Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[IPS]

Lmfao one thing I really do appreciate about you is you have a good sense of humour, it’s just light hearted fun

Surely we're all here for entertainment, right?

 

[francis246]

We like marner but not at 14 million
Its simple
He didnt sign didnt waive people just want to know why he thinks he so much better than anyone

So doing what’s allowed in the cba makes you better than everyone? Get a grip man.

The fact that people are holding either of those two things against him is absolutely moronic. Both those things are the players contractual right.

I think you can be upset with his play in the playoffs - that’s a fair thing to not like him for.

His media comments - fair thing

But he isn’t contractually obligated to have to sign right now and he isn’t contractually obligated to waive. - you can’t be upset about those two things cause he’s not breaking any rules.

 

[daveleaf]

No way to know obviously but depending on who we traded him for, perhaps we would have won a cup by now.


Against Boston, he drove us right out of the playoffs in round 1. Three points in 7 games for 11 million, holy smokes what a ripoff that was. Might have even been worse than the last playoff series he played, I don't know though, his play was pretty pukeworthy against Florida. Absolute garbage the last 2 series he played, not good.

A better question - how hard can it be to improve on a guy who turns into a ~40 point forward after 86 games?

Matthews has also been a playoff disappointment, not as disappointing as Marner though. But whatever, there's another thread for Hart boy.

The part I was referring to was when Mathews was out earlier this year. I thought MM and Tavares played great.

Let’s be honest, they’ve all sucked in the playoffs. Only guy that played well in my opinion last year was Nylander and he let them have it on the bench. If I had to choose between MM and AM for me it’s Mitch. I think he needs an absolute dog on his line, like a Tucker. The player we get in for AM could round out this team and also make the cap easier to navigate.

 

[ToneDog]

We like marner but not at 14 million
Its simple
He didnt sign didnt waive people just want to know why he thinks he so much better than anyone

Has he won a Cup? No.
Has he won trophies? No (sorry Molson Cup does not count)
Has he scored 100 points? No (sorry nobody pays for pace)
Has he scored 40+ goals? No

So what makes him worth $13-$14m ? Nothing, because he is not and if the Leafs cave, they might as well up all their efforts into selling jerseys because there are not winning a Cup. Anybody thinking they will because the Caps eventually did, God bless you and your patience.

 

[666]

I almost hope the Leafs keep Marner.

A lot of my daily entertainment is a result of him being on the team.

Yikes.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I explained that Nylander is Rants equivalent. The obvious conclusion is that the Leafs were willing to trade for an unsigned Nylander equivalent or lose Marner for nothing. Now they just get nothing. Trading Rant for nothing is a good deal.

If you are saying that Nylander is Rantanen's equal (which I don't necessarily agree with), then you are saying Nylander is better than Marner. OK.

But that wasn't anything like what my point was in the post you quoted. The fact that Tre was willing to trade Marner for Rantanen is an indication that he values Rantanen at $12M at least as much as Marner, so he's effectively putting a value of $12M on Marner.

If Marner will sign here for $12, that's not too bad, and if he wants more then we are better off without him.

 

[666]

If you are saying that Nylander is Rantanen's equal (which I don't necessarily agree with), then you are saying Nylander is better than Marner. OK.

But that wasn't anything like what my point was in the post you quoted. The fact that Tre was willing to trade Marner for Rantanen is an indication that he values Rantanen at $12M at least as much as Marner, so he's effectively putting a value of $12M on Marner.

If Marner will sign here for $12, that's not too bad, and if he wants more then we are better off without him.

No. The fact is Tre was willing to trade Marner for Rantanen OR LOSE MARNER for nothing. There is no equivalence of value.

 

[ACC1224]

 

[daveleaf]

I still think they will sign him but it is disappointing that Marner didn't put this extension as a priority.
I get not wanting the distraction during the season but that's not enough of an excuse, IMO.

I tried but couldn't get a straight answer on why this was the strategy.

I find it disappointing as well. Leafs have been good about keeping stuff out of the media and they would have kept this quiet as well. I’m not sure what the motivation for him not signing but it makes me believe he wants to move on.

 

[ACC1224]

I find it disappointing as well. Leafs have been good about keeping stuff out of the media and they would have kept this quiet as well. I’m not sure what the motivation for him not signing but it makes me believe he wants to move on.

From everything I've been told he doesn't but he's not doing himself any favours by waiting it out.

 

[francis246]

I find it disappointing as well. Leafs have been good about keeping stuff out of the media and they would have kept this quiet as well. I’m not sure what the motivation for him not signing but it makes me believe he wants to move on.

Me too, or at the very least, he is OPEN to the idea of moving on. I always try to look at things from both the player and fan perspective.

If I could guess, I think Marner used the 4 nations to see what it would be like to play with other elite guys and see where he matches up. It sucks he didn’t prioritize the extension of course but it feels like he’s just open to the possibility of another situation. I’m sure the internal struggle is a mix of what @Gary Nylund references and what maybe his head is telling him.

I think his heart feels what Gary is saying - stay and make it work, be the Toronto kid to make it happen and you’ll get all you can dream of

But his head is probably saying, get the fck out of here in another market where it’s not as noisy and enjoy being a hockey player in a less stressful situation. That’s the only rational I can think that makes sense.

 

[daveleaf]

Is he a good teammate? It sounds like most of the dressing room is tired of him.



They tried to trade him.

Where do you get most of the team is tired of him?

 

[Gary Nylund]

The part I was referring to was when Mathews was out earlier this year. I thought MM and Tavares played great.

Let’s be honest, they’ve all sucked in the playoffs. Only guy that played well in my opinion last year was Nylander and he let them have it on the bench. If I had to choose between MM and AM for me it’s Mitch. I think he needs an absolute dog on his line, like a Tucker. The player we get in for AM could round out this team and also make the cap easier to navigate.

If we're talking about the core 4, I don't agree that they've all sucked in the playoffs. And up until now, Nylander was making a lot less than the others so the bar's not set as high for him. If I had to rate them for all their playoffs with the Leafs, it might go something like this (on a scale of 1-10):

Nylander - 8.5
Matthews - 7
Marner - 6
Tavares - 5

If all these guys earn an 8.5 this spring, we will make some noise. Here's hoping.

Matthews is a franchise #1C and way more valuable than Marner IMO. Marner also sees his production drop from ~100 point pace to ~40 point pace after 86 games, that's a big problem. In any case, all the big guns have NMC's, and Marner will also if he signs so I don't think anyone's going anywhere any time soon.

 

[Antropovsky]

I think he’s a player with unique skills and because of that needs certain players around him. Now from what I remember when Mathews went down for an extended period of time Mitch was having a career year. He was actually shooting the puck and the PP was actually playing well. As soon as Mathews came back the team was standing around again on the PP and looking for Mathews weak side for a one timer.
A player doesn’t have to excel at all facets of the game to make a difference. He will never be a banger, trash talker dirty player but that’s exactly what he needs around him. For all the negatives you posted about Mitch at four nations it was his overtime goal in game 1 that was the goal that sent them to the finals. In OT in the finals it was him digging the puck off the boards below the goal line to feed McDavid, who lost, shall we say, Mathews to score the winner.
Mitch creates too much from the wing, as much as most centres in the league. Come playoff time this team lacks a dog mentality to get lose pucks. Thats Knies job but not Marriner.

When Matthews was out, Marner was producing almost nothing at 5v5. Most of his points came in 3v3, with the goalie pulled, or on the power play, along with Nylander and Tavares, who were also producing a lot.

Marner has 0 primary assists at 5v5 in his last 16 games. That’s a pretty lousy stat for someone supposedly such an incredible playmaker that he shouldn’t be judged on his goal totals.

He’s not a bad player, of course, but he has some major flaws. Personally, if I were building a team to win a championship, I wouldn’t want any leaders who refuse to go to the dirty areas. On top of that, I certainly wouldn’t want a player who repeatedly lashes out at the media and fans for having high expectations or being too harsh. Especially not in Toronto. I think his weaknesses could have a detrimental effect on the dressing room. If I did, I definitely wouldn't pay a player 15% of the cap.

 

[ACC1224]

Where do you get most of the team is tired of him?

It's all made up like most everything else his distractors post about him.

 

[daveleaf]

When Matthews was out, Marner was producing almost nothing at 5v5. Most of his points came in 3v3, with the goalie pulled, or on the power play, along with Nylander and Tavares, who were also producing a lot.

Marner has 0 primary assists at 5v5 in his last 16 games. That’s a pretty lousy stat for someone supposedly such an incredible playmaker that he shouldn’t be judged on his goal totals.

He’s not a bad player, of course, but he has some major flaws. Personally, if I were building a team to win a championship, I wouldn’t want any leaders who refuse to go to the dirty areas. On top of that, I certainly wouldn’t want a player who repeatedly lashes out at the media and fans for having high expectations or being too harsh. Especially not in Toronto. I think his weaknesses could have a detrimental effect on the dressing room. If I did, I definitely wouldn't pay a player 15% of the cap.

I never realized his stats were that bad the last number of games

 

[Gary Nylund]

When Matthews was out, Marner was producing almost nothing at 5v5. Most of his points came in 3v3, with the goalie pulled, or on the power play, along with Nylander and Tavares, who were also producing a lot.

Marner has 0 primary assists at 5v5 in his last 16 games. That’s a pretty lousy stat for someone supposedly such an incredible playmaker that he shouldn’t be judged on his goal totals.

He’s not a bad player, of course, but he has some major flaws. Personally, if I were building a team to win a championship, I wouldn’t want any leaders who refuse to go to the dirty areas. On top of that, I certainly wouldn’t want a player who repeatedly lashes out at the media and fans for having high expectations or being too harsh. Especially not in Toronto. I think his weaknesses could have a detrimental effect on the dressing room. If I did, I definitely wouldn't pay a player 15% of the cap.

Really? Wow, that's seems pretty bad. I mean I'm not that big on stats but that really does seem ... pretty bad.

 

[notDatsyuk]

No. The fact is Tre was willing to trade Marner for Rantanen OR LOSE MARNER for nothing. There is no equivalence of value.

You again missed the point (and most if my post).

So Tre thinks Marner is worth $12M and if he wants more we're better off letting him walk? I agree.

 

[Stringer Bell]

From everything I've been told he doesn't but he's not doing himself any favours by waiting it out.

Who is telling you?

 

[therealkoho]

And when we separate him from Matthews, he becomes invisible.

What kind of 13-14M player needs another 13M forward to look decent?

Separated from Matthews and Johnny's headed to 40

 

[666]

Marner has 0 primary assists at 5v5 in his last 16 games.

This is a fact. You're learning to not draw conclusions based on little data other than that you are correct in identifying it as a bit of a slump.
Unfortunately as ALWAYS you leave out any of the good stuff and use one short run of one isolated stat to say much more than is reality.
So here are some of the things that you forgot to mention:

In the time period of the last 16 games:
At 5v5 he is tied for the most goals on the team but only 7th in shots taken.
At 5v5 he is tied for second (after Matthews) in total points.
At 5v5 he has been on for 11 goals for and 7 against.

The team has won 10 times but 4 of them in OT/SO
At 5v5 the team is GF 35 GA 33, not good.
At 5v5 the team has been out shot 358 to 318, real bad

 

[Gabriel426]

Wasn’t Matthews the first overall pick? Isn’t he supposed to be elevating his linemates? Like every other #1 center before him.

Why were Crosby, McDavid and Tavares able to make their linemates so much money?

Hell even a guy like Eric Staal propped up many wingers and got them paid.

Brown, AJ and Kap all pretty much had their best seasons playing with AM.

But I do get your point and I have been saying for a few years. AM and MM don’t need each other to pop up their plays. As both should be able to elevate secondary and supporting players. That’s how a top heavy team can work.

 

[therealkoho]

From everything I've been told he doesn't but he's not doing himself any favours by waiting it out.

Resigning here in Toronto only works if they go really deep, otherwise it just becomes another unwarranted hate fest. Nobody needs that, not Mitch, not the Maple Leafs and certainly not the pregnant Mrs Mitch. I can just imagine somebody who may or may not post here walking up to her in a mall and spewing a bunch of garbage at her. There are people here who often sound completely un balanced and incapable of acting in a civil manner.

 

[LeafEgo]

Has he won a Cup? No.
Has he won trophies? No (sorry Molson Cup does not count)
Has he scored 100 points? No (sorry nobody pays for pace)
Has he scored 40+ goals? No

So what makes him worth $13-$14m ? Nothing, because he is not and if the Leafs cave, they might as well up all their efforts into selling jerseys because there are not winning a Cup. Anybody thinking they will because the Caps eventually did, God bless you and your patience.

If we take the last NHL.com top 10 wingers list and note recent signings:

1. Kuch
2. M Chucky
3. Ranta [this year, 12M]
4. Pasta [two years ago, 11.25M]
5. Panarin
6. JRob
7. Kirill
8. Willy [last year, 11.5M]
9. Reinhart [last year, 8.6M]
10. Marner

It kinda gives you a rough blueprint for Mitch this year.

It's notable that the high-water mark of 12M, signed last week, was also rejected by Colorado.

 

[ITM]

It's all made up like most everything else his distractors post about him.

On distraction: Do you know if it was ever discussed that by not signing the contract before the playoffs it could prove to be a distraction given his impending status?