Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[thewave]

This sounds like they haven't negotiated at all. What a saga.

If this is accurate the Leafs as a team are hopeless

 

[francis246]

Like I said, Marner's camp does not appear to be a rational business partner and you can't really do business in a pure dollars and cents kind of way when they simultaneously want many things.

There's an emotional component where he feels aggrieved by a part of the Toronto market, but the market is also not the Toronto Maple Leafs organization. The team has supported him for the past decade. You might want to stick it to Toronto, but the Leafs have treated you well. So who are you trying to hurt?

Asking Marner to waive might be deeply insulting or shocking, but you have reportedly not provided concrete signals as to what you want to do, so due diligence needs to be pursued.

Finally, what is the number that you want? More than Auston? Match the highest dollar amount on the open market? Makes me think there isn't a real number here, but something pegged to feelings.

But that doesn't change the fact that the market has valued Auston more over the past decade than you and given him the golden child treatment and not you. That can't be fixed and I don't think Leafs Nation is sorry. Holding the team hostage makes the market dislike you more.

If Marner wants to leave, just buzz off when time comes and don't make any qualifications about how you love Toronto.

I’m sorry I have to disagree with holding the team hostage. Any time a team gives out an NMC you run the risk of this happening. Marner hasn’t lied like JT. Marner at the beginning of the season came out and said his focus is on winning here, he’s not gonna negotiate or talk about contract during the season. He hasn’t lied. He’s just standing firm on what he said he was gonna do to start the season.

As for the emotional piece, I’ve always maintained from day 1. As an organization you have to find away to make all your stars feel appreciated and mend those relationships before they get out of hand. This organization elevated Matthews way too high above the other two guys. No other dynasty has handled their players like that. It’s usually they get treated the same or damn near close to it. If you want to elevate Matthews that’s fine but get rid of the guy who’s not vibing with that from earlier on. They should have moved on from Marner a long time ago, cause there is clearly resentment.

 

[Azail]

If he wants $15 million you gladly let him eff off to Chicago. You could have 3 forwards of middle six quality there. He's not Connor McDavid.

I don't think there is a price out there based on what CJ said. I certainly don't want him for $15mil lol.

 

[thusk]

I do love how among the many posters who didn’t want the leafs to negotiate with Marner till after the playoffs there a few of them who are now mad Marner won’t negotiate till after the season

Clearly the best message i read in this topic

 

[Azail]

If this is accurate the Leafs as a team are hopeless

Yep, sure seems like it is the Leafs that are begging for Marner's services, not the other way around haha.

 

[cyris]

lol so true, no matter what he does or doesn’t do they will find a way to hate him for it

Yep. Some people just want a reason to be upset.
Like 1 particular poster who was complaining that Marner was getting too many empty net points then rushed to the thread to complain when he missed a shot on the empty net.

 

[Confucius]

There’s no way the Leafs don’t re-sign him, unless Mitch decides to walk. They have essentially made their bed by trading all their picks and prospects for immediate help.

Typically you could use those for trades to acquire good pieces while perhaps taking a bit of salary back. They don’t have that option anymore. Their only option is pay Mitch and pray.

So 20% of the cap for 8 years with a NMC… well you said there was no way…

 

[Stephen]

I’m sorry I have to disagree with holding the team hostage. Any time a team gives out an NMC you run the risk of this happening. Marner hasn’t lied like JT. Marner at the beginning of the season came out and said his focus is on winning here, he’s not gonna negotiate or talk about contract during the season. He hasn’t lied. He’s just standing firm on what he said he was gonna do to start the season.

As for the emotional piece, I’ve always maintained from day 1. As an organization you have to find away to make all your stars feel appreciated and mend those relationships before they get out of hand. This organization elevated Matthews way too high above the other two guys. No other dynasty has handled their players like that. It’s usually they get treated the same or damn near close to it. If you want to elevate Matthews that’s fine but get rid of the guy who’s not vibing with that from earlier on. They should have moved on from Marner a long time ago, cause there is clearly resentment.

Matthews may be somewhat undeserving of the golden child treatment he's received over the years. He's not really a consistent Top 5 player in the game but they treated him like a Top 2 lock behind McDavid, and clearly not a captain, so why was he given the damn thing, etc. But I think Marner and his group have always been a little touchy that's ended up hurting him in the market.

I think we are past due where we can break it all up at the end of the year and not feel too badly about it. The whole mix is so stale.

 

[LaPlante94]

1. That's not always true, and it's certainly not true for a prime aged franchise player in a rapidly rising cap environment.
2. Marner is not likely to be overpaid, and is more likely to outperform the contract he gets than whatever alternatives we'd use that money on.

Marner got 10.9m because he was one of the best young players in cap era history, not because of any FA. The 10th highest value post-ELC forward contract with the 6th best pre-signing period. And he's grown into one of the best players in the league. You still don't realize how rare a player like him is.

Contracts aren't just a result of peak single season raw point production, and Marner is closer to Mackinnon than you realize (and closer especially to Mackinnon when he signed), but he's also not going to get more than MacKinnon. Mackinnon's contract this offseason would be 14.6m. When the cap rises, contracts rise with it. And similarly, in a few years, players worse than Marner will be signing for more than Marner.

There's more than that to a team, but yes, we would likely be better than when we were a bottom feeder. Personally, I'm not okay with just being better than a bottom feeder.

It means that we can pretend to have better depth, while we really just overpay the same quality depth we've had, and get worse overall. If we're lucky, maybe we'll only create one long term anchor. Teams don't win by spending a bunch on depth. They win by finding efficiencies in their depth. Our cheaper depth this year has been better than our more expensive depth.

If contracts aren't a result of peak single season raw point production then why did he get 10.9 mil after 2 60 point seasons and 1 90 point season in the final year of the ELC? Believe the average for those 3 seasons was around 75ish points. How come other 75 point players don't get those kind of contracts to this day? Guy gets paid better than players who put up 110+ points and we try and say the cap rising is why he will again? Are we really supposed to believe these players and their agents who signed new contracts the last 2 years didn't know the cap would rise? Those players still signed for 8 years knowing that.

Got one of the best Centers in the league and possibly a top 5 player in the league in Matthews and Nylander who has become one of the better scorers in the league. Tavares too who would probably be a 1C on a lot of teams as our 2C. Losing Marner doesn't make us just better than a bottom feeder and idk how you or anyone could actually believe this. Actually one of the worst takes I've seen about about losing Marner. So bad that I almost want to believe you're on this guys payroll somehow.

Teams don't win by paying their depth guys league min or 2 mil and under. There's a reason teams don't care about paying some depth guys more than they should because they can put up 40-50 points playing 3rd line minutes and getting very few PP minutes. Teams win by not paying 4 players 11+ million each which makes it easier to find efficiencies in their depth because they can pay 3rd liners anywhere from 2-5 million and put rookies in the top 6 on ELC because your star players should be able to carry their lines.

 

[Confucius]

Rantanen has had 55 and 42 goal seasons broken 100 points twice and won a Cup. Saying Marner is his equivalent is being very generous to Mitch

 

[GoonieFace]

So 20% of the cap for 8 years with a NMC… well you said there was no way…

The Leafs don’t have the balls to walk away. Marner knows this and will milk them for every last penny, and they will pay it

 

[francis246]

Matthews may be somewhat undeserving of the golden child treatment he's received over the years. He's not really a consistent Top 5 player in the game but they treated him like a Top 2 lock behind McDavid, and clearly not a captain, so why was he given the damn thing, etc. But I think Marner and his group have always been a little touchy that's ended up hurting him in the market.

I think we are past due where we can break it all up at the end of the year and not feel too badly about it. The whole mix is so stale.

Yup, and I think that’s the Marner camps whole position. Matthews and I are in the same tier of player. It may not be McDavid tier but I’m on par with Matthews. Whether that’s true or not is another debate, but that’s how he feels.

 

[Confucius]

The Leafs don’t have the balls to walk away. Marner knows this and will milk them for every last penny, and they will pay it

So he may as well go for the 20% and we’ll give it to him, correct?

 

[jaric1862]

Marner signs just before a July 1st, $14M x 8 years. Book it.

 

[Confucius]

Marner signs just before a July 1st, $14M x 8 years. Book it.

In Pittsburgh maybe…

 

[francis246]

Rantanen has had 55 and 42 goal seasons broken 100 points twice and won a Cup. Saying Marner is his equivalent is being very generous to Mitch

Tbf Marner sacrificed his 100 point season to get ready for Tampa Bay in 2023. He put the team over getting his 100 points. He agreed to be scratched when he was 1 point away from 100 in game 82. It sucks fans kinda throw that in his face now. Especially When Matthews chased 70 instead of putting the team first, Nylander chased 100 and got hurt.

 

[Confucius]

Tbf Marner sacrificed his 100 point season to get ready for Tampa Bay in 2023. He put the team over getting his 100 points. He agreed to be scratched when he was 1 point away from 100 in game 82. It sucks fans kinda throw that in his face now. Especially When Matthews chased 70 instead of putting the team first, Nylander chased 100 and got hurt.

Even if we are generous and say the point totals are the same. Rantanen is a much better goal scorer

 

[GoonieFace]

So he may as well go for the 20% and we’ll give it to him, correct?

Let’s not be ridiculous. But I can see him asking for more than Matthews, around $13.8-$14 mil/per.

This is such a poorly run organization. They asked him to waive, knowing full well he wouldn’t. That’s them trying to be tough.

They already overpaid Willy, so Mitch is next in line for an overpay.

 

[jaric1862]

If Marner walks, not trading Knies for a signed Ratanen will go down as a massive organizational blunder.

 

[Confucius]

Let’s not be ridiculous. But I can see him asking for more than Matthews, around $13.8-$14 mil/per.

This is such a poorly run organization. They asked him to waive, knowing full well he wouldn’t. That’s them trying to be tough.

They already overpaid Willy, so Mitch is next in line for an overpay.

William is looking like a heck of a good deal at 11.5, not too many leafs have had back to back to back 40 goal seasons

 

[Legion34]

If contracts aren't a result of peak single season raw point production then why did he get 10.9 mil after 2 60 point seasons and 1 90 point season in the final year of the ELC? Believe the average for those 3 seasons was around 75ish points. How come other 75 point players don't get those kind of contracts to this day? Guy gets paid better than players who put up 110+ points and we try and say the cap rising is why he will again? Are we really supposed to believe these players and their agents who signed new contracts the last 2 years didn't know the cap would rise? Those players still signed for 8 years knowing that.

Got one of the best Centers in the league and possibly a top 5 player in the league in Matthews and Nylander who has become one of the better scorers in the league. Tavares too who would probably be a 1C on a lot of teams as our 2C. Losing Marner doesn't make us just better than a bottom feeder and idk how you or anyone could actually believe this. Actually one of the worst takes I've seen about about losing Marner. So bad that I almost want to believe you're on this guys payroll somehow.

Teams don't win by paying their depth guys league min or 2 mil and under. There's a reason teams don't care about paying some depth guys more than they should because they can put up 40-50 points playing 3rd line minutes and getting very few PP minutes. Teams win by not paying 4 players 11+ million each which makes it easier to find efficiencies in their depth because they can pay 3rd liners anywhere from 2-5 million and put rookies in the top 6 on ELC because your star players should be able to carry their lines.

He’s going to tell you he did a super secret study with his old old computer showing that GMs use his stats proving Marner was the best

 

[Legion34]

Yup, and I think that’s the Marner camps whole position. Matthews and I are in the same tier of player. It may not be McDavid tier but I’m on par with Matthews. Whether that’s true or not is another debate, but that’s how he feels.

Matthews at age 27 is 7th all time in goals.
He is a 2 time 60’goal scorer, 3 time rocket winner, and a hart and person winner.

They aren’t the same. Marner has zero argument.

He’s better than Willy but they are in a class.

Matthews is injured. When healthy he is minimum top 3. Mack has really come on.

 

[GoonieFace]

Tbf Marner sacrificed his 100 point season to get ready for Tampa Bay in 2023. He put the team over getting his 100 points. He agreed to be scratched when he was 1 point away from 100 in game 82. It sucks fans kinda throw that in his face now. Especially When Matthews chased 70 instead of putting the team first, Nylander chased 100 and got hurt.

Nylander never misses games ( 1 game in 3 years) he didn’t get hurt trying to get 100 points, it was just unfortunate.

Matthews was trying to get 70 for sure, which is a much bigger milestone than 100 points. Can’t really blame him, the end result sucked

William is looking like a heck of a good deal at 11.5, not too many leafs have had back to back to back 40 goal seasons

I like Willy, but he is probably worth $10 max. Goal scoring should get paid a premium. Perhaps it was good faith for only make 6.9 the previous 6 years.

 

[Confucius]

Nylander never misses games ( 1 game in 3 years) he didn’t get hurt trying to get 100 points, it was just unfortunate.

Matthews was trying to get 70 for sure, which is a much bigger milestone than 100 points. Can’t really blame him, the end result sucked


I like Willy, but he is probably worth $10 max. Goal scoring should get paid a premium. Perhaps it was good faith for only make 6.9 the previous 6 years.

That is something I have stated in the past. At the time nobody agreed. That’s exactly the reputation I’d try to develop as a GM. If you were underpaid I’ll remember and make it up to you.

 

[al secord]

If Treliving let's one of our best talents in decades leave for nothing, it's a huge blunder, not a positive.