Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[ULF_55]

It's likely because they've grown frustrated with the lack of progress in the extension negotiations. Sometimes a show of strength Is needed, especially when the friendly approach (how the core has been treated to date) clearly hasn't led to any progress.

And/or they felt the Rantanen option gave them a better chance to win and they figured it was worth a shot

This is not youth sport, so treating a businessman as a professional/adult should be expected.

If someone isn't interested in negotiating an extension it makes sense to ask them if they're interested in playing for a team that is interested in them.

That could be a win-win.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with treating an adult as an adult.

 

[Stephen]

So Kyper was right about Leafs having the better package bc it was MM.

Canes didn't choose Stars over Leafs bc they can meet in playoffs, it is bc MM said no.

Imagine MM said yes

If he walks this summer, he'll live in infamy in this town for sure.

 

[Gabriel426]

Maybe this is the pressure needed to do that. It does seem like a bit of lose lose situation though now. If he signs before playoffs people will be pissed. If he signs after people will be pissed. If he wants to be here he’s just gotta do it and not care about the outside noise.

I mentioned it yesterday that maybe it was MM’s camp that leaked the info about the trade as they thought it would help MM’s PR….he wants to stay, he loves it here….he wants to be a Leafer…. But what they got was, f***, Leafs could have Rantanen for 12mil*8yrs for MM!!!Why did MM block the trade…..
Then Brad needs to come out today and say we want MM to stay.

Just glad they are on a road trip instead of at Home

 

[ULF_55]

So Kyper was right about Leafs having the better package bc it was MM.

Canes didn't choose Stars over Leafs bc they can meet in playoffs, it is bc MM said no.

Imagine MM said yes

'Canes didn't want to keep a player who could walk at the end of the season after the price they played to get him. From all that was written Rantanen didn't want to extend in Carolina.

Since marner wouldn't waive there was no reason to negotiate an extension.

I doubt 'Canes would have agreed to a trade for an another unsigned player.

'Canes made that clear, by trading Rantanen because he wouldn't re-sign.

Dallas wouldn't complete the trade without an extension, and when Rantanen came back accepting the offer the deal was made.

 

[Stephen]

I mentioned it yesterday that maybe it was MM’s camp that leaked the info about the trade as they thought it would help MM’s PR….he wants to stay, he loves it here….he wants to be a Leafer…. But what they got was, f***, Leafs could have Rantanen for 12mil*8yrs for MM!!!Why did MM block the trade…..
Then Brad needs to come out today and say we want MM to stay.

Just glad they are on a road trip instead of at Home

Mitch might feel better about things if he stopped looking at $12 million like a personal tragedy.

 

[Leaf Fans]

If he walks this summer, he'll live in infamy in this town for sure.

I don't doubt you but, why?

 

[Gabriel426]

'Canes didn't want to keep a player who could walk at the end of the season after the price they played to get him. From all that was written Rantanen didn't want to extend in Carolina.

Yep and they asked for MM instead of Willie who is under contract for 8 yrs

 

[francis246]

If he walks this summer, he'll live in infamy in this town for sure.

For sure, though that should be directed at Shanahan. They could have moved him so many times before now. Why wait? That will always be the question I’d ask. Why let it get to this point?

 

[Dekes For Days]

You did.

Where did I say that primary assists are worth more than goals? Please quote it. That just shows that you're not listening. You are the one trying to claim that goals are worth more than primary assists without evidence.

Look what you wrote. You wrote that the history of contracts is more in line with primary POINT production then goal production.

Yes, which is true. I also wrote that "Only secondary assists correlated with contract history worse than goals."

A 40 goals 100 pt player is worth more than a 30 goal 100 pt player.

That's not enough information to determine who is worth more.

Because as the NHL established. A goal is worth 1.75 assists in contract values.

They never established that.

The NHL players and owners all sat down and quantified values of certain stats. They chose to base performance values on goals, assists, points.

No they didn't. The NHL and the NHLPA just agreed to various benchmarks to ensure that young players that brought some notable contribution to their team would get some additional, consistent compensation while on ELC-restricted salary. They include a wide range of things, like ice time, +/-, going to the all star game, all star game performance, etc. Because it wasn't about quantifying and creating a list of equivalent value things.

Unless you're willing to go on record that you think a good +/- is worth the same as 60 points, or that you think going to the all star game is worth the same as 60 points, or that scoring a couple goals in the All star game is worth the same as scoring 20 goals in the NHL, etc, and that the "quantified value" of 60 points or 20 goals is 250k, then your argument falls apart really quickly.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

It was nice to see what he did in the Four Nations.

BUT if he fails again in the playoffs, they shouldn't even offer him his current contract and just let him walk.

That's enough of this nonsense.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

You sure Marner was the only one to complain about Babcock? You’ve been pretty wrong a lot…

I want to give you the chance to save yourself. But I do remember Babcock having to get on a plane, flying to Arizona and go smooth shit over with Auston right before he got fired.

Kadri literally complained about him in a book. And that means literally really means literally for once.

 

[jaric1862]

I'm actually curious what he wants/what he thinks he will get.

Like if we offered the Draisaitl deal ($14M x 8 Years) would he take it?

Looking at the cap space for next year, no other "contenders" can beat out what we can give him.

If he chases the money, he'll end up, at best, with a middling team like Utah.

 

[ULF_55]

If he walks this summer, he'll live in infamy in this town for sure.

He'll still have a gang of fans regardless.

He'll also have a gang of anti-fans.

He's a very good player, but his production falls quite a bit in the post-season, but that's expected as there are fewer meaningless games, and everyone is more focused.

We can all agree he hasn't been the difference maker in the post-season, because each year the team comes up short, so no one has been the difference maker.

It would be difficult to make the playoffs year after year and be worse.

 

[Evilhomer]

If he walks this summer, he'll live in infamy in this town for sure.

There is an interesting comparison here with Tavares. I was living in New York during Tavares' time in Long Island and the summer he signed with the Leafs. Tavares spent that whole season saying over and over that he wanted to stay in Long Island. Repeated it in every interview he gave. He strung along that fan base in the worst way, and then pulled the rug out from under them, which is why they have reacted to him the way they have ever since (and, in my opinion, justifiably so). Marner, maybe to his credit, isn't doing that, at least right now.

 

[Legion34]

Where did I say that primary assists are worth more than goals? Please quote it. That just shows that you're not listening. You are the one trying to claim that goals are worth more than primary assists without evidence.

Yes, which is true. I also wrote that "Only secondary assists correlated with contract history worse than goals."

That's not enough information to determine who is worth more.

They never established that.

No they didn't. The NHL and the NHLPA just agreed to various benchmarks to ensure that young players that brought some notable contribution to their team would get some additional, consistent compensation while on ELC-restricted salary. They include a wide range of things, like ice time, +/-, going to the all star game, all star game performance, etc. Because it wasn't about quantifying and creating a list of equivalent value things.

Unless you're willing to go on record that you think a good +/- is worth the same as 60 points, or that you think going to the all star game is worth the same as 60 points, or that scoring a couple goals in the All star game is worth the same as scoring 20 goals in the NHL, etc, and that the "quantified value" of 60 points or 20 goals is 250k, then your argument falls apart really quickly.

1.) the NHL uses all of these things in salary arbitration. d men (weaver, colaiacovo) etc have said they use TOI and plus minus in arb. Whether or not they should. They do.

2.) the NHL collectively bargained for performance bonuses. they all agreed on what they thought was important. If they actually cared about “primary points” and that’s what they used for contracts, they would have used them. They did not.

They agreed that goals were 1.75 assists. They did not differentiate between primary and secondary assists and did not use your fake made up category.

You are so wrong that the NHL actually considered TOI and plus minus over your fictional category. It’s kind of embarrassing for you really.

how wrong you are is literally standardized in the CBA

 

[Legion34]

There is an interesting comparison here with Tavares. I was living in New York during Tavares' time in Long Island and the summer he signed with the Leafs. Tavares spent that whole season saying over and over that he wanted to stay in Long Island. Repeated it in every interview he gave. He strung along that fan base in the worst way, and then pulled the rug out from under them, which is why they have reacted to him the way they have ever since (and, in my opinion, justifiably so). Marner, maybe to his credit, isn't doing that, at least right now.

I can’t believe with how sensitive he is he would do this this to himself. He lived the JT debacle.

If he leaves, his number retirement/statue is in jeopardy.

I’m also still not over you jinxing the SJ game.

 

[LeafEgo]

It’s not about Marner’s feelings, it’s about the team. It was stupid for the team to leak it. Now you’ve made this a bigger deal than it needs to be and you think the guys in that locker room are happy about it? Think what you will of Mitch but he’s still one of the 23 men in that locker room. So yeah I’m sure those reports didn’t sit well with everyone. Everyone on that roster was probably thinking management is looking to add to the club not trade the leading scorer.

I understand from a business perspective why it had to be done, but the timing of letting it be leaked to the media was stupid. That would not inspire confidence in the locker room, all it would do is just piss everyone off. Add it to a long list of things this management group continually messes up.

Are we sure the team leaked it?

I didn't see the presser video so can be hard to tell, just read the NYT, but it kinda sounded like Tre was pretty miffed he had to do the thing and wasn't too happy that he now has to play the public over it all while trying to keep focus on the playoffs - then I guess he abruptly left before questions.

 

[arso40]

I want him to walk then I want us to win the cup and beat his team to the cup so we can celebrate while we rub it in his sour face

 

[Legion34]

Are we sure the team leaked it?

I didn't see the presser video so can be hard to tell, just read the NYT, but it kinda sounded like Tre was pretty miffed he had to do the thing and wasn't too happy that he now has to play the public over it all while trying to keep focus on the playoffs - then I guess he abruptly left before questions.

Wouldn’t Carolina leak it?

 

[All Mod Cons]

Just reacting to what's been reported but the critical issue here is Mitch Marner's camp is negotiating with emotional component that goes beyond good sensible, clear headed business.

That is he seems to be threatening free agency while wanting to stay in Toronto, while making reported salary demands that can't be met by a third party in the open market (8th year). And for wanting to stay in Toronto, he seems to also want to stick it to Toronto, or the fanbase, and make Toronto negotiate against the market, while wanting to be emancipated from the psycho drama that he is front and center creating for himself.

It's like he's butt hurt and threatening to take his ball away, while it sounds like the organization has been trying to nail down an extension.

At some point, there's a dollar amount that needs to make sense, and if you want to be in Toronto, act like it. Otherwise, just go away. The organization was here for 100 years before you and will probably be here July 2, 2025.

For a guy who absolutely loves to play for the Leafs, him and his team threaten to not play for the Leafs quite often.

 

[Stephen]

For sure, though that should be directed at Shanahan. They could have moved him so many times before now. Why wait? That will always be the question I’d ask. Why let it get to this point?

All of these guys will live in infamy one way or another if they don't take several steps towards winning a Stanley Cup.

 

[Stephen]

For a guy who absolutely loves to play for the Leafs, him and his team threaten to not play for the Leafs quite often.

I know! "I love this team but I'm going to try and use the threat of the open market to absolutely bend the organization I love over the barrel because it's business, but I might not even want to talk at all."

Ok, whatever you want man.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I know! "I love this team but I'm going to try and use the threat of the open market to absolutely bend the organization I love over the barrel because it's business, but I might not even want to talk at all."

Ok, whatever you want man.

He was on his way to Switzerland at one point I seem to remember.

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

This could have been remedied with - "With respect, Carolina leaked this false rumor and it doesn't come close to reflecting reality." I can't believe our management let a Mickey Mouse club mind f*** us.

 

[Stephen]

This could have been remedied with - "With respect, Carolina leaked this false rumor and it doesn't come close to reflecting reality." I can't believe our management let a Mickey Mouse club mind f*** us.

I think it's okay to turn up the heat on Mitch, why not?