Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[LaPlante94]

Draisaitl got 15.9%, and while he's a very good player, especially on the PP, Marner is a better player at 5v5 and and the PK. I don't think Marner is going to get 15.9%, but he will likely justifiably get in the 14-15% range. Many good teams would pay him that.

Yes, we should have pushed harder to sign Marner last offseason if it was possible, instead of playing these stupid games with one of the best players this franchise has ever had.

Yes it has. It just hasn't got us a cup yet. People need to learn the difference.

Nobody needs to go. That's an emotional reaction. Measuring "progress" strictly by round wins is shortsighted. Matthews, Marner, and Nylander all outperformed their contracts by a similar amount, and players don't get extra money now because they were worse when they signed a fair contract last time. That's still looking backwards anyway. This should be about what helps us the most going forward, and that's keeping Marner. And if we did have to get rid of somebody (we don't), that's keeping Marner over Nylander.

That won't necessarily make the depth scoring better and more consistent than what we've had though. It will just make it more expensive. Mid tier UFAs is where money gets thrown away. And even if you did make the depth better, it's still unlikely that the team overall is better, because you're losing a massively impactful piece of the team in the process.

But hey, if we had 3-5m for depth players, we could sign brand new tier of depth that we've never before experienced... Like Mikheyev! Oh wait we already had him... Like Bunting! Oh wait we already had him... Like O'Rielly! Oh wait we already had him... Like Kerfoot! Oh wait we already had him... Like Foligno! Oh wait we already had him... Like Engvall! Oh wait we already had him... Like Domi! Oh wait we already had him... Like Bertuzzi! Oh wait we already had him... Like Laughton! Oh wait we already had him... Etc.

And not only have we already had that calibre of depth, the rising cap is going to give us opportunities to sign these kinds of players in UFA without getting rid of one of our best players.

We have 8 forwards on 2m+ contracts. Of the 14 forwards that Florida used in the playoffs, 8 were on 2m+ contracts.

You're right, he got 15.9% of the current cap and 14.66% of the cap when the contract actually kicks in. Again though, do we really have to act like teams and agents didn't know/have an estimate of what next seasons cap hit would be roughly before this season started when we all knew it'd raise quite a bit with 2 expansion teams and 2 huge US TV deals since the cap stopped going up from covid? I know you'll say it doesn't matter because contracts get signed for the current cap which just keeps proving our point our players are out for money and nothing else waiting for the cap to rise officially to sign their new deals.

No games are being played with Marner. He was asked if he wanted to waive his NMC when we could've got a damn good player in return for him since he won't sign a new deal. Only 1 person playing games here and it's the same player/agent who did the same crap during his last contract negotiation.

1st round exits non stop is not getting closer to the cup, especially when Dubas and now Tre have given up a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks and do a lot of cap gymnastics to try and help them get closer. We're near the end of this cores glory years and them just making the playoffs is considered getting closer to the cup while making zero progress in the actual playoffs? These excuses need to be stopped for this core. They got enough participation ribbons.

An emotional reaction is saying blow the core up after 2-3 years of round 1 exits. 8 years of the same stuff is more than enough time for fans to see this isn't working and have nothing to look forward to. This is the NHL. Winning rounds in the playoffs is the main goal and what you have to do to win a cup. The fact you try and make excuses and say that's shortsighted when fans are expecting more playoff success from this core is ironic. I'd be fine with keeping Marner over Nylander. 1 has to go and idc who it is as long as it's not Matthews. Nylander has been the only one to sign for 8 years and has become a 40 goal scorer and 90 point guy making the least amount of the top 3 though.

Paying proven and consistent 40-50 point scorers does help the depth scoring be more consistent. Instead we just hope and pray that we can sign someone to a 1 or 2 year deal at league min and hope they have a miracle season and then complain about depth scoring when they don't. Losing pieces of this core doesn't impact our team like you say. Every player in this core has missed time and our team has looked fine with 1 of them out of the lineup almost every time and that's replacing them with an AHL player who have been sitting in the press box all year. Yes I know their record without Marner is the closest to .500 but 7 of those 17 losses came during that stretch where the team gave up on Babcock that led to his firing. The team plays a simpler game and is less predictable when we lose one of these guys and aren't forcing the puck to these guys.

That list is pretty funny. Bunting the only 1 who we can say was 1 of the few league min guys who had his miracle seasons getting a chance to play with Matthews before falling off. Mikheyev, Engvall, Kerfoot and Foligno are interesting ones since I don't remember these guys being known for their offence so idk why we'd think they'd help the depth scoring. Foligno especially. Got 11 games total out of him and 0 goals and 5 assists for a 1st round pick I believe. Bertuzzi was only her for 1 season and had a pretty good season after a slow start. O'Rielly was great in his 24 total games we had him for. Laughton has been here a week. Domi has been a great playmaker here but needs to start scoring more.

The cap rising doesn't free up much cap when we're just paying the same guys who took up all our cap even more money, and then also having to pay other guys who were on team friendly deals after trades or on ELCs. Knies, McCabe and Woll are the 3 that come to mind here. We have 7 forwards making 2+mil towards our cap. 4 of them are the core who are making 11+. Did Florida also have 4 of their 8 making 11 mil+? Barkov and Tkachuk are the highest paid and they made 19.5 combined.

 

[MarMarSab3]

Mitch Marner is as good as gone and the team will be better for it.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

I think Marner had 3 points last playoff? I mainly just remember Nylander carrying the team and Leafs coming back from 3-1 down to get to a game 7 without Matthews.

But yeah, Marner is a perimeter player. Going to the areas like Bennett, Thachuk really isn't his game. Matthews is also a perimeter player, so they won't work well in a tight checking game. In a pond hockey game against bad teams though, that line is lots of fun.

sorry i thought you meant like marner without matthews playing in general, not on the same line

my problem with marner is irrespective of matthews being good or not, in fact it has nothing to do with matthews. Marner isn't just a perimeter player, he is worse than that. A perimeter plays spend most of their time at the boards on the walls, or curling back from those boards to pass it back. Nylander and Matthew are more or les perimeter players, but a guy like Keller is someone who strikes me as perimeter. Insanely dangerous off the rush, and in the zone he is sticking to the side walls trying to find cross seams through players. Marner doesn't even do that, he sticks near the blueline where he will be guarded and checked much less, at the expense of his offensive input, creativity, and creation. Marner isn't bouchard, makar, or quinn hughes. He can't make plays from there just like how nylander or matthews can't make it from there.

This habit of marner's is an aqcuired one, he wasn't like this until like 2-3 years ago, he spent way less time at the blueline back then vs now.

Just look at the 4Nations finals game, his first assist came on attacking the middle of the ice on a rush and passing it off with a nice pass. His second assists on the tourney winning goal was from the boards to the slot. I don't expect marner to be a Tkachuk or Bennett or even a Point because he's just not wired like that. But if marner plays like the 4nations final game more often, he will have success than whatever we've seen so far. If not he can go anywhere and it'll be more of the same from him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I do watch the games. Take him out of the lineup and where would this team be?

No way to know obviously but depending on who we traded him for, perhaps we would have won a cup by now.

When Mathews was out he was the one driving this team.

Against Boston, he drove us right out of the playoffs in round 1. Three points in 7 games for 11 million, holy smokes what a ripoff that was. Might have even been worse than the last playoff series he played, I don't know though, his play was pretty pukeworthy against Florida. Absolute garbage the last 2 series he played, not good.

He’s every bit the player Keon was, maybe a bit more flamboyant but not much. Where do you find a guy today the plays PP, PK and gets close to a hundred points.

A better question - how hard can it be to improve on a guy who turns into a ~40 point forward after 86 games?

When Mathews was out the team performed very well. No dog in Austin-nothing. In four nations without Mitch where would Canada be? Definitely not in the finals. Big game and he played great. Who lost there guy-again, in the slot for the game winning goal? Mathews. You guys make him out to be some untouchable. Time to find him a permanent home to some team in Southern California and get some dogs on this team.

On a side note. How come a huge chunk of my original post was removed?

Matthews has also been a playoff disappointment, not as disappointing as Marner though. But whatever, there's another thread for Hart boy.

 

[Antropovsky]

Too many variables for those stats convince me of anything and pretty much the whole team has been bad in the playoffs. JT and Marner might not be an ideal fit but stylistically seems better to me than JT with Nylander.

There are many variables, but its been noticeable when they are together in playoffs. Both of them dont have rhe speed to carry the puck through the neutral zone without being caught by defenders. They are among the slower players in the league (proven by NHL edge stats). Shockingly, 35 year old Tavares has been faster in the NHL speed categories this year than 27 year old Marner.

 

[Bloomberg]

sorry i thought you meant like marner without matthews playing in general, not on the same line

my problem with marner is irrespective of matthews being good or not, in fact it has nothing to do with matthews. Marner isn't just a perimeter player, he is worse than that. A perimeter plays spend most of their time at the boards on the walls, or curling back from those boards to pass it back. Nylander and Matthew are more or les perimeter players, but a guy like Keller is someone who strikes me as perimeter. Insanely dangerous off the rush, and in the zone he is sticking to the side walls trying to find cross seams through players. Marner doesn't even do that, he sticks near the blueline where he will be guarded and checked much less, at the expense of his offensive input, creativity, and creation. Marner isn't bouchard, makar, or quinn hughes. He can't make plays from there just like how nylander or matthews can't make it from there.

This habit of marner's is an aqcuired one, he wasn't like this until like 2-3 years ago, he spent way less time at the blueline back then vs now.

Just look at the 4Nations finals game, his first assist came on attacking the middle of the ice on a rush and passing it off with a nice pass. His second assists on the tourney winning goal was from the boards to the slot. I don't expect marner to be a Tkachuk or Bennett or even a Point because he's just not wired like that. But if marner plays like the 4nations final game more often, he will have success than whatever we've seen so far. If not he can go anywhere and it'll be more of the same from him.

I agree that Marner is much more effective and dangerous when he is not at the blueline as much.

I think it's more to do with the system rather then the way Marner wants to play? Ideally, he doesn't play point on the PP, but Rielly isn't effective there and we don't have a defencemen that has a dangerous point shot. This Leafs team is slow and our defence has not been great this year, so he needs to be more defensive to cover rushes going the other way. Especially given, the lack of energy from Matthews this year, you can't expect Matthews to track back. Tavares is also quite slow, so Marner needs to be cover. But with Laughton, perhaps Marner can take more risks.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

I agree that Marner is much more effective and dangerous when he is not at the blueline as much.

I think it's more to do with the system rather then the way Marner wants to play? Ideally, he doesn't play point on the PP, but Rielly isn't effective there and we don't have a defencemen that has a dangerous point shot. This Leafs team is slow and our defence has not been great this year, so he needs to be more defensive to cover rushes going the other way. Especially given, the lack of energy from Matthews this year, you can't expect Matthews to track back. Tavares is also quite slow, so Marner needs to be cover. But with Laughton, perhaps Marner can take more risks.

maybe it is the system, but with it being through two different coaches i don't really know. It wasn't like this the first 2 years through keefe, I really started noticing it around 2022-2023 and it got worse the year after. This year has been more of the same where even at EVS he spends so much time at the blueline. We have decent defensive players (McCabe, Tanev, Carlo, OEL) he doesn't need to continue going back there. I feel like this playstyle developing because it is doing something good for the team is not true. We can't create plays down low, and anytime rebounds come out we are out numbered 2 to 3 aroud the net. I believe it's something he has brought into his game over the course of the past 3 years.

i don't mind trying marner with laughton, give him like mcmann or jarnkrok and make a good shutdown 2A/2B line

people are always bringing up nylander as the kessel due to style, but i think marner could do a better job being that kessel who tries to take advantage of lower competition. He just needs to get over not wanting to get hit or make the greasy plays to be able to play in that role.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Absolutely fascinating that the guy goes from 16% to 4% and not once did you lay ANY of the blame on Matthews himself.
You can't seriously believe that Matthews is a major contributor to Marner's success but is irrelevant when it is lacking. It's all Marner's fault is so bizarre.
I engaged with you again to see if you could critically think. That won't happen again.

I didn't actually "lay ANY of the blame" on either - I asked a question.

In response you ignored quality of shots and focused on number, and introduced various factors which apply to everyone (which the huge drop in shooting % does not). You also accused me of being dishonest.

I don't, despite your odd echo, think that either one's effectiveness or lack thereof is independent of the other, or any linemate.

The most noticeable differences in a player's performance in the playoffs is Marner's playing less effectively, and Matthews' lower shooting %. Critical thinking suggests there may be a correlation, so I asked.

If you don't want to have a reasoned discussion, that is fine.

 

[notDatsyuk]

This has got to be dumbest answer ever. His salary? Nylander makes more yet during the playoffs he gets less ice time 5v5 and doesn't PK at all. Why doesn't $11.5M Nylander play against the top lines? Why do the coaches value Marner more than Nylander when Nylander makes more money? They both play the same position. I could go on and on but it's a waste of time to talk playoffs with you when you're the ONLY person who thinks Marner sucks even in the regular season.

Actually, prior to last year Nylander made a lot less than Marner, and during last year's playoffs Nylander actually led all forwards in even strength ice time per game.

But I do agree that that poster goes overboard in his criticism of Marner.

 

[arso40]

Actually, prior to last year Nylander made a lot less than Marner, and during last year's playoffs Nylander actually led all forwards in even strength ice time per game.

But I do agree that that poster goes overboard in his criticism of Marner.

When did Willy’s contract kicc in I thought it started this year so why are we talkin about last year again ?

 

[notDatsyuk]

When did Willy’s contract kicc in I thought it started this year so why are we talkin about last year ahain ?

True - he had signed the extension, but it hadn't kicked in yet. Makes the other poster's statement even less accurate.

 

[arso40]

True - he had signed the extension, but it hadn't kicked in yet. Makes the other poster's statement even less accurate.

He should be embarrassed to compare a 6.9 mil player to a 10.9 mil thought they were very much comparable I’d even say I’d give the nod to the cheaper player at the time

 

[thewave]

There are many variables, but its been noticeable when they are together in playoffs. Both of them dont have rhe speed to carry the puck through the neutral zone without being caught by defenders. They are among the slower players in the league (proven by NHL edge stats). Shockingly, 35 year old Tavares has been faster in the NHL speed categories this year than 27 year old Marner.

Marner is a dead end. A non starter. He is a player you walk from because of the speed issues etc. if they do not they will regret it

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

View attachment 993590

How does a question about Matthews scoring slump become an "us vs the world" answer.

Of course everyone expects you to get points every night. Wtf are they paying you for. Nobody gives a crap about how good your defense is when you can't score a goal.

This unaccountable turd has been playing like crap for weeks.

Think he'd ever own up to it though. Not a chance. He'd rather blame the fans for expecting more from the eight figured salaried players who can't put the puck in the net.

There's no reason for the fans to not have expectations.

And those expectations clearly aren't being met. Simply put the fans aren't getting what they paid for. But rather than man up and admit his shortcomings Marner prefers to blame the fans for expecting too much.

I just have to wonder if they ever forgot the tomatos on his burger at McDonald's if Marner would complain or just accept the fact his expectations were too high.

 

[Antropovsky]

maybe it is the system, but with it being through two different coaches i don't really know. It wasn't like this the first 2 years through keefe, I really started noticing it around 2022-2023 and it got worse the year after. This year has been more of the same where even at EVS he spends so much time at the blueline. We have decent defensive players (McCabe, Tanev, Carlo, OEL) he doesn't need to continue going back there. I feel like this playstyle developing because it is doing something good for the team is not true. We can't create plays down low, and anytime rebounds come out we are out numbered 2 to 3 aroud the net. I believe it's something he has brought into his game over the course of the past 3 years.

i don't mind trying marner with laughton, give him like mcmann or jarnkrok and make a good shutdown 2A/2B line

people are always bringing up nylander as the kessel due to style, but i think marner could do a better job being that kessel who tries to take advantage of lower competition. He just needs to get over not wanting to get hit or make the greasy plays to be able to play in that role.

It's not the system... Berube keeps telling the media they are being too cute, too perimeter, not going to the net. He literally said he wants 2 to the net at all times...and that certainly isn't happening.

What id give to see Tortorella coach this core... they'd be rotating in and out of the press box and being thrown under the bus to the media.

 

[Antropovsky]

How does a question about Matthews scoring slump become an "us vs the world" answer.

Of course everyone expects you to get points every night. Wtf are they paying you for. Nobody gives a crap about how good your defense is when you can't score a goal.

This unaccountable turd has been playing like crap for weeks.

Think he'd ever own up to it though. Not a chance. He'd rather blame the fans for expecting more from the eight figured salaried players who can't put the puck in the net.

There's no reason for the fans to not have expectations.

And those expectations clearly aren't being met. Simply put the fans aren't getting what they paid for. But rather than man up and admit his shortcomings Marner prefers to blame the fans for expecting too much.

I just have to wonder if they ever forgot the tomatos on his burger at McDonald's if Marner would complain or just accept the fact his expectations were too high.

And there he goes again, creating more drama about the meanies! and he wears an A? The team needs to settle down and get back on track, and instead, he’s creating more distractions and picking fights with the media again. He just won't give it up.

AND as usual he turns every question about Matthews into an "us" respons. trying to align himself with Matthews achievements while also pulling Matthews into the criticism he receives. He doesn’t do this with any other player.

Last year, when Matthews hit 60 goals, Marner was asked about the milestone, and despite not assisting on the goal, he made it about himself, saying he was worried he’d get in trouble for passing up so many shots to feed Matthews.

When a reporter asked about Matthews’ growth as a leader on his path to becoming captain, Marner once again made it about him and Matthews, shifting the focus to how "they" learned from Tavares instead of simply acknowledging Matthews individual progress like he was asked.

He’s constantly trying to push the idea that he and Matthews are equals.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

He’s constantly trying to push the idea that he and Matthews are equals.

I think he honestly believes he's a better player than Matthews and is extremely jealous of the Captain.

Everything that comes out of his mouth is an attempt to deflect blame onto someone else. Either that or to take credit away from those deserving of it. Marner is like my ex-wife always having to be the centre of attention and make everything about him.

I'm surprised he hasn't asked them to change the name of the team to the Toronto Marnerites.

 

[mikeyz]

Who are you replying to here?! I can’t see it

Antropovsky.

Maybe you put him on “ignore”.

 

[centipede2233]

I think he honestly believes he's a better player than Matthews and is extremely jealous of the Captain.

Everything that comes out of his mouth is an attempt to deflect blame onto someone else. Either that or to take credit away from those deserving of it. Marner is like my ex-wife always having to be the centre of attention and make everything about him.

I'm surprised he hasn't asked them to change the name of the team to the Toronto Marnerites.

Unfortunately, it comes down to bad parenting. Marner doesn’t know what accountability is.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Unfortunately, it comes down to bad parenting. Marner doesn’t know what accountability is.

Turditis runs in the family.

 

[JL17]

Marner played well in the 4 nations when it matters. I would like to see him play without Matthews in the playoffs. They are both perimeter players that doesn't work well on the same line during a tight checking playoff game. Marner with Laughton or Marner with Tavares should be better.

Marner played ok at the 4 Nations because he was a secondary player. He wasn’t asked to lead the team. There’s half a dozen guys there that allowed him to feel less pressure than trying to lead this team. Let’s not forget his body of work there showed some of his playoff habits. He got put in a situation to build confidence.