Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Superstar]

That would be 14 x 7.

I never understand when they keep saying open market but then do 8 years.

I bet he wants 13.26.
It’s too much but I would guess they would want to do it. You don’t lose a top player for nothing over 750k a year

My bet is he wants $13.93, gotta pay homage to Gilmour and a bit of a hometown discount for the Leafs less of $14 ...

 

[arso40]

Boy does he ever avoid contact by any means

 

[Gary Nylund]

My bet is he wants $13.93, gotta pay homage to Gilmour and a bit of a hometown discount for the Leafs less of $14 ...

LOL.

 

[arso40]

LOL.

Right? If he wants to give a discount he takes Willy’s contract if he wants to be reasonable he takes 12.5 hard to sell anything over that being a discount but once again we shall see if anything changes this playoffs

 

[Dekes For Days]

"The best kids are put at centre" - Doesn't this oppose your argument? Placing the top kids at centre position is done because centre is a more important position than winger, with more responsibilities and effect on the game.

You're confusing potential for impact and impact. Center offers the best potential for impact because it allows you to more easily distribute to both of your linemates and puts you in the more dangerous areas of the ice more often. But impact is impact, and impact from a center is not any more valuable than equivalent impact from a winger. Especially these days when positions are so fluid. Marner takes on winger, center, and even defenseman responsibilities in different zones and situations. This phenomenon is also self fulfilling, as the best kids tend to want to be center because the greats they grew up with were centers.

So even with using the top 100 of each category, Centres typically take up 10% more cap space relative to wingers, further proving my initial point.

Without even getting into the issues with relying on asking AI for something like this - especially with how bad positional data is - that wouldn't prove anything. You keep trying to argue that centers, on average, get slightly bigger contracts, but whether or not that's true, that is an entirely different argument than whether centers are getting paid more relative to their impact level because they are centers. Centers are, on average, slightly better players, and get compensated for that, but there is no evidence that centers get compensated any differently relative to their impact level, and no reason to think that a winger that impacts the game as much as those centers wouldn't be paid appropriately. They historically have.

 

[sunstersun]

Without even getting into the issues with relying on asking AI for something like this - especially with how bad positional data is - that wouldn't prove anything. You keep trying to argue that centers, on average, get slightly bigger contracts, but whether or not that's true, that is an entirely different argument than whether centers are getting paid more relative to their impact level because they are centers. Centers are, on average, slightly better players, and get compensated for that, but there is no evidence that centers get compensated any differently relative to their impact level, and no reason to think that a winger that impacts the game as much as those centers wouldn't be paid appropriately. They historically have.

Lot of talk.

Marner isn't Kuch. He isn't Kane.

He's a clear tier below the absolute superstar wingers.

 

[arso40]

You're confusing potential for impact and impact. Center offers the best potential for impact because it allows you to more easily distribute to both of your linemates and puts you in the more dangerous areas of the ice more often. But impact is impact, and impact from a center is not any more valuable than equivalent impact from a winger. Especially these days when positions are so fluid. Marner takes on winger, center, and even defenseman responsibilities in different zones and situations. This phenomenon is also self fulfilling, as the best kids tend to want to be center because the greats they grew up with were centers.

Without even getting into the issues with relying on asking AI for something like this - especially with how bad positional data is - that wouldn't prove anything. You keep trying to argue that centers, on average, get slightly bigger contracts, but whether or not that's true, that is an entirely different argument than whether centers are getting paid more relative to their impact level because they are centers. Centers are, on average, slightly better players, and get compensated for that, but there is no evidence that centers get compensated any differently relative to their impact level, and no reason to think that a winger that impacts the game as much as those centers wouldn't be paid appropriately. They historically have.

What are you talking about his primary center is Matthews what is it your suggesting? he doesn’t play center and doesn’t impact the game the same way Matthews does and without Matthews his numbers are worst that should tell you something marners a very good two way winger you might be pushing it just a bit

 

[francis246]

Thought Marner, Matthews and Knies had a great game tonight. All three were engaged in scrums and being physical. There was a moment where Matthews got into it at the bench and Marner came flying in to shove the guy as well in the 3rd. It feels like something has finally clicked for these guys. You have to be physically engaged to win in the playoffs. Let’s hope they can carry it forward.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There is no “universally accepted proportion of goals/assists” to be a goal scorer vs playmaker because these are descriptive terms that have NO bearing on contracts

Yes, that's what I've been saying all along. It doesn't matter. It's just different playstyles, and it has no impact on contracts. You're the one that's been pretending otherwise.

30 goals is really low for his current and future salary

No it's not. Not when you factor in everything else he brings, instead of just one isolated aspect of his impact.

comparing “proportion of goals to assists” means nothing. It’s how many goals and how many assists. Nic Robertson isn’t more of a “goal scorer than Matthews because he has a higher ratio of goals to assists this year.

It's just a way to see how much a player leans toward playmaking or goalscoring. Robertson's goal percentage is 56%, and Matthews is 55%, so pretty similar skew towards goalscoring.

Marner is going to be the lowest goal scoring player in a long time to get a top contract.

No he's not. Heck, McDavid signed the highest cap hit percentage among active with a nearly identical goal percentage as Marner.

He was overpaid last time. He will be over paid this time. Might still be our best move

He wasn't overpaid last time. He won't be overpaid this time. Re-signing him is our best move.

 

[thusk]

On occasion? This teams problem has they haven't been able to get past the first round! These aren't deep runs where he's had the occasional dogshi% game. These are critical must win games lol.

And, this is just the tip of the iceberg, I can show you 7 videos of playofg mistakes he made/giveaways that led directly to the puck being in the Leafs net.

And this is without even bringing up his incredible lack of production.

So let's summarize 13% of the cap and his playoffs:

Numerous videos of evidence of the following from Marner:
1) dog$&#^ efforts
2) demoralizing giveaways/mistakes causing goals against.
3) bad offensive production
4) doesnt go into scrums

I added scrums... lesser detail but still absolutely pathetic for an assistant captain. Name another leader that just stands and watches his teammates in scrums.

Just for you

 

[Dekes For Days]

Lol.... why do goals matter? Marner fans for years have been telling us he's a playmaker who shouldn't be judged on goals.

Why wouldn't goals matter? What people have actually been telling you for years is to stop cherry picking things. Yes, it's especially ridiculous to isolate goals when looking at a playmaker, but it's not much better to isolate something else that is equally misleading. It speaks volumes that you try so hard to avoid the full picture.

Do you think its appropriate to use Marners name in the same sentence as Gretzky at all?

If it's not to suggest that they are equivalent caliber players, why wouldn't it be?

Yes I think it's appropriate to compare his contributions as a first liner over the years, paid in the top 8, to other like paid first liners. Seems like your the one cherry picking Monahan.

But you're not comparing him to other first liners. He's performed better than almost all first liners over the years. You're comparing him to a third liner in really misleading ways. Yes, Monahan is cherry picked! That's the whole point! It was to demonstrate what you're doing with Domi, and how wrong it is.

 

[TopCheeseShotta]

How's this for big picture...

Most Leaf Assists / Season
All-Time:

Doug Gilmour - 95 - 1992/93
Doug Gilmour - 84 - 1993/94
Darryl Sittler - 72 - 1977/78
Mitch Marner - 70 - and counting

 

[Antropovsky]

Why wouldn't goals matter? What people have actually been telling you for years is to stop cherry picking things. Yes, it's especially ridiculous to isolate goals when looking at a playmaker, but it's not much better to isolate something else that is equally misleading. It speaks volumes that you try so hard to avoid the full picture.

If it's not to suggest that they are equivalent caliber players, why wouldn't it be?

But you're not comparing him to other first liners. He's performed better than almost all first liners over the years. You're comparing him to a third liner in really misleading ways. Yes, Monahan is cherry picked! That's the whole point! It was to demonstrate what you're doing with Domi, and how wrong it is.

You are all over the place. You're posting again and once again, many posters are commenting on your contradictory statements and inconsistencies.

If Domi's goals vs Marners goals matter... than Marner vs Mackinnon goals, or Mcdavid goals and vs high danger shots etc matter. However, for years when Marner is compared to other elite players, you've argued as a pass first playmaker Marners goal and shot stats shouldn't matter.... but compared to a 3rd line player, Domi, you want to introduce that category?

 

[ULF_55]

What do you get for that?

I think the return on an eight year sign and trade is simply compensation for bringing the contract value down.

iirc Oilers wanted Hyman for 500k less on an eight year deal and were willing to give up a 5th or something for that, but it fell apart because Leafs wanted a 2nd or a 3rd.

Marners contract might be a bigger reduction, perhaps a milly, but despite the player the return could be a middling pick.

It would be next to nothing compared to nothing.

 

[arso40]

Thought Marner, Matthews and Knies had a great game tonight. All three were engaged in scrums and being physical. There was a moment where Matthews got into it at the bench and Marner came flying in to shove the guy as well in the 3rd. It feels like something has finally clicked for these guys. You have to be physically engaged to win in the playoffs. Let’s hope they can carry it forward.

Yeah that was good on mitchy to get in there I thought Knies had a great game the others followed along

 

[Stringer Bell]

Just for you

I'm a big Marner critic, especially when it comes to his physicality, but this is nice to see...I must admit.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If Domi's goals vs Marners goals matter... than Marner vs Mackinnon goals, or Mcdavid goals and vs high danger shots etc matter. However, for years when Marner is compared to other elite players, you've argued as a pass first playmaker Marners goal and shot stats shouldn't matter.... but compared to a 3rd line player, Domi, you want to introduce that category?

Nobody has ever said that goals don't matter. That's just you pretending not to understand what people have said. People have told you not to cherry pick ONLY goals while ignoring other information to misrepresent players. That doesn't mean cherry pick other information and ignore goals instead. It means look at the whole damn picture and compare properly.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Marner isn't Kuch. He isn't Kane. He's a clear tier below the absolute superstar wingers.

Marner is an absolute superstar winger. One of the best wingers in the league now and throughout the cap era.

he doesn’t play center and doesn’t impact the game the same way Matthews does

He doesn't need to line up at center to take on certain responsibilities, and while he may not impact in the same way as Matthews, he's not far off the amount of impact he brings.

 

[arso40]

Marner is an absolute superstar winger. One of the best wingers in the league now and throughout the cap era.

He doesn't need to line up at center to take on certain responsibilities, and while he may not impact in the same way as Matthews, he's not far off the amount of impact he brings.

Hard to tell when he’s glued to him I’d like to see him without him for a spell

 

[sunstersun]

Marner is an absolute superstar winger. One of the best wingers in the league now and throughout the cap era.

He doesn't need to line up at center to take on certain responsibilities, and while he may not impact in the same way as Matthews, he's not far off the amount of impact he brings.

Yes he's a superstar winger of course.

Still a clear tier below the superstars in Kuch, Pasta and prime Kane.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm a big Marner critic, especially when it comes to his physicality, but this is nice to see...I must admit.

I wish I could give him more credit for this but one time coming late in the season in the contract year of a 6 year deal ... makes me wonder where his balls have been for the last 6 years. Not that it even takes any balls to do what he did there but whatever.

I'm waiting to be won over in the playoffs. I honestly don't know if you can do it or not Mitch, but I sure hope that you can and that you will because without you earning your cap hit (or at least close to it), it's hard to see this team going very far.

 

[Antropovsky]

I wish I could give him more credit for this but one time coming late in the season in the contract year of a 6 year deal ... makes me wonder where his balls have been for the last 6 years. Not that it even takes any balls to do what he did there but whatever.

I'm waiting to be won over in the playoffs. I honestly don't know if you can do it or not Mitch, but I sure hope that you can and that you will because without you earning your cap hit (or at least close to it), it's hard to see this team going very far.

Precisely - one or two times in a contract year at the end of the seaaon isn't getting me excited. Especially when Leafs are also playing hardball with him.

Also, I don't really care about him shoving a guy near the bench. I want to see him digging in corners and in front of the net like a honey badger on a regular basis.

 

[Stephen]

Just for you

Must be some bad blood with Kuraly over the years, good to see the nasty stuff from both Matthews and Marner.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Must be some bad blood with Kuraly over the years, good to see the nasty stuff from both Matthews and Marner.

Good to see. You don’t need to be a big bruiser to make people think twice about the cost of being a bit greasy. Gotta stand up for yourself out there.

 

[Stephen]

Good to see. You don’t need to be a big bruiser to make people think twice about the cost of a bit greasy. Gotta stand up for yourself out there.

Any plug who wants to take a run at a star player needs to pay a very heavy price.