting a guy go because he didn't fit long term, and then he just does something totally unforeseen.

 

[Maximus]

Don't get me wrong--there was always the possibility with TDA that you'd let him go and he'd excel. And for the equivalent now of one season, it has happened. I think it was a worthwhile risk; I think you can make a case that they should have kept him (although signing him long-term seems like it never would have been a consideration so he'd probably be gone now anyway), but I don't think in not keeping him it was incompetence.

I wanted them to keep Justin Turner. He was a good utility guy. They let him go and he did something no one thought he would do. Even the LAD didn't see it because I believe they initially gave him a minor league deal. I feel like this is kind of the same; not the exact same circumstances but letting a guy go because he didn't fit long term, and then he just does something totally unforeseen.

Yup...Justin Turner was another one....ugggg. Why do I get the feeling when we inevitably let Matz go and we will, some pitching coach will figure him out and he'll go on to be Patrick Corbin lite?...book it!...lol

 

[RGY]

Great example of how pathetic Cashman has been as the Yankees GM. Yes this ties into scouting too, but you are responsible for everyone underneath you. If you get to take credit for your scouts finding a guy like Urshela, you also get credit when they cant find quality pitching.

Disturbing and Deflating that Hal Steinbrenner has no f***ing spine like his father and wont do what needs to be done.

 

[nyr2k2]

I'm telling you, Astros troll in full effect.

(I don't even care about their cheating but I know this would be infuriating for many.)

 

[JCProdigy]

I'm telling you, Astros troll in full effect.

(I don't even care about their cheating but I know this would be infuriating for many.)

Did ya read the story about the fan in San Diego with a bullhorn? That was funny.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

f*** both of these teams, but f*** the Astros more.

Tampa choking would be LOL worthy as long as the NL takes the WS.

 

[nyr2k2]

f*** both of these teams, but f*** the Astros more.

Tampa choking would be LOL worthy as long as the NL takes the WS.

I would be rooting hard for Houston because a) it's amusing and b) fuuuuuuuuck Atlanta and their dumbshit Tomahawk Chop and all that other garbage.