Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[leafs in five]

Supporting any player with a good cap hit is a neat twist on cheering for the crest on the front vs the name on the back

 

[BallardEra]

 

[thewave]

McDavid, McMarner lol

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yeah, the more I read these posts the more I think maybe you are Mitchys dad...not his bro in law.Everybody, fans, sports guys, gms , pundits, loves Mitchy, just not at 14 or 15. Point us just like everyone loves Knies, but not above his reasonable market value.Just deliver 1 (one) Lord Stanley and then demand whenever you want. But Mitchy at 15m hurts our chances..not helps. Mitchy at 12 helps us.You love Mitchy, many if us love the Leafs more.

Lol no, calling out bad arguments doesn't make someone related to him or mean they like any player more than the Leafs. People resort to these personal attacks when they have nothing else. Leafs are #1 priority. That's why I like having players that help the Leafs.

I don't know where you're getting 15m for Marner or these numbers for Knies. If you have a legitimate point, you shouldn't need hyperbolic strawmen. Yes, overpaying players isn't good, but your assessment of Marner's true worth isn't accurate.

 

[notdoneyet]

If that same play was reversed and marner was the one going after a pass first player and left mcdavid open like that this place would be so toxic that you couldn’t finish reading a post with all the vitriol being screamed.

Matthews made a grave mistake period.
He left the most dangerous player on the planet all alone in the best scoring position between the hash marks.

It’s ok to admit matthews made a mistake. Yes Fiox chased after the puck but it was matthews man that scored. Matthews has to recognize the players on the ice.
Yes that may have been a set okay but you still have to recognize the situation as it develops. Marner was not going to score from there. You left your man who again is the best player in the planet to go after one of the elite passers in the game who was in prime passing position with lots of time and space.

I’m not slagging on matthews but he was directly responsible for the goal
.
I’m only pointing out we would be on page 732 of people slagging marner if the roles were reversed

 

[Niagara Bill]

There’s no world where Knies is worth 8-10 million right now and anyone who believes that is delusional. Not even his direct comps made that. Is he better than Boldy or Byfield? If Knies goes bridge it’s gonna be in the 5 million range, if he gives up a few UFA years I can see it going to the 7 range

Knies Comparables:

Dawson Mercer - 2 years @ 3.575
Alexis Lafrenière - 2 years @ 2.325
Kirby Dach - 4 years @ 3.362

Yeah if you account for a cap rise we are looking at a bridge between 4 and 5. Not 8 and 10…

I never said he was, I said the fans would turn on him if he was paid that much. That is why they question Mitchy, if he expects 14+..the fans will hate him...at 12 they may appreciate him more. Either deal would hurt the Leafs, and we are Leaf fans before player fans.

 

[Frostitute]

This place will be back to negativity and bs in two days, it's just a toxic environment. I'm proud of this team and darn proud Marner performed on the biggest stage. If a guy like Brady T says this was the biggest game of his career, with a recent ring, no downer is going to deflate the significance of what it meant.

Wrong T.

That being said, lotta negative Nancys around here. Canada just won 4 nations and was considered by most to be an underdog. Marner had a GWG and 2 primary assists in the final to win it all. Honestly I'm not the biggest Marner fan. He has become my "Gardiner" for tv yelling. But credit where credit is due, Canada absolutely would not have won without him. My hats off to the kid.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Lol no, calling out bad arguments doesn't make someone related to him or mean they like any player more than the Leafs. People resort to these personal attacks when they have nothing else. Leafs are #1 priority. That's why I like having players that help the Leafs.

I don't know where you're getting 15m for Marner or these numbers for Knies. If you have a legitimate point, you shouldn't need hyperbolic strawmen. Yes, overpaying players isn't good, but your assessment of Marner's true worth isn't accurate.

You worship players first it is obvious.
At 8m Mitchy is the most loved player, at 10.5 he has been tolerated at this cap level, at a higher cap level, maybe 12 , but never 14.
You over value him.

 

[arso40]

If that same play was reversed and marner was the one going after a pass first player and left mcdavid open like that this place would be so toxic that you couldn’t finish reading a post with all the vitriol being screamed.

Matthews made a grave mistake period.
He left the most dangerous player on the planet all alone in the best scoring position between the hash marks.

It’s ok to admit matthews made a mistake. Yes Fiox chased after the puck but it was matthews man that scored. Matthews has to recognize the players on the ice.
Yes that may have been a set okay but you still have to recognize the situation as it develops. Marner was not going to score from there. You left your man who again is the best player in the planet to go after one of the elite passers in the game who was in prime passing position with lots of time and space.

I’m not slagging on matthews but he was directly responsible for the goal
.
I’m only pointing out we would be on page 732 of people slagging marner if the roles were reversed

Definitely should have left marner in the corner fox was getting to him he couldn’t score from there hence the reason he was extra pissed in the handshake line

 

[kevsh]

People are attacking M. Tkachuk on the main board for being selfish & instrumental on making team usa lose.

Do you agree?

Yes.
As it was clear he was not ready to play before the game he should have sat out the final and let someone take his spot. Imagine how Kyle Connor felt watching that game knowing he should have been in there.

 

[keonsbitterness]

New prediction: Leafs re-sign him for 3-5 years @ 13 (give or take a bit), possibly without a NMC for the final year.

Newer prediction: this thread desperately needs a team of world's best psychiatrists.

 

[Antropovsky]

New prediction: Leafs re-sign him for 3-5 years @ 13 (give or take a bit), possibly without a NMC for the final year.

Newer prediction: this thread desperately needs a team of world's best psychiatrists.

I could see Marner wanting 3. I think 5 would be too risky for a 27 year old.

I also think leafs want to keep a possibility of having money available for Mcdavid next year. If they don't think Mcdavid is remotely possible than I could see them even wanting 3 over 8.

 

[Antropovsky]

Unfortunately, you jumped on the bandwagon of someone else who misread or misunderstood a post or a number of posts.

No one ever said a demotion was a good thing. We were pointing out to Antro that he thought a demotion made one certain player look bad, which is fine, but then, couldn't comprehend that same player later on being promoted back to where he initially was as a positive good thing. All in all it was a net zero, but one specific poster here somehow only saw the whole situation as a negative.

You think that Marner being demoted and then promoted is a net zero?

I disagree. A net zero would mean he remained in the first or even the second line throughout the tournament without ever being demoted. If I were demoted at work, its a message from my boss that I wasn’t performing well. Even if I managed to get promoted later by pulling my socks up, the demotion itself would still be a negative mark. This is exactly what I’ve been arguing: the initial demotion, regardless of the promotion back to the line, is not a good thing.

 

[Confucius]

I wonder if Cooper was really speaking to Marner

 

[Leaffan1991]

Marner deserves an ovation for helping Canada win. I've been hard on him but credit where it's due.

 

[Smif]

You think that Marner being demoted and then promoted is a net zero?

I disagree. A net zero would mean he remained in the first or even the second line throughout the tournament without ever being demoted. If I were demoted at work, its a message from my boss that I wasn’t performing well. Even if I managed to get promoted later by pulling my socks up, the demotion itself would still be a negative mark. This is exactly what I’ve been arguing: the initial demotion, regardless of the promotion back to the line, is not a good thing.

You've never heard the saying "one step back, two steps forward"? That is precisely what happened with Mitch in this tourney.

All I've heard from the anti-Marners is forget the regular season, let's see it in n the playoffs. So he goes and has a crappy round robin, then plays his best hockey in the Championship game, what do we get? "Ya, but he got demoted in the round robin"

Absolutely on point, boys. So consistent.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You've never heard the saying "one step back, two steps forward"? That is precisely what happened with Mitch in this tourney.

All I've heard from the anti-Marners is forget the regular season, let's see it in n the playoffs. So he goes and has a crappy round robin, then plays his best hockey in the Championship game, what do we get? "Ya, but he got demoted in the round robin"

Absolutely on point, boys. So consistent.

All I've ever heard from the Marner fanboys is how awesome he is. The praise dies down like clockwork right after the annual playoff humiliation in the spring, then it starts up again soon after and by the time November rolls around, the playoff failures are forgotten and these threads get flooded with posts about how awesome Marner is, and how dumb everyone is who doesn't understand how great he is.

I'm fine with saying Marner played very well in this tournament, good for him. Does it make up for how disappointing he's been in the playoffs throughout his career? Does it make up for 6 points in 14 games in the last two playoff series we played? No, it does not.

Speaking as a Leaf fan, what I really want to see is for him to be effective for the Leafs past game 86, which is where over the course of his career he's gone from being a ~100 point player to being a ~40 point player. He gets another crack at it soon enough, we'll see. I just hope we don't sign him before that, especially if the price tag suggests that he's one of the best players in the league (he isn't).

 

[Antropovsky]

All I've ever heard from the Marner fanboys is how awesome he is. The praise dies down like clockwork right after the annual playoff humiliation in the spring, then it starts up again soon after and by the time November rolls around, the playoff failures are forgotten and these threads get flooded with posts about how awesome Marner is, and how dumb everyone is who doesn't understand how great he is.

I'm fine with saying Marner played very well in this tournament, good for him. Does it make up for how disappointing he's been in the playoffs throughout his career? Does it make up for 6 points in 14 games in the last two playoff series we played? No, it does not.

Speaking as a Leaf fan, what I really want to see is for him to be effective for the Leafs past game 86, which is where over the course of his career he's gone from being a ~100 point player to being a ~40 point player. He gets another crack at it soon enough, we'll see. I just hope we don't sign him before that, especially if the price tag suggests that he's one of the best players in the league (he isn't).

He finished the tourny strong but he was trending downward quickly. On the 2nd line by game 2, 4th line mins game 3 and much of 4th game.

 

[Sypher04]

No it isn't. Results matter.

Yes, it is. And I already laid out the explanation.

I’m not taking anything away from Marner at all, he was very good and timely in the final and I’m happy for him coming through in a bit moment, but just because his team won on a goal he setup that doesn’t then defacto mean he played better/had a better tournament.

Matthews and Marner were arguably both the best skaters for their team in that game which feels like a pretty huge win as a Leaf fan. I think there’s a lot of optimism we can take from this personally

 

[thewave]

Yes, it is. And I already laid out the explanation.

I’m not taking anything away from Marner, he was very good and timely in the final, but just because his team won on a goal he setup that doesn’t then defacto mean he played better/had a better tournament.

I agree with you. It's the body of work and not the most memorable moments that define a player. It's the little plays he was making when the US was assaulting us in MTL. That was the other tale of Marner, and that tale is relevant and matters in the POs.

 

[notDatsyuk]

So Matty plays better when he isn't with Mitch and Mitch plays better after being demoted?

Am I doing this right?

Seriously, they both played very well, as did Willy.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You worship players first it is obvious. At 8m Mitchy is the most loved player, at 10.5 he has been tolerated at this cap level, at a higher cap level, maybe 12 , but never 14.
You over value him.

Nope. Leafs over everything. It's just really ridiculous to only want Leaf players that help the Leafs if they are massively underpaid. You undervalue Marner and how much impact he brings, and you seem to forget that the cap rises. Even 14m (the highest rumoured ask) would be in the mid 14 percent range, which is not unreasonable for this calibre of player.

 

[DarkKnight]

Yes, it is. And I already laid out the explanation.

I’m not taking anything away from Marner at all, he was very good and timely in the final and I’m happy for him coming through in a bit moment, but just because his team won on a goal he setup that doesn’t then defacto mean he played better/had a better tournament.

Matthews and Marner were arguably both the best skaters for their team in that game which feels like a pretty huge win as a Leaf fan. I think there’s a lot of optimism we can take from this personally

You left out the OT goal, which arguably made the difference getting to the final. Again, results matters. Two games he was a difference maker, Matthews had ZERO goals. Hey, I liked Matthews this tourney, but he played big minutes, PP, and he didn’t pot one goal.

Agree, last game both excellent and as a Leafs fan I’m ecstatic.

 

[thewave]

Nope. Leafs over everything. It's just really ridiculous to only want Leaf players that help the Leafs if they are massively underpaid. You undervalue Marner and how much impact he brings, and you seem to forget that the cap rises. Even 14m (the highest rumoured ask) would be in the mid 14 percent range, which is not unreasonable for this calibre of player.

Most people should probably agree with me and say. He is good, not 14m good.

There isn't even a solid argument that could be tabled for that. How about you put one together, pretend I am a GM. Ok here we go.

Dekes, I am seeing a range of 9.5m to 11m but we are willing to go 11.5m for Marner. I have seen your request for 14m and I think we're too far apart. What am I missing? How is he better than Kucherov or Rantanen? Sell me on 14m.

 

[arso40]

You left out the OT goal, which arguably made the difference getting to the final. Again, results matters. Two games he was a difference maker, Matthews had ZERO goals. Hey, I liked Matthews this tourney, but he played big minutes, PP, and he didn’t pot one goal.

Agree, last game both excellent and as a Leafs fan I’m ecstatic.

So Matthews not scoring is a problem but mitch going through the season not scoring gets a pass? Matthews played a good tourney shoulda burried a couple of them but I’m not sure why your highlighting the zero goals but yes without marners goal Canada might not make it to gold medal game and without Mitch Canada probably loses he was a difference maker