Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Nineteen67]

What this tells us is the Leafs and management is not necessarily tied 100% to Marner with any guarantee he is returning.

If you ask a player to waive your NMC it means they liked the return they were getting.

It’s quite possible Carolina asked for Knies and the Leafs said we’ll try to get you Marner and that could be as far as it went.

 

[leafsfan5]

I have no doubt he wants to stay a leaf, I also have no doubt he wants to leverage the UFA market to bleed us dry

He'll meet with other teams and come back to Toronto and say "Chicago was offering 14 x 7, give me 13.5 x 7 and I'll stay" or something like that

 

[leafsfan5]

So the mediots proclaim they heard this and that from their so called sources and Fans eat it up as its the truth.

What has Tre or Marner's camp publicly said? Marner camp has always said he wants to remain a leaf and Tre has always said he would love to keep Marner and you just dont let elite players like that go.

But of course the trade deadline ends and the TO mediots come out to cause a stir. We have no idea what Tre and Marner have talked about.

Now its a wait and see ....enjoy the season and the playoffs and hopefully we can have some success like winning the cup.

I mean you can put your head in the sand like this or you can acknowledge certain members in the media are credible. Particularly CJ and Mirtle, who have both said the Marner camp isn't negotiating

There is clearly something off if the Leafs were willing to deal Marner for Rantanen

 

[francis246]

I’m taking the organization at their word, and also Tre’s comments all year. Add in several insiders, who’ve said the Leafs have made big offers, and I’m leaving this current mess at the feet of Marner’s team. Don’t want to be asked to waive? Accept the sweetheart deals we’ve already put on the table. Say you want to stay here, sign a freaking contract right now? The money is good, the team is good, the family is here, the endorsements are a total bonus. So sign, or accept this uncomfortable situation, because everyday he doesn’t now, he turns this fan base against him as it sinks in he might leave for nothing, or he wants to take us to the cleaners. Nylander is over paid, ditto big sexy, so the internal cap structure guarantees Mitch gets a league wide friendly payday. There is a simple solution, and I’m convinced the Leafs aren’t the one’s wanting to wait until after the playoffs, they’ve already tried to sign him for big bucks. This whole negotiation is turning into a shit show, nice work Ferris.

If I’m Marner, I’m on the phone with Ferris telling him to sign whatever deal is available for me to stay. Like you said, if he truly wants to be here that’s the only logical response. If he doesn’t do that, then I don’t feel sorry for the guy and it’s gonna end up like when JT left the island and he’ll only have himself to blame. Even as a fan of his game and as much as I want him to stay a leaf, I can’t defend his negotiation tactics.

At some point you have to have balls and think for yourself, you don’t have to go step for step with your agents plan if you truly want something else.

 

[The Shadow]

It seems that Marner does quite well with commercials and getting deal in that sense. Not sure what that would look like in other markets but he’s a big fish in a big pond here. Nylander and Matthews have also done very well in this way

 

[notbias]

What this tells us is the Leafs and management is not necessarily tied 100% to Marner with any guarantee he is returning.

If you ask a player to waive your NMC it means they liked the return they were getting.

The Leafs' top priority was signing Marner, that is what was said, they don't have certainty because he doesn't want to discuss contracts in season, so this led to them asking.

A lot of wishing and hoping in this thread.

 

[GoonieFace]

There’s no way the Leafs don’t re-sign him, unless Mitch decides to walk. They have essentially made their bed by trading all their picks and prospects for immediate help.

Typically you could use those for trades to acquire good pieces while perhaps taking a bit of salary back. They don’t have that option anymore. Their only option is pay Mitch and pray.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Mitch Marner: the man, the myth, the legend... the GOD.

It looks like Mitch Marner likes the idea of Mitch Marner remaining with the Leafs. So Mitch Marner can add to the legend of Mitch Marner the greatest hockey player ever. All while Mitch Marner milks said team for every last penny Mitch Marner can get.

Mitch Marner.

Poor Mitch has it so hard. Always being held back by management, teammates, and other external factors beyond his control. Surely the whole world must know by now it's never his fault when they lose.

He does point it out after every bad game after all.

His defenders advocate that he has offensive flair. But that hasn't translated into team success. They'd rather cheer for the player to get points than the team win games I guess.

Seems a lot of people have become fans of the player instead of the team he plays on.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Personally, I think the team holds all the cards. They have other star forwards to build around and they could easily spend that $104M on other pieces. What leverage does Marner even have? At $13M, it's either him or two other very decent players. Again, I'm a fan and yet I would be completely fine if they just let him walk for nothing at all.

 

[Legion34]

They didn't differentiate when setting various benchmarks for ELC performance bonuses, because there was no reason to. They weren't trying to evaluate worth. They were trying to be as inclusive as possible of different skillsets to give ELC players that establish themselves a compensation boost. That does not equate to it not being important when establishing worth in contract negotiations. You're taking massive logical leaps here, in pursuit of a conclusion you've already decided.

You keep dodging all of the corresponding things that would need to be true for you to attempt to claim this as evidence, because you know they are unjustifiable and expose the logical flaw in your argument.

No, they equate primary assists and goals. I don't know why I have to keep reminding you what discussion we're actually having. You keep making these goals vs. total assist comparisons and statements that have no relevance in the first place.

That's actually what you're doing here. I've just followed the evidence of how GMs have actually operated through cap era contract history.

The equivalent impact of goals and primary assists is widely recognised, and it's repeatedly acknowledged in contracts.

It certainly is. Heck, I've even said we should just agree to disagree and move on. You can and will believe what you want to believe. But you won't rest until everybody is wrong with you.

You have provided ZERO evidence of how GMs have operated. Ever. You have provided ZERO evidence of any one ever in any contract referencing primary assists or a correlation.

You just keep repeating a fantasy.

Again. Show ONE peice of evidence that they value primary assists at the level of goals. At all.

You just keep saying “GMs operate like this” without evidence.

There is nothing to dodge. They chose to reward goals in contracts more than assists. They chose NOT to use your made up category of primary points.

why would GMs want to give money for less valuable things? Makes no sense

 

[Smif]

Mitch Marner: the man, the myth, the legend... the GOD.

It looks like Mitch Marner likes the idea of Mitch Marner remaining with the Leafs. So Mitch Marner can add to the legend of Mitch Marner the greatest hockey player ever. All while Mitch Marner milks said team for every last penny Mitch Marner can get.

Mitch Marner.

Poor Mitch has it so hard. Always being held back by management, teammates, and other external factors beyond his control. Surely the whole world must know by now it's never his fault when they lose.

He does point it out after every bad game after all.

His defenders advocate that he has offensive flair. But that hasn't translated into team success. They'd rather cheer for the player to get points than the team win games I guess.

Seems a lot of people have become fans of the player instead of the team he plays on.

See, not sure why you say just Mitch Marner here. You could replace his name with Austin Matthews and everything still applies.

Major difference though. One is playing up to his contract and one isn't this year.

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's not a gm job? Got an ufa unsigned--- received an offer and considerate it and taking all info he needed ( like asking marner to know exactly what's he's planning). He would just be worst GM of the world if he didn't but that's saying absolutly nothing about how he values both player

If you think Marner is the better player, would you trade him one-for-one for Rantanen?

 

[Dekes For Days]

You have provided ZERO evidence of how GMs have operated

I told you what the evidence is multiple times. You won't accept it. It's clear that your beliefs about this are locked in, but there's nothing that actually supports your claim, so I have to follow what the contract history data says. That's the actual actions. You are free to believe what you want. We will have to agree to disagree.

why would GMs want to give money for less valuable things? Makes no sense

Nobody said they do. The real question is, why would GMs give less money for something they know is equally valuable and create big market inefficiencies.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

See, not sure why you say just Mitch Marner here. You could replace his name with Austin Matthews and everything still applies.

Major difference though. One is playing up to his contract and one isn't this year.

Maybe because it's a Mitch Marner thread?

 

[NVious]

See, not sure why you say just Mitch Marner here. You could replace his name with Austin Matthews and everything still applies.

Major difference though. One is playing up to his contract and one isn't this year.

They both suck in the playoffs. Matthews is already signed though, that's the difference. He's also a 6'3 center with historic goal scoring capabilities, not a 5'10 skinny winger.

All 4 of the core are the same player, greedy soft overpaid losers, the thing with Mitch though is he is made redundant by the other soft overpaid losers.

He had nearly a decade in Toronto to get it done, he didn't. He has one last chance. If he wants to be paid like McDavid, put a McDavid run together and earn it for once.

Or he can take 14mill in Chicago/San Jose/Pitt, IDGAF. I'd rather 2 of Bennet/Chychrun/Ekblad at 16-18 anyways.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner is going to take the summer to do the "tour". Just like Tavares Marner will go to 5 or 6 cities so GM's can woo him. He is going to get 14 plus. It won't be with Leafs though.

I'm not sure that's the same. Tavares wanted to come to Toronto. Other teams reportedly offered him more but he wasn't interested, other than maybe listening if he thought they would drive up the price.

The difference between actively looking for offers and passively listening to them.

 

[thusk]

If you think Marner is the better player, would you trade him one-for-one for Rantanen?

If Marner wanted to leave and Rantanen was agree to stay yes for sure.

In a scenario Marner want to stay in Toronto, no and that's what he just tried to validate with Marner

He didn't made the deal and go see marner and say we've got a deal in place or whatever... He received an offer by Carolina he should consider in case of Marner wanted to move out and made his job to clarify those thing with him. For the only reason than losing Marner for nothing would hurt the leafs, so yes it ws his job to have this discussion with him.

Making a whole story with absolutly nothing, that's what it is

 

[BraveCanadian]

All 4 of the core are the same player, greedy soft overpaid losers, the thing with Mitch though is he is made redundant by the other soft overpaid losers.

Except that he isn’t, as evidenced by their play this year.

 

[NVious]

Except that he isn’t, as evidenced by their play this year.

Wow he did well in his contract year? Just crazy!!!

Auston, JT, Willie have never done that before and then fallen off..........LOL

Mitch wants to be basically the highest paid player in the NHL, his points/60 go from 12 in the season to 42nd in the playoffs, his goals/60 go from 104th to 205th.

His salary would dictate he is an indispensable 1st line "God," come playoff times he's basically a 2nd liner. 2nd liners don't get paid 13 million.

But it's Mitch though, so since he loves money so much as I said go to Chicago/San Jose/Pitt, I'm sure they'd be thrilled paying him 14+ million.

 

[WTFMAN99]

What does Florida have to move? They get nearly $8 million in new cap space, Bennet and Ekblad looking like they will test free agency

That’s more than enough

I estimated on Samoskevich but I don't see Marner landing there based on this. They'd need 2 RD (one is a top 4), a back up, 4C and 2, and their wing position is pretty strong.

I suppose they could liquidate Rodrigues and Luostarinen but I don't think they're going to bust out 12M for Marner when they negotiated their other guys hard to 7-9M ranges.

 

[francis246]

If Marner wanted to leave and Rantanen was agree to stay yes for sure.

In a scenario Marner want to stay in Toronto, no and that's what he just tried to validate with Marner

He didn't made the deal and go see marner and say we've got a deal in place or whatever... He received an offer by Carolina he should consider in case of Marner wanted to move out and made his job to clarify those thing with him. For the only reason than losing Marner for nothing would hurt the leafs, so yes it ws his job to have this discussion with him.

Making a whole story with absolutly nothing, that's what it is

Agree with you, the leafs did their due diligence as they should. The mistake they made though is by saying or telling the canes, we are only saying no because Marner wouldn’t or won’t waive. You have to be smarter than that.

“Eric, thanks for the offer, as an organization we discussed it internally, we are gonna go a different direction with our assets” . It’s just they were a bit sloppy in their handling of this.

Responding like that gives no indication whether Marner declined to waive or not, protects your player, your organization and yourself from any backlash. Then this summer if he walks, throw out to the fans that he declined to waive and win the PR battle.

 

[Legion34]

I told you what the evidence is multiple times. You won't accept it. It's clear that your beliefs about this are locked in, but there's nothing that actually supports your claim, so I have to follow what the contract history data says. That's the actual actions. You are free to believe what you want. We will have to agree to disagree.

Nobody said they do. The real question is, why would GMs give less money for something they know is equally valuable and create big market inefficiencies.

1.) you have not showed any evidence. You just claim that GMs have operated in this way with no proof. Where is a single quote, correlation, study. Chart. Anything

Trust me bro is not proof. Were you always like this? I always thought you actually considered reality and had stats and math. Must have been someone else?

I can say all GMs value blocked shots more than goals. I did a super secret analysis that shows that contracts correlate with blocked shots more than primary points. It’s just as dumb

2.) you are just saying “GMs would think what I think” is ridiculous NHL GMs Don’t value the things you do. As evidenced by them never discussing it, awarding it, or paying for it

 

[Legion34]

View attachment 990923

I estimated on Samoskevich but I don't see Marner landing there based on this. They'd need 2 RD (one is a top 4), a back up, 4C and 2, and their wing position is pretty strong.

I suppose they could liquidate Rodrigues and Luostarinen but I don't think they're going to bust out 12M for Marner when they negotiated their other guys hard to 7-9M ranges.

Use next year on puckpedia. It gives you the values.

 

[LeafEgo]

Wow he did well in his contract year? Just crazy!!!

Auston, JT, Willie have never done that before and then fallen off..........LOL

Mitch wants to be basically the highest paid player in the NHL, his points/60 go from 12 in the season to 42nd in the playoffs, his goals/60 go from 104th to 205th.

His salary would dictate he is an indispensable 1st line "God," come playoff times he's basically a 2nd liner. 2nd liners don't get paid 13 million.

But it's Mitch though, so since he loves money so much as I said go to Chicago/San Jose/Pitt, I'm sure they'd be thrilled paying him 14+ million.

Matty signed before his contract year even started after a 40g 85p season.

He doesn't even have to get out of bed for 13M.

 

[notDatsyuk]

If Marner wanted to leave and Rantanen was agree to stay yes for sure.

In a scenario Marner want to stay in Toronto, no and that's what he just tried to validate with Marner

He didn't made the deal and go see marner and say we've got a deal in place or whatever... He received an offer by Carolina he should consider in case of Marner wanted to move out and made his job to clarify those thing with him. For the only reason than losing Marner for nothing would hurt the leafs, so yes it ws his job to have this discussion with him.

Making a whole story with absolutly nothing, that's what it is

Marner has said he wants to stay, so your first statement is just avoiding the question.

So you think Marner is more valuable than Rantanen. That is your opinion and that is fine. But the fact that Tre asked (not if he wanted to stay, but if he was willing to waive) seems to indicate that he feels otherwise.

You're putting the cart before the horse. You can't make a deal without first confirming that a deal can be made, which requires Marner to waive his NMC.