Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[HamiltonNHL]

Last two months of your posts not looking too good right now.

/yawn.

If he's back this is true:
(1) no team really wants him.
(2) his loser agent told him to hold out and Team Marner is a low IQ group.
(3) he's going to be eviscerated by fans and media. He already felt it last year and buckled. He will also harm his long term value tremendously. Playing under pressure aint Mitchy's game.

The Leafs are ready to cut losses. In a big way. You can't end the Dubas era without moving on from Marner. The team isn't the barrier, if he's here then he's the problem.

Marner coming back is LOSE LOSE. Team loses. Marner loses.

That's alot of loserness if he's back.

(1) was always the most likely.

 

[keonsbitterness]

/yawn.

Naps are legal.

(1) was always the most likely.

Most likely scenario is that the Leafs didn't get any acceptable offers.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Most likely scenario is that the Leafs didn't get any acceptable offers.

.. because no one wants MM (already overpaid, checks out when his cottage is open, married, won't bother with the rest of the baggage).

Any GM that signs Marner at 10.9 is clueless.

 

[notbias]

Mark Hunter wasted a lot of Leafs draft capital drafting small soft players (which many thought were waisted picks) ie Bracco, Brooks, Dzerkial, Timosov, etc etc.

For the 20th time in the past week.

You really need to start following the team more, right now your posts don't make sense.

Hunter was known for wasting picks on giants who sucked at hockey.

 

[ACC1224]

Naps are legal.

Most likely scenario is that the Leafs didn't get any acceptable offers.

One thing that’s impressive about the youth today is that they aren’t afraid to say what they think no matter how dumb it sounds.

Hopefully it’s just all an act.

 

[keonsbitterness]

.. because no one wants MM (already overpaid, checks out when his cottage is open, married, won't bother with the rest of the baggage).

Any GM that signs Marner at 10.9 is clueless.

You said he'd be traded by now. I'm holding you directly responsible.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

The issue with the Marner selection wasn't much different, in that the core of the reason to trade him NOW, that he plays too small and too soft and avoids contract, preferring a perimeter game which doesn't translate well to playoff style hockey of hard hitting and tight checking,

 

[Egghead1999]

Most likely scenario is that the Leafs didn't get any acceptable offers.

in the end, what is an acceptable offer? There are not many matthew tkachuk or quinn hughes out there. I believe the Leafs should be fine with similar to ROR's return. As long as it is not another Kadri trade, it is a win for Leafs.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

You said he'd be traded by now. I'm holding you directly responsible.

The team isn't the barrier, if he's here then he's the problem.

MM16 holding out for 13AAV x 8.
He's the problem.

Of course he's the big barrier here.

 

[ULF_55]

Tre needs to replace a couple of soft wingers with a couple of wingers who check and play a heavy game. Even with Bert, we were not "heavy" enough to compete with Florida. On paper, it is clear to me, this group is not getting past round #1.

Who knows, they may already be inhouse.
A new coach may tap different players for heavy lifting.
I'm guessing the new coach will change the tactics employed.

While I find the comment suspect about O'Rielly wanting to hand out punishment to Bennett but being told not to, if that was true maybe Keefe reined in the troops?

 

[Hellcat]

One thing that’s impressive about the youth today is that they aren’t afraid to say what they think no matter how dumb it sounds.

Hopefully it’s just all an act.

Nope not an act, they are literally that naive, the entitled generation, many of them think, if they think something, it has to be brilliant, even if it is absent of logic and common sense, say what they think and the right consequences will follow... life is easy.

 

[ULF_55]

You mean just like nylander matthews and tavares

Sure, if we were talking about the Core fowards.
Last 5 years, regular season and playoffs.

 

[Hellcat]

in the end, what is an acceptable offer? There are not many matthew tkachuk or quinn hughes out there. I believe the Leafs should be fine with similar to ROR's return. As long as it is not another Kadri trade, it is a win for Leafs.

I've been told its not the asset return but the cap flexibility that is the most important thing.

 

[Legion34]

MM16 holding out for 13AAV x 8.
He's the problem.

Of course he's the big barrier here.

How do you know that?

 

[Metroid]

How do you know that?

Cuz the media tells him, the same media he dosnt believe when it says RoR wanted Marner on his team....

 

[Stephen]

All correct IMO - I still think in a large part it was Keefe, who I feel makes people dumber for listening to his speeches. I mean what coach in a playoff overtime game says who wants to be the hero? I mean that sort of shit just gets in a person head and now you are playing to be the hero vs knowing your assignments, talking about set plays, focused on defending... he is a bad coach. You see those sort of hero plays in the Leafs game, lack of details, like that game ending OT goal in game 7, Pasta beat 2 of our top 5 players like they were the girls high school varsity team. Did the coach have that conversation with his skaters, guys watch out for the stretch pass, guys dont let Pasta or Marchand get behind you. Marner, Rielly and Woll all looked like they were literally day dreaming on that play. This lack of detail comes from your leader.

You can't win in the playoffs if you dont have detail in your game, the team as a whole lacked that detail. This lack of detail is on the coaching staff to correct. Edmonton went from a team with elite players who couldn't win to a team with elite players who couldn't lose. All because their new coach knows how to coach the details.

This is great.

I also think one of the big coaching and culture problems in Toronto is they play this mid tempo skilled possession game for most of the regular season, then switch up the cast and try to go toe to toe with Boston playing a hard and heavy playoff style game.

Like why would you not go to war with one consistent game plan, set of details and muscle memory in pressure moments if that’s your design? If the original Keefe-Dubas theory of outskilling everyone ever made sense, you should be outskilling them in the playoffs. Play that skill game with conviction if that’s what you believed in for 82 games.

Inconsistent messaging.

 

[keonsbitterness]

in the end, what is an acceptable offer? There are not many matthew tkachuk or quinn hughes out there. I believe the Leafs should be fine with similar to ROR's return. As long as it is not another Kadri trade, it is a win for Leafs.

Whatever qualifies as acceptable, Marner would also need to waive and agree to terms for a new deal with Team X. That's a lot of mountains to climb.

 

[Stephen]

Marner might be alot of things but he's also a elite talent who can play anywhere from 1 to 9 and make players better he's a superstar on any team that doesn't have matthews 1 year doesn't prove anything if we run talent like his out of town plan the parade somewhere else

So far Marner has proven to be the wrong kind of elite talent.

When you watch the playoffs progress, winning isn’t really dictated by “elite talent” if our definition is over handling the puck, fancy footwork and retreating to the perimeter.

Playoffs mostly looks like ping pong on ice, duelling icing calls, moments of heavy sustained cycling complete with battles along the boards and jockeying for position in the slot and occasional rush chances from defensive breakdowns. The skill level looks basic but the pace is incredible and the physical commitment is 100%.

If you think McDavid putting up all-time greatest point post season can’t simply will a team to win, don’t expect Marner to as the spearhead.

 

[Confucius]

Naps are legal.

Most likely scenario is that the Leafs didn't get any acceptable offers.

Most likely scenario, Marner informed team he wasn’t waiving.

 

[Stephen]

Whatever qualifies as acceptable, Marner would also need to waive and agree to terms for a new deal with Team X. That's a lot of mountains to climb.

End of the day, I would expect Team X to want Marner in a secondary offensive role a la Kessel in Pittsburgh and not as “the man.” And that price point just doesn’t line up.

 

[Roo]

One thing that’s impressive about the youth today is that they aren’t afraid to say what they think no matter how dumb it sounds.

Hopefully it’s just all an act.

Nope not an act, they are literally that naive, the entitled generation, many of them think, if they think something, it has to be brilliant, even if it is absent of logic and common sense, say what they think and the right consequences will follow... life is easy.

I signed up to this board MANY years ago, took a long hiatus in the middle... but man, the difference between now and then is INCREDIBLE! Like, WOW!

 

[keonsbitterness]

Most likely scenario, Marner informed team he wasn’t waiving.

Also possible.

 

[thewave]

The reason Mitch brother Chris remains in my conscience when discussing Marner, is because of how Mark Hunter at the time of draft used him to sell Leafs Nation on trying to support the selection #4 overall.

Chris Marner had a late growth spurt shooting up to 6-2, so Mark Hunter was hoping that would also happen for Mitch the small undersized winger coming in at 5-11 165 lbs.

Hunter also told us Marner would eventually be moved to centre, in an attempt to avoid the obvious that Centres and Dmen have higher priority building block positions than Wingers do.

Mark Hunter wasted a lot of Leafs draft capital drafting small soft players (which many thought were waisted picks) ie Bracco, Brooks, Dzerkial, Timosov, etc etc.

The issue with the Marner selection wasn't much different, in that the core of the reason to trade him NOW, that he plays too small and too soft and avoids contract, preferring a perimeter game which doesn't translate well to playoff style hockey of hard hitting and tight checking, and physically punishing and if you're afriad to play in traffic as self preservaton from getting hit or hurt, you will not be successful under those conditions.

Now toss in cost.. A winger is the least important building block position (each team 2 X G, and 4 X C and 6 X D and 8 X Wingers) , so now paying Marner more/equal to an elite #1C like Nathan MacKinnon coming off a 140 point season Hart and Lindsey and recent. You simply can't pay a secondary support position ** winger ** then you can an elite #1C that you build strength down the middle. You should be investing your highest Cap into #1C, #1G and Top Pairing Dmen.

Now that Leafs have overpayed Nylander a winger among the best, there simply is no available Cap Space room to build a Cup winning team with a 2nd winger making top 5 AAV. If Marner had been moved to centre in the NHL while playing winger in Junior than investing $12 mil in a elite C, and there would have been no need to every bring in Tavares either.

Sounds about right to me. Good post

 

[Aashir Mallik]

Our defensive results will only get better with Tanev in the lineup. Shut down Boston good in games 5-7, we just couldn't score (as usual) in game 7 to take the series.

Here's the thing. If Marner even increases his offensive output that series by 1 meagre point, the series would have flipped to us.

Trading Marner is going to be a set back. It's easier to hold out for a 10% increase from him which is easily attainable.

Obviously we want elite offence from Marner, not a 10% increase, but it's a simple example of the risk were taking by having to first fill up marners impact that we will lose and then succeeding it as well. It's stupid and nonsensical to do.

Running it back with Marner is such an obvious decision to make. The year will come when he finally takes off in the post season.

*Forgot to explicitly state Marner has an impact on those defensive results when I use the word setback. It won't just be an offensive fill.

I don’t agree with this way of thinking

Marner, and tbh the others too will NEVER give us that extra 10% each and every series that’s needed. For some reason, whenever it’s needed, they just fold. This isn’t just on Marner, but it’s his thread so I’m gonna focus on him for now.

Since 2018-19 we have only played close series against teams, even the florida series where we lost or won every game by 1 or 2 (g1 cuz of empty netter). Marner has never showed that he could give that extra 10% when we needed it. If something is required of him to get it done, he won’t deliver it, and some will instead try to deflect that towards Matthews. This is a guy who’s played in 7 winner takes all games and hasn’t scored a goal in any of them. He has like 2 assists total in them. In fact they are usually his worst games of the series.

There is no 10% to squeeze out of there, what we got from Marner this year, and in the past, is all he can give us under his current playstyle. We’ve held out for almost a decade and it’s never came, if you want to count that tampa series as him giving us that extra juice, then we caught lightning in a bottle and then we all saw that florida series.

Marner continuously playing from the right point hoping his floaters go in won’t just magically start working one playoff run, in 7 attempts it’s worked in 1 round against tampa…

Holding out for the magical extra 10% juice from Marner is like expecting Buffalo to make the playoffs, you can theoretically say it’s there and just need to wait for it to happen, but neither actually will happen.

 

[Superstar]

Why is 120 points important? Wasn't the team 2nd in goal scoring last year? They were one of two teams who scored more than 300 goals, 303 vs Colorado's 304. More points for Matty is not the issue, less goals against is. BTW, in 2021-22 Matty was on a 119 point pace for an 82 game season.

It's a reflection that Marner has a weak shot and has an issue scoring goals...like you know, in the playoffs? If he had a great shot, he would score more goalies and Matthews would get more assists, which would definitely help the team be more successful in the playoffs.

He relies on other players to score goals to boost his stats, while being one of the most expensive wingers in the league, and now wants a big raise when he's already overpaid...Sam Reinhart's new contract is $2 million lower on average than Marner's current contract...he wants to be paid 50% more than Reinhart's deal on his new contract. How do you win with a player like that? He's only in it for himself, not for team success, not anyone else.