Mitch Marner, Yet Again

Not even centres. Just goal scorers in general. Goal scoring is demonstrably the single most valued and regarded trait among forwards
I checked quickly for the top 20 players as a % of Cap;

9 Centres (McDavid, Matthews, MacKinnon, Tavares, Crosby, Petterson, Eichel, Barkov, Seguin)
3 RW (Marner, Nylander, Pasta)
2 G (Bobrovsky, Price)
3 LW (Benn, Huberdeau, Panarin)
3 D (Dahlin, Doughty, Karlsson)

So yea, overall it appears the league values goal scoring centres the most.

*edit to include all names*
 
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Did it occur to you that Marner was the one helping to create those high danger scoring chances for Matty and Knies? He's by far the primary assist guy / creating time and space guy on a line with (2) 30+ goal scorers this year (one of who can score 50-69 btw) . . . so tell me, what relevance does Marner's high danger scoring chances have to do with his line?

Anyone? Anyone?

Nothing.
The answer is . . . nothing.
Yep, @Antropovsky ignored you and doubled down on Dewar. Predictable.
 
I checked quickly for the top 20 players as a % of Cap;

9 Centres (all goal scorers)
3 RW (Marner, Nylander, Pasta)
2 G (Bobrovsky, Price)
3 LW
3 D

So yea, overall it appears the league values goal scoring centres the most.
You didn't specify who the LW and D were, but of the (non-G) others, all but Marner are primarily goal scorers.
 
I don’t believe it went that way. If Trev wanted to keep Mitch he wouldn’t ask if he would be interested in moving to Carolina. Wouldn’t that be tampering? Teams generally don’t like other teams tampering with their players. dDo you think we would have kept both Mitch and Rantanen, knowing us sure why not 3 right wingers in the 11 plus million range.

What?
Rantanen is retained for this season. He would have then been double retained. We’d have him and then a cheaper d option. I think the leafs absolutely wanted Rantanen for futures. They would have then let Mitch Marner walk after a Deep run. It’s pretty simple. Do you wanna give up Marner to get Rantanen or would you rather have both for one season including a double retained, then extended Rantanen. Come on man, use your head!! Not everything is a conspiracy theory.
 
What?
Rantanen is retained for this season. He would have then been double retained. We’d have him and then a cheaper d option. I think the leafs absolutely wanted Rantanen for futures. They would have then let Mitch Marner walk after a Deep run. It’s pretty simple. Do you wanna give up Marner to get Rantanen or would you rather have both for one season including a double retained, then extended Rantanen. Come on man, use your head!! Not everything is a conspiracy theory.
Obviously the preference was to get Rantanen for futures, but it doesn’t change the fact that when Carolina asked about Marner, Tre inquired. If they had no interest in trading Marner for Rantanen, they would have told Carolina no then and there.
 
Obviously the preference was to get Rantanen for futures, but it doesn’t change the fact that when Carolina asked about Marner, Tre inquired. If they had no interest in trading Marner for Rantanen, they would have told Carolina no then and there.

Can you blame him? Marner isn’t negotiating, they don’t know where his head is at, ofc you’d have to inquire. If he didn’t that’s a fireable offense: people are acting though like Marner was the first piece they wanted to give up or Toronto offered him out the gate. That’s not how it went down, I def agree I think they would have liked to have both for a cup run then let Marner walk. That sounds like what that plan was originally. Bolster for a deep cup run
 
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Historically haven't goal scoring centres been paid the most? Honest question.
Historically, forward position/playstyle hasn't made much of a difference when it comes to salary. The biggest post-ELC and UFA cap hit percentages throughout the cap era include both wingers and playmakers. It's about the impact you bring, not how you bring it.
I checked quickly for the top 20 players as a % of Cap;
9 Centres (McDavid, Matthews, MacKinnon, Tavares, Crosby, Petterson, Eichel, Barkov, Seguin)
3 RW (Marner, Nylander, Pasta)
2 G (Bobrovsky, Price)
3 LW (Benn, Huberdeau, Panarin)
3 D (Dahlin, Doughty, Karlsson)
So yea, overall it appears the league values goal scoring centres the most.
*edit to include all names*
I'm not sure where you got this list from, but most of those players aren't goal scorers, and while a lot of the best kids get brought up as and become centers, that does not equate to centers inherently getting paid a different amount relative to quality because of their position.
 
Can you blame him? Marner isn’t negotiating, they don’t know where his head is at, ofc you’d have to inquire. If he didn’t that’s a fireable offense: people are acting though like Marner was the first piece they wanted to give up or Toronto offered him out the gate. That’s not how it went down, I def agree I think they would have liked to have both for a cup run then let Marner walk. That sounds like what that plan was originally. Bolster for a deep cup run

How do you know, just how it went down? I’ve read here quite awhile ago that he refused 12, we’ve read that Kypreos claimed he was looking close to 14. I’ve been reading recently he isn’t even negotiating? How do you know if they are or aren’t negotiating. I would agree they more than likely don’t want it public.
 

How do you know, just how it went down? I’ve read here quite awhile ago that he refused 12, we’ve read that Kypreos claimed he was looking close to 14. I’ve been reading recently he isn’t even negotiating? How do you know if they are or aren’t negotiating. I would agree they more than likely don’t want it public.

The fact that there isn’t consistency in the number is proof enough Marner’s camp isn’t negotiating. Even Brads comments this season have leaned towards there hasn’t been any sort of concrete negotiations. If there was, we’d all know the number but we don’t.

Additionally sir, we have consistent reporting from insiders that the leafs did in fact offer Cowan and Minten plus two firsts for Rantanen. We also know that Knies was asked for before Marner. (This seems to be the most consistent reporting)
 
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The fact that there isn’t consistency in the number is proof enough Marner’s camp isn’t negotiating. Even Brads comments this season have leaned towards there hasn’t been any sort of concrete negotiations. If there was, we’d all know the number but we don’t.

Additionally sir, we have consistent reporting from insiders that the leafs did in fact offer Cowan and Minten plus two firsts for Rantanen. We also know that Knies was asked for before Marner. (This seems to be the most consistent reporting)
I didn’t know that about the bolded but that makes absolute sense on Carolina’s part. Cheers
 
How do you know, just how it went down? I’ve read here quite awhile ago that he refused 12, we’ve read that Kypreos claimed he was looking close to 14. I’ve been reading recently he isn’t even negotiating? How do you know if they are or aren’t negotiating. I would agree they more than likely don’t want it public.
Kyper knows the family and Ferris so I tend to think he knows something. When he said Drai money I thought he was a Marner shill. Facing backlash he said $13.8m the next day. I believe him more today than I did then. Lebrun said $14m. What is consistent is that any numbers the media have talked about do not start with a 12.

Either way, if he refuses to negotiate in season he saved the Leafs from themselves IMO.
 
I didn’t know that about the bolded but that makes absolute sense on Carolina’s part. Cheers
Canes wanted at least one roster player and they got Stankoven from Dallas. They were never taking two prospects and two 1sts from the Leafs for Rantanen.

No way do Leafs trade Knies and assets for Rantanen and then not be able to sign Marner. The trade that made the most sense for the Leafs was pending UFA for pending UFA.
 
Historically, forward position/playstyle hasn't made much of a difference when it comes to salary. The biggest post-ELC and UFA cap hit percentages throughout the cap era include both wingers and playmakers. It's about the impact you bring, not how you bring it.

I'm not sure where you got this list from, but most of those players aren't goal scorers, and while a lot of the best kids get brought up as and become centers, that does not equate to centers inherently getting paid a different amount relative to quality because of their position.
Spotrac is the source.

Most of those Centres are. Can't we classify people who score 40+goals as goal scorers? Most of them have had more 30 and 40 goal seasons than Marner. When you say "most" what do you mean? Obviously subtracting the goalies and D.

I would say Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, Panarin, JT, Nylander, Pasta, MacKinnon, Seguin, Benn were all considered "goal scorers" when signed vs Playmakers. That would be about about 2/3rds of the list when considering just forwards. The top 5 of that list are all "goal scoring centres" outside of Karlsson. Just seems that factually most of the NHL pays goal scoring centres the most, probably because they impact the game most?
 
They didn't know anything, and both speculation and the maximum possible increase at the time were well below where it ended up.

They both want to stay. Draisaitl could have waited, but he chose to sign early, because his team worked hard to sign him and offered him 14m, and he wanted to lock that in and not take any risks. Also probably easier to do when you don't have a barrage of toxic, irrational fans blaming you for everything.

It's not an easy assumption to make. Not signing early =/= only caring about money. That's such a massive logical leap.

Agents still need to communicate with players to properly represent them, and players are allowed to not want those distractions while they're working. The team was aware of this and could have done something last offseason. The contract wasn't even dominating discussion until the GM started playing stupid, pointless games at the deadline and put it into the spotlight.

Round number is meaningless in our current system. It provides no insight into the quality of your team, what you faced, what happened, and why. 1st round often features some of the toughest matchups, and the outcome of a series has nothing to do with what happened in past years.

We've actually dealt with quite a few injuries and losses over the years. Kadri in 2018. Kadri, Hyman, and Gardiner in 2019. Muzzin and Johnsson in 2020, plus Mikheyev playing his first games after his sliced wrist. Tavares, Matthews, Muzzin, and Foligno in 2021, plus Hyman playing his first games after another big knee injury. Bunting in 2022. Knies, Bunting, and Samsonov in 2023, plus the permanent loss of Muzzin. Matthews, Nylander, McMann, and Woll in 2024. It's possible to win despite injuries, but let's not pretend that injuries haven't been one of the contributing factors here, especially with the margins so tiny.

Well aside from you putting words in my mouth, and aside from the fact that it wasn't only 1st round exits, the series outcomes don't erase what we were. Some of the best teams in modern history lost in the first round; some in much worse ways than anything we've done. Losing to Cup finalists by the margins we did in the circumstances we had doesn't make us and everybody associated with us bad. Crazy enough, from 2019-2020 to 2022-2023, we actually had a positive playoff goal differential. I know you'll say who cares, but it's a good example of how the narrative born out of looking exclusively at playoff series record doesn't reflect how we actually performed or the miniscule change required to flip the outcome.

Blaming our outcomes on the cap hits of those forwards is such a lazy argument. They aren't the reason we've lost. Their cap hits aren't the reason we've lost. Getting rid of them isn't going to help us win. We had an even worse playoff record when these guys gave us more surplus value than anything we could ever dream of, and the rising cap environment really changes what "continue doing it" even means.

There's more to hockey than points, and not only is that playoff production not even bad, it's even more understandable when you don't intentionally ignore all context.

Every playoff game is important. Nitpicking when points come is ridiculous. Especially when his late series production has been more so a result of abnormally low point credit for goals he contributes to, and conversion struggles by others, more than him changing.

Maybe it's time you start to look at your eye test and overreliance on series outcomes and points in small samples without context, and begin to realize how flawed they are. The analytics that teams use are more detailed and in depth, but are based on similar fundamentals and methodology.

It is our team's main goal. Wanting to be paid properly for your work like everybody else does not mean you aren't trying to win. Matthews, Tavares, and Marner all could have gotten a decent amount more pennies if they really wanted to push it and use their leverage.

There is a difference between drawing from one aspect of futures during a competitive phase to improve the present, and just outright making yourself worse in both the present and future for no reason. You're underrating Marner's impact on all aspects of this team (offense, defense, transition, etc. in every game state and situation, not to even mention off-ice in the room), while overrating the alternative options that actually exist, and how much is actually accomplished with ~13m in UFA under a 95.5m cap. And if our pool is so trash, and our draft picks are so depleted, what are we trading?

First off, there's a big difference between getting that cap space from losing what is essentially dead cap vs. losing one of the best players in the world. And second, you're pointing at an outlier that wasn't even really about cap. It was a mixture of some good moves working out, improvements in existing players, and some overachievment.

Protas and McMichael exploding isn't about cap. Ovechkin's last gasp isn't about cap. Logan Thompson putting up the 2nd best GSAx in the league for 767k isn't about cap. We could have signed Roy. Even Chychrun is only 4.6m. Making good moves doesn't mean or require getting rid of your best players to throw cap at stuff in UFA.

So if we arbitrarily remove the times when the team lost without Marner, we can pretend that the team is good without Marner? Come on man. Yes, these "without X" records are meaningless. No, the solution is not to manipulate them until they work for your argument. Nobody "gave up" on Babcock. Babcock just sucked.

The point is, we've already had the kind of depth that costs that amount in UFA. Paying more for them doesn't improve anything. What made us good was having both our core pieces AND those depth pieces. Trading the better core pieces that can't be replaced for cheaper for the worse depth pieces that can be obtained for cheaper doesn't give you a better chance of winning.

Not even sure what you're attempting to argue here. We've had cheap and effective depth in all positions and roles throughout the lineup. And being able to play with players like Marner really helps elevate and shelter the ones playing in our top 6, and boost the surplus value they bring. Nobody has said that our offense would "dry up". But it's pretty silly to think that it wouldn't be affected by losing one of the best offensive players in the league. Not to mention all of the other things that would be impacted.

With Tavares at 7 and Marner at 13.5, that would be 71.5m for the core 4 + top 4 + 2G, not 75m. Knies and McMann finish off our top six for what, 7m? If we keep Domi, Laughton, and Jarnkrok, that's another 7m. Which leaves 10m, and only 4th line and bottom pairing to fill. And then an extra 9m the next year with our main pieces already signed. Same the year after that. Where's the crisis?

Not sure what you're talking about. Florida had depth players on depth contracts in depth roles. They haven't been able to keep everybody. 9 of the 22 players Florida used on their way to the cup weren't there the year before, and 9 of those 22 players are gone this year, including the likes of Montour. They're likely looking at more losses - potentially Bennett - this offseason. That's the cap world. What Florida actually did is re-sign their most important players, which is what I am advocating for with the likes of Marner/Tavares/Knies.

That 10m goalie went on an amazing run... and a couple months prior, he had lost his net to a fringe backup, and that GM was rumoured to be looking to retain millions for years to dump his ass. Just goes to show how fast things can change in the NHL.

What available goalie would you like to spend 10m on? It's great for Florida that Bobrovsky went on a run at the right time, but even if you get the opportunity for a signing like that, there is a big risk involved in spending so much on such a volatile position where cost has such a weak correlation with performance. It can carry your team, or absolutely sink it. Heck, at the same time, Florida was paying another goalie who didn't even play for them more than our entire goalie budget this year.
The only one that was well below the projections was the 2026/27 season. Cap projection was 92 mil for next season and is gonna be 95 so not a huge difference.

Fans are now to blame for him not signing early? Fans are making it hard for him to sign his name on a contract that his agent negotiates and asks him if he's good with. Saying Draisatl signed early because Edmonton tried harder is a pathetic excuse being made for Marner. Probably easier to sign someone who was putting up 50 goals and 110+ points and a 128 point season while making 8.5 mil. Also putting up 30+ in the playoffs for 2 of their playoff runs. Yet our guy was making 11 million that entire time and didn't put up those kind of stats and now deserves the same as Drai? Yeah right.

It's not an easy assumption to make if him and his agent didn't do this before, but they have so it makes it an easy assumption.

What distraction is reading a simple text an agent sends with the numbers offered? Something he probably does many times a day but it's a distraction if his agent sends him offers from the team he supposedly wants to stay on. The GM did his job and you trying to spin that to making it out to be him playing stupid games is the most desperate thing I've seen trying to defend a player. GM gave him an out and had a way to help cover the loss of Marner right away like a GM should do.

Enough of these lame ass excuses. This core being eliminated in the 1st round every year of their careers so far is a disgrace when they are making the money they make. We had 3 guys being paid like top 10 players in the entire league over the years and nothing. All these excuses mean nothing that you make up. We got goalied, 1st round matchups are tougher, injuries. If paying our top heavy guys that much can't overcome those issues then why the hell do we keep doing it then and expecting different results.

Every team deals with injuries. Hell, Boston literally lost their top 2 centers in Bergeron and Kreici and still beat us. Lucky for us when we lost Tavares we still had Matthews, Marner and Nylander. When we lost Matthews and Nylander we still had Tavares and Marner. Other teams don't have that luxury and they still overcome all that crap.

That isn't me putting words in your mouth. Those are things you have said in one way or another. TB got swept not long ago to Columbus so good teams do lose in the 1st round. Do I have to tell you how a lot of those teams respond usually the following years? A lot of those teams aren't as top heavy as ours cap wise which is a point that's been made about our roster for years that you seem not to get. You keep trying to give these meaningless stats to try and convince us we were a good team when the fact is in the end 4-3 series loss is all that matters. Those stats might mean something if we actually made some damn progress over those years and then we lose a 1st round after a few deep runs, but that's not the case.

We haven't won shit with those cap hits. Haven't come close to reaching the ultimate goal with those cap hits. Got nothing in return for those cap hits. Lets keep running it back so if they end up like Washingtons old core and do well 1 time their entire careers you and these contract defenders can go I told you so. Yeah lets not do that.

Wins are better than points. If you aren't gonna help us win when it matters then you could at least be up their leading the league in points or top 3 at least. Right? Is that asking too much? It's funny you bring up context while mentioning his playoff production. You and others will say his playoff production is fine and ignore how bad they are in in Games 4-7 every year while inflating their stats usually in games 1 and 2 when the games are usually high scoring. It's not nitpicking when it's what the stat sheet says and what we can all see with our own very eyes. Only Marner gets these excuses made up for him that he's helping in other ways that don't show up on the stats sheet. Well, so do others who don't get paid like he does and you and others try and blame them for us losing every year.

You say things like this about analytics and wonder why nobody takes them serious anymore. We have lost in the 1st round every year with this core but the analytics said they should win so you go and say series wins don't mean anything. The main difference with teams analytical departments and a lot of you internet analytics people is those ones employed by teams probably know when to admit something isn't working. Look at the analytical community darling Tulsky in Carolina. He has said that you can't keep replacing guys with league min guys and expect to get better. I could even link the interview where he says that at the end of this because he says even more about clinging on to what we were instead of trying to move forward.

Everyone is entitled to get paid what they think they're worth. The problem with that is they aren't worth what they want. Tavares was a 30 goal guys who put up 70-80 points mostly and we paid him 11 mil. In what world is that kind of production worth 11 mil? Sure he could've got more somewhere else like San Jose but that was a team at the end of their road and a roster of players not making 10+ mil. We could've easily kept Kadri at 4.5 mil to be the 2C and doe just as well. Matthews at least scored 40+ consistently and won the rocket a few times and was a legit 1C so you don't mind paying him. What has Marner done though where he can just get whatever the hell he wants? He doesn't finish top 5 in scoring ever. Do we pay players based off their analytics player cards people post? Expected goals for %?

I'm not underrating his impact. He's a great player but what has this core done that they deserve to be paid whatever the hell they want when us as fans and the team get nothing in return except 1st round exits. Alternative options being that we fill out our depth with actual good players instead of league min defensive specialists isn't an overrated option. 13 mil could do a lot, especially if we get rid of Kampf and Jarnkrok to get it closer to 18 mil and got the defence and goaltending locked up for the next few years. That's a lot of cap to get 2 guys to help the 3rd line because Domi could move up to the top line again and maybe 1 or 2 guys to fight for a 4th line spot and another guy to fight for 3rd pair defence spot.

They drafted well and used UFA to make their depth much better. They got good after getting to move away from their old core. They made the mistake of keeping them too long when they didn't work out. Now we want to do the same damn thing just to keep Marner. We could've had Roy but he chose Washington which is expected from Americans in FA. Instead we got Tanev and traded for Carlo so I think we're good.

So the team didn't give up on Babcock but as soon as he was fired they went on a pretty good stretch right away that even started with Marner still injured. Just a coincidence though right?

We haven't though. We had soft players that played perimeter games which didn't work in the playoffs. They weren't good enough offensively to play playoff hockey. Over all of those years all of our depth guys combined probably have fewer than 10 goals scored in all those 1st round exits. Keeping what doesn't work is just foolish, especially if they want to take every penny they can get while being the 1 player with the most endorsements in the NHL.

You say this all the time. The funny thing is players have these kinds of impacts and make much less than Marner. You don't need 1 player who can provide everything Marner does because clearly that's not working to take this team to the next level.

71 mil is correct. I must of added Domis cap as well and forgot to mention it. Knies alone is gonna make 7 mil most likely unless we bridge him. Only 4th line and bottom pair d man to get? We'll need another 3rd liner because Jarnkrok shouldn't be back. I'm not gonna repeat what I already said above not long before this to make this even longer.

Those players you call depth players got paid. The fact has always been their core didn't include 3 or 4 11+ mil players which made it possible to sign all those depth players to 3+ mil deals and one even getting 7 mil. A lot of the ones who didn't return were either rental players or 4th liners. Montour was the only one who you could say was neither of those things. I don't get how that's not hard to understand. Fewer players who make 11+ mil means you can sign and keep important depth pieces on the team.

I wouldn't spend 10+ million on a goalie. Crazy to think it takes just 1 player to stop our 40+ million dollar core though. Don't you think? Also that comment was sarcasm about us being stupid not signing a goalie to 10 mil instead of on 1 forward. Thought it was obvious but I guess not.



Idk if this starts at the right spot but it's around the 24 minute mark about the league min signings and clinging onto the past.
 
Canes wanted at least one roster player and they got Stankoven from Dallas. They were never taking two prospects and two 1sts from the Leafs for Rantanen.

No way do Leafs trade Knies and assets for Rantanen and then not be able to sign Marner. The trade that made the most sense for the Leafs was pending UFA for pending UFA.

Trade that made the most sense for the leafs was futures for a double retained Rantanen that comes with an extension. Not UFA for UFA.

Leafs were looking to load up.
 
Did it occur to you that Marner was the one helping to create those high danger scoring chances for Matty and Knies? He's by far the primary assist guy / creating time and space guy on a line with (2) 30+ goal scorers this year (one of who can score 50-69 btw) . . . so tell me, what relevance does Marner's high danger scoring chances have to do with his line?

Anyone? Anyone?

Nothing.
The answer is . . . nothing.
Great question.

I've posted numerous times that Sportsnet Reporter in 2019 showed an advance stat in sports logiq that tracked "scoring chance generating plays" which tracks how often a player generates scoring chance for a teammate. One would expect playmaker Marner, who shouldn't be judged on his goal stats, would be among the leaders in this category right?

Well he's wasn't even the 1st or 2nd or 3rd on the list for his own team!

The order in the league that year: 1)Mcdavid 2)Crosby 3)Matthews, 12)Tavares, 22)Nylander, 26)Marner.

Here's the highlight quotes:

"Not bad 26th in entire league, but 4th on the leaf and also not far ahead of former leaf Nazem Kadri"

"Marner isn't the guy driving the bus on hisnline, it's Tavares"

"This is a thing with John Tavares, linemates have career seasons with him"

"Marner might be the most overrated player in the NHL because the Toronto presence is so powerful"

Marner fans rebuttals? "Lol Berkshire is an idiot!"

Yep, alot like there other favorite rebuttals:
"LOL you admitted you don't watch games, so your a liar"

Or "you cherry picked that number"

Or "that is too small a sample size"

Notice how they don't come back with stats as rebuttals?
 
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Great question.

I've posted numerous times that Sportsnet Reporter showed an advance stat in 2019 that tracked "scoring chance generating plays". One would expect playmaker Marner, who shouldn't be judged on his goal stats, would be among the leaders in this category right?

Well he's wasn't even the 1st or 2nd or 3rd or 4th on the list for his own team!

The order was: Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Marner.

Marner fans rebuttals? Lol Berkshire is an idiot!

Yep, alot like there other favorite rebuttals "LOL you admitted you don't watch games, so your a liar"

Or "you cherry picked that number"

Or "that is too small a sample size"

Notice how they don't come back with stats as rebuttals?

Birkshire is an idiot and there’s a reason why no major hockey media company (print or online) has touched his work in over 4 years.
 
Trade that made the most sense for the leafs was futures for a double retained Rantanen that comes with an extension. Not UFA for UFA.

Leafs were looking to load up.
Canes were not doing a trade for futures only. Leafs primed for a run but unless they win the cup, it would have been a bad trade imo.
 
The only one that was well below the projections was the 2026/27 season. Cap projection was 92 mil for next season and is gonna be 95 so not a huge difference.

Fans are now to blame for him not signing early? Fans are making it hard for him to sign his name on a contract that his agent negotiates and asks him if he's good with. Saying Draisatl signed early because Edmonton tried harder is a pathetic excuse being made for Marner. Probably easier to sign someone who was putting up 50 goals and 110+ points and a 128 point season while making 8.5 mil. Also putting up 30+ in the playoffs for 2 of their playoff runs. Yet our guy was making 11 million that entire time and didn't put up those kind of stats and now deserves the same as Drai? Yeah right.

It's not an easy assumption to make if him and his agent didn't do this before, but they have so it makes it an easy assumption.

What distraction is reading a simple text an agent sends with the numbers offered? Something he probably does many times a day but it's a distraction if his agent sends him offers from the team he supposedly wants to stay on. The GM did his job and you trying to spin that to making it out to be him playing stupid games is the most desperate thing I've seen trying to defend a player. GM gave him an out and had a way to help cover the loss of Marner right away like a GM should do.

Enough of these lame ass excuses. This core being eliminated in the 1st round every year of their careers so far is a disgrace when they are making the money they make. We had 3 guys being paid like top 10 players in the entire league over the years and nothing. All these excuses mean nothing that you make up. We got goalied, 1st round matchups are tougher, injuries. If paying our top heavy guys that much can't overcome those issues then why the hell do we keep doing it then and expecting different results.

Every team deals with injuries. Hell, Boston literally lost their top 2 centers in Bergeron and Kreici and still beat us. Lucky for us when we lost Tavares we still had Matthews, Marner and Nylander. When we lost Matthews and Nylander we still had Tavares and Marner. Other teams don't have that luxury and they still overcome all that crap.

That isn't me putting words in your mouth. Those are things you have said in one way or another. TB got swept not long ago to Columbus so good teams do lose in the 1st round. Do I have to tell you how a lot of those teams respond usually the following years? A lot of those teams aren't as top heavy as ours cap wise which is a point that's been made about our roster for years that you seem not to get. You keep trying to give these meaningless stats to try and convince us we were a good team when the fact is in the end 4-3 series loss is all that matters. Those stats might mean something if we actually made some damn progress over those years and then we lose a 1st round after a few deep runs, but that's not the case.

We haven't won shit with those cap hits. Haven't come close to reaching the ultimate goal with those cap hits. Got nothing in return for those cap hits. Lets keep running it back so if they end up like Washingtons old core and do well 1 time their entire careers you and these contract defenders can go I told you so. Yeah lets not do that.

Wins are better than points. If you aren't gonna help us win when it matters then you could at least be up their leading the league in points or top 3 at least. Right? Is that asking too much? It's funny you bring up context while mentioning his playoff production. You and others will say his playoff production is fine and ignore how bad they are in in Games 4-7 every year while inflating their stats usually in games 1 and 2 when the games are usually high scoring. It's not nitpicking when it's what the stat sheet says and what we can all see with our own very eyes. Only Marner gets these excuses made up for him that he's helping in other ways that don't show up on the stats sheet. Well, so do others who don't get paid like he does and you and others try and blame them for us losing every year.

You say things like this about analytics and wonder why nobody takes them serious anymore. We have lost in the 1st round every year with this core but the analytics said they should win so you go and say series wins don't mean anything. The main difference with teams analytical departments and a lot of you internet analytics people is those ones employed by teams probably know when to admit something isn't working. Look at the analytical community darling Tulsky in Carolina. He has said that you can't keep replacing guys with league min guys and expect to get better. I could even link the interview where he says that at the end of this because he says even more about clinging on to what we were instead of trying to move forward.

Everyone is entitled to get paid what they think they're worth. The problem with that is they aren't worth what they want. Tavares was a 30 goal guys who put up 70-80 points mostly and we paid him 11 mil. In what world is that kind of production worth 11 mil? Sure he could've got more somewhere else like San Jose but that was a team at the end of their road and a roster of players not making 10+ mil. We could've easily kept Kadri at 4.5 mil to be the 2C and doe just as well. Matthews at least scored 40+ consistently and won the rocket a few times and was a legit 1C so you don't mind paying him. What has Marner done though where he can just get whatever the hell he wants? He doesn't finish top 5 in scoring ever. Do we pay players based off their analytics player cards people post? Expected goals for %?

I'm not underrating his impact. He's a great player but what has this core done that they deserve to be paid whatever the hell they want when us as fans and the team get nothing in return except 1st round exits. Alternative options being that we fill out our depth with actual good players instead of league min defensive specialists isn't an overrated option. 13 mil could do a lot, especially if we get rid of Kampf and Jarnkrok to get it closer to 18 mil and got the defence and goaltending locked up for the next few years. That's a lot of cap to get 2 guys to help the 3rd line because Domi could move up to the top line again and maybe 1 or 2 guys to fight for a 4th line spot and another guy to fight for 3rd pair defence spot.

They drafted well and used UFA to make their depth much better. They got good after getting to move away from their old core. They made the mistake of keeping them too long when they didn't work out. Now we want to do the same damn thing just to keep Marner. We could've had Roy but he chose Washington which is expected from Americans in FA. Instead we got Tanev and traded for Carlo so I think we're good.

So the team didn't give up on Babcock but as soon as he was fired they went on a pretty good stretch right away that even started with Marner still injured. Just a coincidence though right?

We haven't though. We had soft players that played perimeter games which didn't work in the playoffs. They weren't good enough offensively to play playoff hockey. Over all of those years all of our depth guys combined probably have fewer than 10 goals scored in all those 1st round exits. Keeping what doesn't work is just foolish, especially if they want to take every penny they can get while being the 1 player with the most endorsements in the NHL.

You say this all the time. The funny thing is players have these kinds of impacts and make much less than Marner. You don't need 1 player who can provide everything Marner does because clearly that's not working to take this team to the next level.

71 mil is correct. I must of added Domis cap as well and forgot to mention it. Knies alone is gonna make 7 mil most likely unless we bridge him. Only 4th line and bottom pair d man to get? We'll need another 3rd liner because Jarnkrok shouldn't be back. I'm not gonna repeat what I already said above not long before this to make this even longer.

Those players you call depth players got paid. The fact has always been their core didn't include 3 or 4 11+ mil players which made it possible to sign all those depth players to 3+ mil deals and one even getting 7 mil. A lot of the ones who didn't return were either rental players or 4th liners. Montour was the only one who you could say was neither of those things. I don't get how that's not hard to understand. Fewer players who make 11+ mil means you can sign and keep important depth pieces on the team.

I wouldn't spend 10+ million on a goalie. Crazy to think it takes just 1 player to stop our 40+ million dollar core though. Don't you think? Also that comment was sarcasm about us being stupid not signing a goalie to 10 mil instead of on 1 forward. Thought it was obvious but I guess not.



Idk if this starts at the right spot but it's around the 24 minute mark about the league min signings and clinging onto the past.

Dubas was the one who kept saying it was up to him to fill around the margins with league minimum depth players as if he was the lone genius in the NHL...last time I checked, he's doing an amazing job in Pittsburg surrounding Crosby, Malkin, Letang and the like with his depth signings...bringing his highly successful strategy from one team to the next...:sarcasm:
 
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Birkshire is an idiot and there’s a reason why no major hockey media company (print or online) has touched his work in over 4 years.
.... so you are saying he read the data wrong?

He said the data said, Marner is overrated as a playmaker, isn't worth Matthews pay, Tavares was the line driver in 2019, Tavares statistically boosted his linemates (ie Anders Lee and Matt Moulson had huge drops in points without Tavares), Marner produces on the PP - overrated 5v5, Matthews, Tavares, Nylander generate more scoring chances for their linemates.

So... we have 5 years of data now since.

In hindsight what does he look wrong about?
Marner is overrated as a playmaker
- He isnt setting up many chances


isn't worth Matthews pay,
- yes definitely he's nowhere near Matthews value (Matthews is a big center, and has a full trophy case - Marner no major awards)

Tavares was the line driver in 2019, Tavares statistically boosted his linemates (ie Anders Lee and Matt Moulson had huge drops in points without Tavares)
- Matthews in many seasons has been productive without Marner. Tavares in many seasons has been more productive without Marner.

Marner produces on the PP - overrated 5v5
- 5v5 point producing machine Matthews is propping his 5v5 stats. Matthews was #1 in goal th3 the 3 seasons before Marner was on his line, even with Johnsson, Kapanen and Marleau.

Matthews, Tavares, Nylander generate more scoring chances for their linemates.
Looks accurate this year. Marners 5v5 goal and primary assist totals are higher than Marners. Secondary assists is the only thing keeping Marner up.


In hindsight... Berkshire looks about dead on in his assessment in 2019.
 
Only two players have scored more goals in the league since Tavares entered the league. Ovechkin and Stamkos.

Matthews - led the league in 5v5 goals his first 3 seasons, Marner wasnt on his line.
Tavares - was a top 3 goal scorer in the NHL since entering the league. He played 9 of those years with Islanders.
Nylander - 3 consecutive 40 goal seasons. Hardly ever plays with Marner.

OMFG Marner gets so many assists, and leads the Leafs in assists he must be the best player ever!

Whose gonna benefit the most from playing with these incredible goal scorers? Someone has to get assists on these guys goals.
 

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