Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Racer88]

I know they have to deflect and people always be defensive when their work is questioned. but do what the others say "we need to do better, give 110%, no "i" in team" .. dont say shit that makes people mad

100%

 

[Confucius]

He should be embarrassed to compare a 6.9 mil player to a 10.9 mil thought they were very much comparable I’d even say I’d give the nod to the cheaper player at the time

Jesper Bratt last 2 seasons —46 goals 162points , 7.85 per year (8years) (March 2023 signed)
Mitch Marner last 2 seasons —47 goals 165points, ———————————- fill in the blank

 

[Legion34]

If Mitch leaves. What is the 8th year worth?

Generally it’s like a 3rd for a sign and trade right?

What I don’t get is how rantanen is worth stankoven, 1,1,3,3 at the deadline.
How is that one cup run worth all that extra?

I’m hoping if he leaves he will want the 8th year and we can take some of the extra cap back.

Ie if Vegas wants him, we can work out an 8th year to drop the salary and take back like Hague/roy or something.

Hopefully his rights are worth more than a 3rd

 

[hullsy47]

Jesper Bratt last 2 seasons —46 goals 162points , 7.85 per year (8years) (March 2023 signed)
Mitch Marner last 2 seasons —47 goals 165points, ———————————- fill in the blank

10.9

 

[ToneDog]

If Mitch leaves. What is the 8th year worth?

Generally it’s like a 3rd for a sign and trade right?

What I don’t get is how rantanen is worth stankoven, 1,1,3,3 at the deadline.
How is that one cup run worth all that extra?

I’m hoping if he leaves he will want the 8th year and we can take some of the extra cap back.

Ie if Vegas wants him, we can work out an 8th year to drop the salary and take back like Hague/roy or something.

Hopefully his rights are worth more than a 3rd

That is what his NMC cost us. These guys get it all, the AAV, the huge signing bonuses, the NMC, the term they want. You would think the Leafs could leverage some to get a lower AAV. Nope. What makes it more frustrating is they failed to deliver in the playoffs the first time around and so far, it is the same thing the second time around.

 

[Dale Gribble]

That is what his NMC cost us. These guys get it all, the AAV, the huge signing bonuses, the NMC, the term they want. You would think the Leafs could leverage some to get a lower AAV. Nope. What makes it more frustrating is they failed to deliver in the playoffs the first time around and so far, it is the same thing the second time around.

This is the thing that has always gotten to me. You see with other teams how players sign for term and maybe get NMC in only certain years and M-NTC in others, and yet for the most part sign decent deals.

And yet over here, players are happily given full NMC, buy-out proof deals, shorter terms deals, and overpays.
Am I the only one who thinks there is something wrong with that, and it not how does Team Management not see it ?

 

[Dekes For Days]

If Marner signed for 13 million x8 on June 30. What is his %aav in your world?

There is no meaningful difference between June 30th and July 1st. The season is completed and the cap is known and locked in. That's quite different than signing a year before.

No because you are manipulating the numbers pretending Drai signed on an 88.5 cap

The only one manipulating numbers here is you, pretending that Draisaitl signed under a cap that didn't exist. He signed under an 88m cap. Even if you want to account for some natural cap progression, he is still in the 15-16% range.

you actually think that Marner is better than Pasternak and drai?

This isn't about who you think is better. Marner is worth more than Pastrnak was when he signed. It could be argued that Draisaitl was worth more than Marner is, but the difference wouldn't be that big, if any.

recent insider reports have indicated that Marner has completely refused to negotiate throughout the entire time

There was no indication that Marner was unwilling to talk last offseason.

 

[Confucius]

There is no meaningful difference between June 30th and July 1st. The season is completed and the cap is known and locked in. That's quite different than signing a year

June 30th we can give him 8 years, July 1st we can only give 7 years

 

[Dekes For Days]

Marner are Draisaitl are signing under the same cap. They're both pending UFA's on July 1st 2025.

No, they're not. Draisaitl is not a pending UFA. He re-signed last offseason.

Using future cap to manipulate the numbers is misleading.

That's what you're doing. Using a future cap that didn't exist when Draisaitl signed to pretend that Draisaitl signed for less than he did.

Also, in what world is Marner's cap percentage at 0.9-1.9% less than Draisaitl?

This one.

 

[Dekes For Days]

June 30th we can give him 8 years, July 1st we can only give 7 years

There is a slight difference in maximum term potential, but not in cap information, representative sample, or risk.

 

[Legion34]

There is no meaningful difference between June 30th and July 1st. The season is completed and the cap is known and locked in. That's quite different than signing a year before.

The only one manipulating numbers here is you, pretending that Draisaitl signed under a cap that didn't exist. He signed under an 88m cap. Even if you want to account for some natural cap progression, he is still in the 15-16% range.

This isn't about who you think is better. Marner is worth more than Pastrnak was when he signed. It could be argued that Draisaitl was worth more than Marner is, but the difference wouldn't be that big, if any.

There was no indication that Marner was unwilling to talk last offseason.

1.) no it’s not. The NHL had already guaranteed at minimum 92.5 million for 2025-2026. draisitl signed knowing this. Everyone knew this. It was openly discussed on numerous hockey broadcasts/podcasts.
It was negotiated in the Covid cba.

There is absolutely a meaningful difference in signing on June 30 vs July 1. If there wasn’t the 8th year wouldn’t expire on July 1.

If Marner signs on June 30 he signed under the exact same cap as Drai by your measure.

If you are comparing known increases Drai signed under 92.5 and Marner signed under 95.5.

2.) the idea that Marner is worth more than pasta when he signed is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as being similar to draistl.

3.) multiple recent reports have stated that the Marner camp has refused to engage in any negotiations or respond to any numbers since July 1 of last year.

They have not provided a single offer/counter offer. You don’t want to believe it but there are multiple indications he has not.

This does not mean he won’t. He could absolutely sign under an “88.5 cap”.

do you actually not listen or pay attention to anything other than your own thoughts? How can you honestly not know any of this.

It’s kind of astounding you act so certain but don’t follow the basics.

 

[Legion34]

There is a slight difference in maximum term potential, but not in cap information, representative sample, or risk.

That difference is signing in the 2024-2025 NHL season which ran from July 1 2024 to June 30 2025.

Anyone who signs at any time during that season signed in the same season. Both contracts will start the exact same day.

 

[666]

He should be embarrassed to compare a 6.9 mil player to a 10.9 mil thought they were very much comparable I’d even say I’d give the nod to the cheaper player at the time

"Nylander makes more yet during playoffs he gets gets less ice time?"

What playoff games did the Leafs play where Nylander had a higher cap hit than Marner?

This is the stupidity that we have to deal with around here. OK, then. A few months later Nylander NOW makes more than Marner. So now the coaches must have completely reconfigured the team based on Nylander's large increase in salary. Right? Yikes.

In the last day the reality distortion of the haters has come up with Matthews' production in the playoffs is bad because Marner is so bad that Matthews has to work TWICE as hard but still fails AND the only reason Marner gets so much ice time is because of his salary. You guys used to be amusing but it's starting to get disturbing with the lengths that you'll go to to fight your cognitive dissonance.

It amazing how often Marner touches the puck. I wonder why his teammates seem to constantly feed him the puck and rely on him offensively and defensively ALL OF THE TIME. Wait, I can guess. His father is blackmailing his teammates to pass him the puck? I'm sure it's something like that.

 

[ACC1224]

All this Drasaitl stuff is farily off topic but just curious, is the assumption that if he were signing this off season instead of last, that he would take the same number?

 

[arso40]

This is the stupidity that we have to deal with around here. OK, then. A few months later Nylander NOW makes more than Marner. So now the coaches must have completely reconfigured the team based on Nylander's large increase in salary. Right? Yikes.

In the last day the reality distortion of the haters has come up with Matthews' production in the playoffs is bad because Marner is so bad that Matthews has to work TWICE as hard but still fails AND the only reason Marner gets so much ice time is because of his salary. You guys used to be amusing but it's starting to get disturbing with the lengths that you'll go to to fight your cognitive dissonance.

It amazing how often Marner touches the puck. I wonder why his teammates seem to constantly feed him the puck and rely on him offensively and defensively ALL OF THE TIME. Wait, I can guess. His father is blackmailing his teammates to pass him the puck? I'm sure it's something like that.

Marner is good with the pucc and good away from the pucc defensively not the best offensive player without the pucc he plays too high and is too weak to be effective otherwise does that help? You play players to their strengths same reason why they re jig his lines with specific players you get it ?

 

[Legion34]

All this Drasaitl stuff is farily off topic but just curious, is the assumption that if he were signing this off season instead of last, that he would take the same number?

Maybe not. But the point is he was negotiating based on 92.5 at minimum. Not 88.5 as the escalator was already negotiated in rhe CBA. We don’t know what the agent/oilers believed. Allan Walsh still maintains it will end up at 97

Is the idea that he was negotiating on 88.5 is ridiculous. In my opinion we compare Drai to The known escalator at the time (it was 92.5 or 93) we compare Marner to 95.5 if he signed today as he waited it out and took the risk of injury.

But if you want to compare Drai to the year he signed I. 2024-2025, Marner will sign in the same year if he signs in June.

 

[666]

he plays too high and is too weak to be effective otherwise does that help?

Dear jebus. Marner plays high because that's where the coaches tell him to play and the reason is so that he can get back defensively. This is hockey 101 man.

If you want Marner to be a power forward you've got the wrong guy. His comparison is Nylander who while being an exciting puck carrier and goal scorer is a soft, lazy, error prone, perimeter player that's also a defensive black hole.

 

[arso40]

Dear jebus. Marner plays high because that's where the coaches tell him to play and the reason is so that he can get back defensively. This is hockey 101 man.

If you want Marner to be a power forward you've got the wrong guy. His comparison is Nylander who while being an exciting puck carrier and goal scorer is a soft, lazy, error prone, perimeter player that's also a defensive black hole.

Once again that’s your opinion the coach doesn’t want him playing high you think the coach wants him playing high but why would he? Hes playing with an elite player in matthews that’s more than capable of being defensively sound so again your opinions aren’t going to sway me facts will like the fact he disappears when we play for the thing that hoccey players play for…..to win the cup buddy you want to talk about soft actually watch a game Marner is the definition of soft lol

 

[ACC1224]

Dear jebus. Marner plays high because that's where the coaches tell him to play and the reason is so that he can get back defensively. This is hockey 101 man.

If you want Marner to be a power forward you've got the wrong guy. His comparison is Nylander who while being an exciting puck carrier and goal scorer is a soft, lazy, error prone, perimeter player that's also a defensive black hole.

Yeah, that's always seemed like a naive criticism. Players get in a good defensive support position many times during the game, he's certainly not the only one.
(Although he does cheat defensively more than anyone else on the team)

 

[arso40]

Yeah, that's always seemed like a naive criticism. Players get in a good defensive support position many times during the game, he's certainly not the only one.
(Although he does cheat defensively more than anyone else on the team)

Wasn’t that marner trying to cheat on the pk and we got burned ? I missed you guys next time dont feel like you need to disappear from this thread regardless of how he’s playing

 

[Dekes For Days]

The NHL had already guaranteed at minimum 92.5 million for 2025-2026.

Early projections are not guarantees, and even relative to the 92.4m speculation, Draisaitl would still be in the 15-16% range.

There is absolutely a meaningful difference in signing on June 30 vs July 1. If there wasn’t the 8th year wouldn’t expire on July 1.

There is a slight difference in maximum term potential, but not in cap information, representative sample, or risk, like there is signing a year early. Your attempts to equate signing a year early and a day early are pretty disingenuous.

the idea that Marner is worth more than pasta when he signed is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as being similar to draistl.

Neither of those are ridiculous at all.

multiple recent reports have stated that the Marner camp has refused to engage in any negotiations or respond to any numbers since July 1 of last year.

There is no evidence that Marner was unwilling to talk last offseason. In fact, there have been constant "reports" of negotiations and "reports" of numbers throughout. So whatever "reports" you think you're referring to, they contradict each other.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Dear jebus. Marner plays high because that's where the coaches tell him to play and the reason is so that he can get back defensively. This is hockey 101 man.

If you want Marner to be a power forward you've got the wrong guy. His comparison is Nylander who while being an exciting puck carrier and goal scorer is a soft, lazy, error prone, perimeter player that's also a defensive black hole.

Marner leads the team in giveaways (Willy is 6th) and all forwards in giveaways/60 (Willy is 8th), but Nylander is the error prone one?

Not to mention that Nylander is much less of a perimeter player and nowhere near as soft.

You are correct that Marner is not a power forward.

 

[arso40]

Early projections are not guarantees, and even relative to the 92.4m speculation, Draisaitl would still be in the 15-16% range.

There is a slight difference in maximum term potential, but not in cap information, representative sample, or risk, like there is signing a year early. Your attempts to equate signing a year early and a day early are pretty disingenuous.

Neither of those are ridiculous at all.

There is no evidence that Marner was unwilling to talk last offseason. In fact, there have been constant "reports" of negotiations and "reports" of numbers throughout. So whatever "reports" you think you're referring to, they contradict each other.

You might be right but if we’re allowed to lean on history he did the same thing last time he was eligible to sign post elc so I’m sure smart money leans on that side until proven otherwise

 

[TMLAM34]

If the Leafs get knocked out early in the playoffs yet again, really hope this management group explores a sign and trade with Marner to a destination he prefers.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You might be right but if we’re allowed to lean on history he did the same thing last time he was eligible to sign post elc so I’m sure smart money leans on that side until proven otherwise

The last time, he was still developing, and he had had his earning potential neutered by Babcock's stupidity through his first two years. He was finally going to get a chance to play with Tavares, and get the opportunities that he had earned; that players like him usually get. There was a lot more reason to not want to sign early the last time. And that was widely reported at the time, not 8 months later when it's convenient for a media narrative.