Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Hellcat]

Draisaitl signed last summer for 14 million. Draisaitl was a beast in the playoffs, in addition to having size, playing center, being a goal scorer, and playing in Edmonton. Marner is not comparable to Draisaitl.

Draisaitl has 108 points in 74 playoff games. Marner has 50 in 57.

What does playoff performance have to due with a players salary?

 

[arso40]

The only one of those four that was on Marner's level was Ovechkin, and he didn't sign a UFA contract in his prime. He did however sign the highest cap hit percentage ever on a post-ELC contract at almost 19%. Center/winger isn't as important of a distinction as some around here like to think. Top UFA wingers like Kane, Iginla, Hossa, and Heatley got 15+% on UFA contracts. So was Kovalchuk's UFA contract without the cap circumvention years added on. You even agree with 15%. Well that's 14.3m this summer. Even Panarin's contract would be 13.65m. Cap is going up. It's fine to be hopeful that he takes less, but we should recognise the difference of discount price vs. market and impact value within this cap environment.

What was that now? Only ovi was on his level???marner is the worst of the four named are you joking ?

 

[ToneDog]

Draisaitl signed last summer for 14 million. Draisaitl was a beast in the playoffs, in addition to having size, playing center, being a goal scorer, and playing in Edmonton. Marner is not comparable to Draisaitl.

Draisaitl has 108 points in 74 playoff games. Marner has 50 in 57.

Team playoff success - None
OK Personal success
What major individual trophies has he won ? - None (sorry Molson Cups do not count)
OK has he scored 50 goals ? - No
How about 40 goals ? - No
100 assists ? - No
100 points ? - No

So what makes him think he is worth $14m?

 

[arso40]

Marner is worth more than Pastrnak and Nylander were though. So taking the same as them would be a discount.

I love Mitch but if you believe that I’ll drop you both at the airport

 

[arso40]

Team playoff success - None
OK Personal success
What major individual trophies has he won ? - None (sorry Molson Cups do not count)
OK has he scored 50 goals ? - No
How about 40 goals ? - No
100 assists ? - No
100 points ? - No

So what makes him think he is worth $14m?

It’s insane that I’m hearing he deserves more than pasta n panarin is crazy why does he think so though I really wanna know

What does playoff performance have to due with a players salary?

We are playing to win the cup in the playoffs what are we paying him thst kinda money when he’s under performed his whole contract he’s been a good player but he’s never been a value contract

 

[ToneDog]

I love Mitch but if you believe that I’ll drop you both at the airport

Some might argue Marner is not better than Nylander. Only on planet Dekes is Marner better than Pasta and when you have to pay him more than Pasta, it is no contest.

Show me somebody who's taking Marner over Pasta and I'll show you a shill. Like, just f***off already.

 

[Racer88]

What does playoff performance have to due with a players salary?

Because that’s important. It’s what every player and team strives for.
I do not understand why some think such an important thing as playoff success has no bearing on a players value to the team

 

[IPS]

So a winger whos coming off a 60-goal 113 point, and 47 goal 110 point seasons isn't worthy of being a comparable to the great Mitch Marner

 

[arso40]

I’m just confused why were championing a guy who’s not been a value contract playing with a tier one player to a massive increase

 

[Racer88]

So a winger whos coming off a 60-goal 113 point, and 47 goal 110 point seasons isn't worthy of being a comparable to the great Mitch Marner

Right……..it just boggles the mind

 

[ToneDog]

I’m just confused why were championing a guy who’s not been a value contract playing with a tier one player to a massive increase

And has helped us win one round in 8 years while disappearing when he is needed the most. Another overpay and he will be writing his ticket out of town.

Now is the perfect time for him to sign a team friendly deal that does not make him look as greedy as the last time and gain some good will from the fanbase. The ball is in his court.

 

[francis246]

Because that’s important. It’s what every player and team strives for.
I do not understand why some think such an important thing as playoff success has no bearing on a players value to the team

Because it’s the truth in sports. Players are not paid entirely on playoff. I’m sure it plays a part but it’s smaller than regular season success.

Lots of great players who never did shit in the playoffs have been paid an amazingly. Jack Eichel for example was given 10 million a year and he never scored more than 30 goals prior to receiving that and never made the playoffs.

Look at Brady and Stuzle, they have never sniffed the playoffs in their careers. We need to stop pretending like players are paid for playoffs when they aren’t. If they were Justin Williams would literally be the richest player in NHL history, but there’s a reason why he’s not. When it comes to long term contracts and dishing out double digit millions, you need to be a regular season performer, teams value that a lot. Additionally teams pay players for potential and their potential impact on a team rather than current.

 

[arso40]

Because it’s the truth in sports. Players are not paid entirely on playoff. I’m sure it plays a part but it’s smaller than regular season success.

Lots of great players who never did shit in the playoffs have been paid an amazingly. Jack Eichel for example was given 10 million a year and he never scored more than 30 goals prior to receiving that and never made the playoffs.

Look at Brady and Stuzle, they have never sniffed the playoffs in their careers. We need to stop pretending like players are paid for playoffs when they aren’t. If they were Justin Williams would literally be the richest player in NHL history, but there’s a reason why he’s not. When it comes to long term contracts and dishing out double digit millions, you need to be a regular season performer, teams value that a lot. Additionally teams pay players for potential and their potential impact on a team rather than current.

Eichel was a franchise center how much do you pay those marner got more than him how I don’t know cause I don’t even know if Matthews should get more than him

 

[Dekes For Days]

So a winger whos coming off a 60-goal 113 point, and 47 goal 110 point seasons isn't worthy of being a comparable to the great Mitch Marner

Those came after he signed.

 

[francis246]

Eichel was a franchise center how much do you pay those marner got more than him how I don’t know cause I don’t even know if Matthews should get more than him

You’re joking right..

Matthews, Marner, Nylander destroyed Eichel in terms of ELC production. It wasn’t even close. All three were easily better than Eichel, with less opportunity. Who did Eichel have to compete with in Buffalo? A demotivated Ryan o’Reilly? Evander Kane, Sam Reinhart?

But doesn’t that prove my point? Teams pay based on potential. Ultimately the reality in sports is that players aren’t paid primarily for playoff performance, although a good playoff performance can enhance payment.. playoff performance certainly plays a role, regular season success and potential impact to a team are far more important. Only one team can win at the end of the day, so every owner knows you cant use that as a major driving force in negotiations.

The fact that you’re questioning whether even Matthews should get more than Eichel is mind boggling to me and just shows how one playoff run can completely change a narrative. I could maybe get behind the argument of Marner, but Matthews?! What are we talking about?

 

[arso40]

You’re joking right..

Matthews, Marner, Nylander destroyed Eichel in terms of ELC production. It wasn’t even close. All three were easily better than Eichel, with less opportunity. Who did Eichel have to compete with in Buffalo? A demotivated Ryan o’Reilly? Evander Kane, Sam Reinhart?

But doesn’t that prove my point? Teams pay based on potential. Ultimately the reality in sports is that players aren’t paid primarily for playoff performance, although a good playoff performance can enhance payment.. playoff performance certainly plays a role, regular season success and potential impact to a team are far more important. Only one team can win at the end of the day, so every owner knows you cant use that as a major driving force in negotiations.

The fact that you’re questioning whether even Matthews should get more than Eichel is mind boggling to me and just shows how one playoff run can completely change a narrative. I could maybe get behind the argument of Marner, but Matthews?! What are we talking about?

Not one playoff run the tournament your using to catapult marner I would argue he was better than all our players he also won a cup being the number 1 center we haven’t even gotten out of the first round twice he did it with barbashev and marchy marchy doesn’t look good this year is that a direct correlation to not playing with eichel?he was talked about like an offensive player he was a two way beast for usa being their number 1 center eichel wasn’t put in a position to excel in buffalo look at that franchise our players definitely were put in a much better situation just being honest would you take any of our wingers over eichel right now?

You’re joking right..

Matthews, Marner, Nylander destroyed Eichel in terms of ELC production. It wasn’t even close. All three were easily better than Eichel, with less opportunity. Who did Eichel have to compete with in Buffalo? A demotivated Ryan o’Reilly? Evander Kane, Sam Reinhart?

But doesn’t that prove my point? Teams pay based on potential. Ultimately the reality in sports is that players aren’t paid primarily for playoff performance, although a good playoff performance can enhance payment.. playoff performance certainly plays a role, regular season success and potential impact to a team are far more important. Only one team can win at the end of the day, so every owner knows you cant use that as a major driving force in negotiations.

The fact that you’re questioning whether even Matthews should get more than Eichel is mind boggling to me and just shows how one playoff run can completely change a narrative. I could maybe get behind the argument of Marner, but Matthews?! What are we talking about?

Matthews is a fair argument he was also the number 2 center in which he was the captain that doesn’t tell you something ? I get your position but to make it seem like it’s a wild take is wild ,its close enough to question

 

[francis246]

Not one playoff run the tournament your using to catapult marner I would argue he was better than all our players he also won a cup being the number 1 center we haven’t even gotten out of the first round twice he did it with barbashev and marchy marchy doesn’t look good this year is that a direct correlation to not playing with eichel?he was talked about like an offensive player he was a two way beast for usa being their number 1 center eichel wasn’t put in a position to excel in buffalo look at that franchise our players definitely were put in a much better situation just being honest would you take any of our wingers over eichel right now?


Matthews is a fair argument he was also the number 2 center in which he was the captain that doesn’t tell you something ? I get your position but to make it seem like it’s a wild take is wild ,its close enough to question

lol, what position is the team supposed to put Eichel in? Your argument is he’s a #1 center. He’s supposed to be elevating the play of others, not the other way around.

It doesn’t really tell me anything. Lines 1,2,3,4 in these types of tournaments don’t mean much. Every line is stacked. I’d have to look at the minute distribution, but I’m sure it was barely noticeable between Eichel and Matthews. Anyways, I’m not talking about this tournament alone. I’m talking about production wise, Eichel at 10 mill was a huge overpay by Buffalo and further proves my point, teams have different reasons to why they pay players the way they do. Whether it’s regular season success, “franchise level center”, goal scoring ability, internal cap pushes, to keep the shareholders happy, ect; Often times it has little to nothing to do with playoff production. Matthews, Marner and Nylander are also examples of that.

 

[Maple Leaf]

i mean you love him or you hate him

 

[TopCheeseShotta]

Draisaitl signed last summer for 14 million. Draisaitl was a beast in the playoffs, in addition to having size, playing center, being a goal scorer, and playing in Edmonton. Marner is not comparable to Draisaitl.

Draisaitl has 108 points in 74 playoff games. Marner has 50 in 57.

Keep up. As usual, you're missing the details of the convo. 13 to 14 was in reference to the %'s we've been discussing for 3 pages now, not dollar amounts.

 

[PromisedLand]

Apparently Mitch is going to be a dad soon. Congratulations on the baby

As a gift, I shall keep my angry thoughts about mitch inside as much as possible

 

[francis246]

Keep up. As usual, you're missing the details of the convo. 13 to 14 was in reference to the %'s we've been discussing for 3 pages now, not dollar amounts.

I’m inclined to agree with you. I think if Marner was to take Nylander’s cap % or something close to it, it would be a win win for everyone.

 

[Hellcat]

Because that’s important. It’s what every player and team strives for.
I do not understand why some think such an important thing as playoff success has no bearing on a players value to the team

It has nothing to do with value. Players salary is for regular season, they are not paid for the playoffs. The ignorance of some fans is astounding.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Congrats to the new dad

 

[Antropovsky]

Keep up. As usual, you're missing the details of the convo. 13 to 14 was in reference to the %'s we've been discussing for 3 pages now, not dollar amounts.

Oh im keeping up:

General managers understand that the salary cap will rise each year and agents know this too. That’s why players like Matthews and Marner are opting for short-term contracts, because it allows them to benefit from future cap increases.

Look at the situation with Draisaitl and Marner. Though their contracts end at the same time, Draisaitl signed his deal before the season started while Marner waited for the anticipated cap rise. Even if they receive the same annual salary, Marner’s timing means his deal effectively costs more cap space next year when both his and Draisaitls contracts begin

Colorado’s decision to walk away from Rantanen, reportedly because they dont believe they can win with 3 highly paid players, shows a reluctance to absorb that increased cap hit (even though Rantanen appears to have earned with the amount based on cap%). Though, it becimes increasingly harder to compete with other teams, when other top players similar in age and skill such as Kucherov, M.Tkatchuk, Barkov, and Reinhart have long-term contracts averaging between $8.6 million and 10 million per year.

The question then becomes, is Marner, who is around the same age as these players, really worth 47% to 67% more in cap hit? With these players signed through the prime of Marner’s career, we’d be paying Marner significantly more. Up to 47% more than M.Tkatchuk and 67% more than Reinhart until our cup window is long past.

IMO, agreeing to an average annual contract over $11.6 million for Marner would be cup suicide, especially with Matthews scheduled for another raise in a couple of years. One of these two overpaid players needs to be moved if we are serious about winning a cup and it isn’t going to be Matthews.

 

[francis246]

Oh im keeping up:

General managers understand that the salary cap will rise each year and agents know this too. That’s why players like Matthews and Marner are opting for short-term contracts, because it allows them to benefit from future cap increases.

Consider the situation with Draisaitl and Marner. although their contracts end at the same time, Draisaitl signed his deal before the season started while Marner waited for the anticipated cap rise. Even if they receive the same annual salary, Marner’s timing means his deal effectively costs more cap space.

Colorado’s decision to walk away from Rantanen shows a reluctance to absorb that increased cap hit, especially when other top players—such as Kucherov, M.Tkatchuk, Barkov, and Reinhart—have secured long-term contracts averaging between $8.6 million and 10 million per year.

The question then becomes: Is Marner, who is around the same age as these players, really worth 47% to 67% more in cap hit? With these players signed through the prime of Marner’s career, we’d be paying Marner significantly more. Up to 47% more than M.Tkatchuk and 67% more than Reinhart until our cup window is long past.

In my view, agreeing to an average annual value over $11.6 million for Marner would be cup suicide, especially with Matthews scheduled for another raise in a couple of years. One of these two overpaid players needs to be moved if we are serious about winning a cup and it isn’t going to be Matthews.

Draisaitl signed before the season because Edmonton was willing to pay him 14 million a year and he wanted to stay in Edmonton. That’s literally it. You always try and over analyze a situation.

Maybe Marner doesn’t know if he wants to stay in Toronto and is waiting to see how things play out. He’s already made a lot of money. I don’t think it’s all about money.