Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[Gary Nylund]

You expect him to have pulled off a deal like that in less than a month when he first took the job? Give your head a shake.

It would have taken guts like I said, but there is no reason whatsoever that it couldn't have been done. Shop him around the league, take the best offer, simple as that. Marner signed for two more years would have been worth quite a bit. Make that deal and it seems clear that we're in a much better position as a franchise today, at least it's hard for me to see how we could be worse off.

Never understood why people feel the team is 'scared' to do something, just because they aren't doing what they wish.
Seems kind of insecure.

Maybe you should think about it a bit more then. You seem to think that there's no reason ever to question what team is doing but the reality is that they're 1-8 in playoff series, they just keep losing no matter who they play and they just keep running it back, shuffling around spare parts around the core.

Blind faith.

 

[nuck]

Never understood why people feel the team is 'scared' to do something, just because they aren't doing what they wish.
Seems kind of insecure.

Its the choice of words only. Afraid to make a deal that might make them look bad or inept. Mitch wins a Hart, club continues 1 and done in the playoffs. I don't think its black or white. They have a risk appetite like any business. It feels counterintuitive to deal an all star because the subtraction should logically make the team worse. Its also illogical that having 2 all stars and an almost all star can't get you out of round 1.

Bruins traded Thornton for a bag of pucks and won a Cup. Sharks won nothing even with JT's hall of fame career. It can happen.

 

[Trapper]

Its the choice of words only. Afraid to make a deal that might make them look bad or inept. Mitch wins a Hart, club continues 1 and done in the playoffs. I don't think its black or white. They have a risk appetite like any business. It feels counterintuitive to deal an all star because the subtraction should logically make the team worse. Its also illogical that having 2 all stars and an almost all star can't get you out of round 1.

Bruins traded Thornton for a bag of pucks and won a Cup. Sharks won nothing even with JT's hall of fame career. It can happen.

And right now we are closer to being Thornton/Marleau than winning a Cup.

 

[Stringer Bell]

Never understood why people feel the team is 'scared' to do something, just because they aren't doing what they wish.
Seems kind of insecure.

With all due respect this is just another one of your typical throwaway standard posts where you try to challenge the average sentiment of posters here just for the sake of challenging it.

We all know your little game. Feign ignorance and try to gas light me but you know I know.

There are very few other reasons to suggest why they wouldn't be pushing to make a bigger change. Results time and time again have shown this group of 4 don't work.

 

[ACC1224]

Surely Toronto fans wouldn't boo Mitchy right?

Fans wouldn't, no.

 

[socko]

Give it a couple more years of losing and players will be asking for movement clauses just to get out of Dodge……..

Ok, Shanny, I'll sign, but only if the contract inlcudes a Pro Movement Clause that guarantees I'm on another roster by next training camp.

 

[IPS]

For me personally, I see an incredibly gifted hockey player. But I also see a complete pus&y on the ice most of the time. If he just learned to fight through checks more often, I think the perception might change.

For others, I think they see a spoiled, entitled kid. Not saying it’s true, but that’s the vibe he gives off.

Some others just don’t like his face

Sums it up pretty well. The vitriol people throw at him (especially directly after the playoffs) is not without basis. In an intense playoff atmosphere it's very easy to see who's playing to win and who's playing to "survive".

 

[ACC1224]

Its the choice of words only. Afraid to make a deal that might make them look bad or inept. Mitch wins a Hart, club continues 1 and done in the playoffs. I don't think its black or white. They have a risk appetite like any business. It feels counterintuitive to deal an all star because the subtraction should logically make the team worse. Its also illogical that having 2 all stars and an almost all star can't get you out of round 1.

Bruins traded Thornton for a bag of pucks and won a Cup. Sharks won nothing even with JT's hall of fame career. It can happen.

Yes they assess the situation and do what they think is best for the team to be successful. They don't make decisions out of fear.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And right now we are closer to being Thornton/Marleau than winning a Cup.

We're on track to be much worse, after all the Sharks won playoff rounds every now and then and even went to the finals once IIRC.

I wonder, when was the last time a team went 1-8 in the playoffs. Has it even ever happened?

Fans wouldn't, no.

You think players that disappoint never get booed? Holy smokes, how naive can you be?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner is a better offensive playoff performer then anyone on Toronto and anyone on Florida when you zoom out. The numbers check out.

Toronto

1. Marner 57 GP - 50 points - 71.9 PPG/82
2. Matthews 55 GP - 48 points - 71.5 PPG/82
3. Nylander 54 GP - 43 points - 65.2 PPG/82
4. Tavares 38 GP - 24 points - 51.7 PPG/8

Florida:

1. Tkachuck 71 GP - 61 points - 70.4 PPG/82
2. Barkov - 71 GP - 59 points - 68.1 PPG/82
3. Verghaghe 69 GP - 55 points - 65.3 PPG/82
4. Reinhart - 55 GP - 33 points - 49.2 PPG/82

One big post season can change the entire story line of a players career, i.e Reinhart this season.


The very clear outlier on the Leafs is Tavares, who is underperforming and on a big cap hit. When the Leafs get rid of Tavares or readjust his contract, the leafs 46 million on 4 forwards drops to around 40 million on 4 forwards.


Florida has 38 million on their best 4 players, so when the Leafs get Tavares off the books our number will drop dramatically and be more in line with the the best team in the NHL. Also our big 4 forwards are better then Florida's beyond 2025 IMO, so it's ok if ours are paid a little bit more.

Getting Tavares off the books or on a new contract is going to be massive for this franchise.

If you go back far enough and ignore context, yes.

Even without context, the past three years Matty has a better ppg, last two years they are tied, and last year Mitch was in a four-way tie for fifth, behind Matty, Willy, Domi, and Bert.

I agree that JT is the outlier, but that problem will resolve itself after next year, while the Marner problem will only be exacerbated.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Never understood why people feel the team is 'scared' to do something, just because they aren't doing what they wish.
Seems kind of insecure.

Someone's insecure all right....

 

[Confucius]

We're on track to be much worse, after all the Sharks won playoff rounds every now and then and even went to the finals once IIRC.

I wonder, when was the last time a team went 1-8 in the playoffs. Has it even ever happened?


You think players that disappoint never get booed? Holy smokes, how naive can you be?

Amongst active teams to qualify for the playoffs, Currently tied with Boston for most consecutive years, at 8. Pretty good team I’d say.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Marner is a better offensive playoff performer then anyone on Toronto and anyone on Florida when you zoom out. The numbers check out.

Toronto

1. Marner 57 GP - 50 points - 71.9 PPG/82
2. Matthews 55 GP - 48 points - 71.5 PPG/82
3. Nylander 54 GP - 43 points - 65.2 PPG/82
4. Tavares 38 GP - 24 points - 51.7 PPG/8

Florida:

1. Tkachuck 71 GP - 61 points - 70.4 PPG/82
2. Barkov - 71 GP - 59 points - 68.1 PPG/82
3. Verghaghe 69 GP - 55 points - 65.3 PPG/82
4. Reinhart - 55 GP - 33 points - 49.2 PPG/82

One big post season can change the entire story line of a players career, i.e Reinhart this season.


The very clear outlier on the Leafs is Tavares, who is underperforming and on a big cap hit. When the Leafs get rid of Tavares or readjust his contract, the leafs 46 million on 4 forwards drops to around 40 million on 4 forwards.


Florida has 38 million on their best 4 players, so when the Leafs get Tavares off the books our number will drop dramatically and be more in line with the the best team in the NHL. Also our big 4 forwards are better then Florida's beyond 2025 IMO, so it's ok if ours are paid a little bit more.

Getting Tavares off the books or on a new contract is going to be massive for this franchise.

This is a fair point. The optics of his play in the playoffs has historically told a different story though. It seems that he can never come through when it matters most and he has also been prone to turnovers due to his inability to engage in physical play.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Amongst active teams to qualify for the playoffs, Currently tied with Boston for most, at 8 years. Pretty good team I’d say.

Good regular season team, crappy playoff team.

I was wondering if any team has gone 1-8 in playoff series before. Can you think of anyone?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Whats team friendly when the floor starts with Willie who is grossly overpaid? Mitch is 100pts per 82 games and Willie isa little over 80. Willie got Mitch's deal. I think if they didn't budge, Mitch reluctantly takes the same thing but can they afford that? And do they want to?

If Mitch had played the full 82 games last year at the same pace, he would have had two more points (and ten fewer goals) than Willy (98 is "a little over 80"?), even though he spent most of the season with Matty while Willy dragged JT around.

Willy, overpaid as he is, is the ceiling, not the floor.

 

[ACC1224]

Now that July 1 has passed have we heard that they've begun any contract discussions?
I imagine they will want to have things wrapped up one way or the other by camp.

 

[Confucius]

Good regular season team, crappy playoff team.

I was wondering if any team has gone 1-8 in playoff series before. Can you think of anyone?

We're on track to be much worse, after all the Sharks won playoff rounds every now and then and even went to the finals once IIRC.

I wonder, when was the last time a team went 1-8 in the playoffs. Has it even ever happened?


You think players that disappoint never get booed? Holy smokes, how naive can you be?

Buffalo and Calgary both exited in the 1st round 5 consecutive`times, Hartford whalers 6 times. To go 1 and 8 is tough because first off you have to be good enough to qualify 8 times.

hell we even booed my favourite all time Leaf (Mahovlich) just because he couldn’t score 2 goals to get to 50. I’m surprised we didn’t boo Mathews for not getting 70. Fans have gotten soft.

 

[LeafsFan89]

The Leafs are in the a tough spot.
1. Trade him (I want this).
2. He doesn't waive; so keeping him.

Let's say Berube magically transforms Marner into an amazing playoff competitor/playoff forward we long want. How much of this is due to Berube? Or the pressure of the a contract year (e.g., See Nylander's out of world play until he signed his extension). Do we then extend him with his "new game" in mind?

The pessimist in me says the Leafs want to resign Marner/looking for any excuse to resign Marner because he sells jerseys.

 

[HarryLime]

idc if he gets 80, 90, 100, 110 points. regular season means about as much as the pre-season for this team. obviously you want to see them just be healthy while getting in.

 

[Puckstuff]

If you go back far enough and ignore context, yes.

Even without context, the past three years Matty has a better ppg, last two years they are tied, and last year Mitch was in a four-way tie for fifth, behind Matty, Willy, Domi, and Bert.

I agree that JT is the outlier, but that problem will resolve itself after next year, while the Marner problem will only be exacerbated.

Marner needs to be way better but there's actually hope with Marner because he has the high end skill that Tavares does not and he's in his prime years. Marner could easily go off next playoffs if he has fan and team support.

Even if we move both Tavares and Marner, allocating 22 million dollars efficiently with almost no star players available will be a near impossible task.

There's no Huberdeau-Tkachuk type trade available right now. There is no good trade for Marner available right now. It's either support him or complain for the next 12 months. But if leafs fans support him, there's a higher chance he will have a good playoffs in 24-25. If we drive him out of town, there might not be a replacement for him like the way Florida was able to replace Huberdeau with Tkachuck because the trade environment is different. 100 point players are not easy to replace.

 

[nuck]

If Mitch had played the full 82 games last year at the same pace, he would have had two more points (and ten fewer goals) than Willy (98 is "a little over 80"?), even though he spent most of the season with Matty while Willy dragged JT around.

Willy, overpaid as he is, is the ceiling, not the floor.

Mitch has done 100 per 82 for the last 5 years. Willie has been a little over 80 the same time period. If you just pay based on Willies first 40 games of last season then his contract is fine but that is not his established level. The Bruins did not have a center who scored as well as Tavares yet Pasta scored 113 and 110 the last two years. Jt wasn't holding him back any more than Zacha held back Pasta.

 

[stickty111]

It would have taken guts like I said, but there is no reason whatsoever that it couldn't have been done. Shop him around the league, take the best offer, simple as that. Marner signed for two more years would have been worth quite a bit. Make that deal and it seems clear that we're in a much better position as a franchise today, at least it's hard for me to see how we could be worse off.


Maybe you should think about it a bit more then. You seem to think that there's no reason ever to question what team is doing but the reality is that they're 1-8 in playoff series, they just keep losing no matter who they play and they just keep running it back, shuffling around spare parts around the core.

Blind faith.

I would stop replying to that user. He stoop so low that he mocked me again on the Jani post about passing tests. Seems like someone needs to learn insecurity

 

[notdoneyet]

Hopefully Berube can make matthews and nylander into playoff warriors too. 69 goal scorer can’t score when we need it and a guy who tries whenever he wants and disappears whenever he wants.

 

[Tak7]

Never understood why people feel the team is 'scared' to do something, just because they aren't doing what they wish.
Seems kind of insecure.

They are massively risk averse compared to the types of risks other actual contenders make though, right?

Vegas displays a level of ruthlessness & lack of sentiment that rubs people the wrong way, but still gets them results.

Tampa walked their captain to the brink not once, but twice, and were fully prepared to let him walk if he didn't accept their own terms.

Meanwhile, much like I said at the end of the season, I just don't think the Leafs front office has it in them to do anything other than make these guys as comfortable and supported as possible.

 

[ACC1224]

They are massively risk averse compared to the types of risks other actual contenders make though, right?

Vegas displays a level of ruthlessness & lack of sentiment that rubs people the wrong way, but still gets them results.

Tampa walked their captain to the brink not once, but twice, and were fully prepared to let him walk if he didn't accept their own terms.

Meanwhile, much like I said at the end of the season, I just don't think the Leafs front office has it in them to do anything other than make these guys as comfortable and supported as possible.

I get what you're saying but I don't see it. Is this just a new found philosophy?