Player Discussion Mitch Marner Part Infinity

[FerrisRox]

You said "Trading negotiation rights is trading the player."

No one's trading the player. The Leafs would be giving up their exclusive rights to *negotiate* with Marner, which they have until July 1. He has every right to turn down any discussions or contract offers from another team. That's not a trade in any way whatsoever. And again, it's allowed and happens once in awhile.

You are mixing two things up.

The Maple Leafs can grant another team permission to talk contract with Mitch Marner and his representatives, and they can do that without getting permission from Marner.

But that team cannot sign Mitch Marner until he is a free agent on July 1st.

If the team wanted to actually sign Marner in advance of him hitting free agency, they would need to acquire his rights, via trade, to do so, and that cannot be done unless Marner first agrees to have his rights traded to another team.

 

[Antropovsky]

I keep reading and hearing by the media that Marner has refused to negotiate at all during the season.

Tree hasnt said this. Marner hasnt said this.

Tree kept saying, we want Marner here for a long time before Shanahan was fired anyway.

Personally, I think if this is the case... Marner has to leave. Him returning could only be framed as it was a greedy tactic to be paid maximum by the Leafs.

If it were about anything other than money, he shouldnt be considering the Leafs at all anymore ..especially with him personally being boo'd anytime he touched the puck in game 7 at home.

 

[AvroArrow]

OR its about getting EVEN more money?

Short term deals can get Marner up to 50 million more over his career..considering cap rises and negotiating a 8 year contract when hes 30-31 vs 36 will give him leverage on a bigger contract through his later years.

- Tree said during the season they want Marner in Toronto for "a long time". Very specific wording.

- Both Matthews deals have been short term deals. Matthews choice. The team has wanted long term deals.

- in 2019, Marner wanted a short term deal. However, Dubas wanted longer. They settled on 6. It was speculated, Marner had two interested teams for an offersheet. One didnt table an offer because they wanted long term and Marner wanted short.

- Uncle Marleau took short deals throughout his career.

Marner didnt sign the 13.5/8 because he is greedy...he wants 13.5x3, so he can sign a 15-16x8 when he is 30 or 31.

My .02 cents, but it aligns with what has happened.

Why would Marner suddenly have a change of heart on long term deals now vs 2019? Especially when his twin, Matthews, obviously wants short term deals?

I think the Leafs should treat him the same way he's treating us (in negotiations) Don't do him any favors, don't go out and say how much you want him here etc etc. and maybe even make it known around the league that we're not interested in bringing him back.

He's gone, like 99.99999% sure he's gone

He's just going to use us as leverage to get max amount of money somewhere else "Toronto is offering me X amount by 8 years"

Don't give him that

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I provided lots of info already, provide your own at this point.

And I'll make it easy for you:

Google Search

You are mixing two things up.

The Maple Leafs can grant another team permission to talk contract with Mitch Marner and his representatives, and they can do that without getting permission from Marner.

But that team cannot sign Mitch Marner until he is a free agent on July 1st.

If the team wanted to actually sign Marner, and have the ability to grant him an 8-year contract, they would need to acquire his rights, via trade, to do so, and that cannot be done unless Marner first agrees to have his right traded to another team.

I'm going to get a ban if I respond to any of you people the way I want to at this point so I will just suggest you look at my most recent post. *NOW* I'm done with this ridiculous discussion. I am right and you are wrong and Rob frigging Lowe beat you in a fight so there's that.

 

[Jbr10ba]

I provided lots of info already, provide your

I provided lots of info already, provide your own at this point.

And I'll make it easy for you:

Google Search

And in case you need more help:

Google Search

Time to show your receipts like I have or go away. This is definitely the last time I respond to you people.

Google

This literally says you cant trade an impending UFA or rights without their consent if they have a NMC.

Key Dates and Concepts for the Offseason

This also says you cant trade a UFA player rights with full NMC.

Those players you listed likely didnt have a full NMC or waived them.

 

[Tak7]

It's not Marner's negotiation rights, it's the Leafs negotiation rights. He has no say in the matter. Again, nothing forces Marner to even talk with the other team, he can just say f*** off, I'm going UFA July 1. It's totally allowed. It just means the Leafs can get scraps so another team can reach out to him him without it being tampering before July 1. No idea why people are even arguing about this. It's happened before many times.

https://puckpedia.com/salary-cap/answers/trading-ufa-rights

Let me say this very clearly, because I'm not sure you understand:

Mitch Marner must waive his no trade clause, in order for the Leafs to trade his negotiating rights.

Every player with trade protection, must waive their trade protection, in order to have their negotiating rights traded to another team. Trading negotiating rights is the same as trading the player, and his contract, and therefore all the standard rules pertaining to said contract apply until that contract has expired.

You can link every single example of teams trading for exclusive negotiations all you want, but many of those examples involve players who either don't have trade protection, have trade protection that doesn't prohibit said team, or who want to negotiate with the team they are going to.

But tomorrow, for example, the Leafs would not be able to trade Marner's rights to a Buffalo or San Jose without Marner agreeing to it.

 

[FerrisRox]

JFC, I literally provided you a link proving you wrong. Here's an entire Google search on the subject. Why do people like you die on these hills instead of just researching it? It's really easy, you just say "Sorry, you were right and I was wrong." I think I've said that about 500 times on these forums. People generally appreciate it.

Google Search

Nobody is disputing the idea that you can trade a players negotiating rights.

What you are being told - and seemingly keep ignoring - is that you cannot trade the negotiating rights of a player with a NMC unless the player agrees to the trade.

 

[Confucius]

Google search : can you trade an expiring UFA with NMC before July 1st.

This search says an expiring UFA with a NMC, like Marner has, cannot be or have negotiation rights traded before July 1st without approval.

Trading Rights:
Even with an NMC, a team can still trade the signing rights to an expiring UFA before July 1st, but the player's consent is needed for the trade

Trading rights is correct and it’s what Hanging jowl and some others have stated. So what is the problem? lol!

 

[notbias]

lol good luck with that... hes scared of contact in the East, imagine him in the big bad west?

Is there any evidence he is scared of contact besides the fact he doesn't put himself in vulnerable positions?

There is evidence Nylander is, but no one likes to talk about that.

 

[ITM]

Are the Maple Leafs a Fit For Toews?​

Brisson confirmed to NHL insider Pierre LeBrun that Toews is open for business on July 1 as free agency begins. Everyone is in the mix, even if the veteran forward might have hopes that a few teams will get in the mix.

Among the clubs Toews would reportedly be open to joining is the Toronto Maple Leafs. According to Nick Alberga of The Leafs Nation, Brisson confirmed that “everything is open” and included the Leafs as one of the teams Toews would “willingly consider.”

Meanwhile, Toronto GM Brad Treliving said at his end-of-season media availability that the Maple Leafs’ “DNA” needs to evolve. There’s something wrong between the ears for many of the players on the team, and the priority might be finding a veteran who can play, but has also been there and done that, elevating his game when it’s needed most.

There will be questions about how effective Toews can be in the NHL next season. That said, his championship pedigree and leadership could make him a valuable addition in a depth role, especially as a third-line or depth center. A three-time Stanley Cup winner and former Selke Trophy recipient, Toews brings 1,067 games of NHL experience and a reputation as one of the game’s most respected leaders.

Jonathan Toews Open to Joining Maple Leafs as Part of Comeback

Jonathan Toews is making an NHL comeback and he would be open to the Toronto Maple Leafs as an option next season.

nhltradetalk.com

Lots of ways to spend the Marner cap space .. I'm all on board with Toews.

Again. You realize - even with the italicized bolded - that speculative openness from one side, and even from Toronto, does not a good fit make between Toews and the Leafs?

The year before he left, he was the Hawks third worst defensive player (i.e. - 31).

The last year he played like a Selke winner he was 27, having won the trophy once when he was 25.

He's 37 and a half this October having missed two seasons.

Lots of ways to spend money. I like blind hope when I occasionally buy a lottery ticket. There is a greater chance of me hitting on a lottery ticket, then Jonathan Toews being successful in Toronto as a player.

Hire him as an assistant coach for all I care. But Father Time isn't encouraging Toews to give it one more shot. I think its the same misguided feelings that took him out of the game, perhaps a season or two, too early.

Nothing like having a former great player who can't play great anymore, being serious and pissed with our fragile little group. Like the opposite side of the same Marner dilemma coin, where an absence of performance isn't going to translate to effective vocal and authoritative leadership.

As an "associate coach", his voice would be much more credible and effective.

 

[Jbr10ba]

Trading rights is correct and it’s what Hanging jowl and some others have stated. So what is the problem? lol!

Im not arguing about trading his rights. Sure you can if he agrees before July 1st. This is seemingly about trading his rights while he has a full NMC without his consent.

 

[ITM]

Is there any evidence he is scared of contact besides the fact he doesn't put himself in vulnerable positions?

There is evidence Nylander is, but no one likes to talk about that.

What's the material difference then?

Between Marner and Nylander, Nylander demonstrates greater selective engagement. Marner outright disengages by almost completely engaging the perimeter (in the playoffs).

Even in his post-series exit interviews, its Marner and Marner alone saying he needs to work on getting stronger in the off-season. Not Nylander.

 

[Stephen]

I keep reading and hearing by the media that Marner has refused to negotiate at all during the season.

Tree hasnt said this. Marner hasnt said this.

Tree kept saying, we want Marner here for a long time before Shanahan was fired anyway.

Personally, I think if this is the case... Marner has to leave. Him returning could only be framed as it was a greedy tactic to be paid maximum by the Leafs.

If it were about anything other than money, he shouldnt be considering the Leafs at all anymore ..especially with him personally being boo'd anytime he touched the puck in game 7 at home.

I see it as a greedy tactic to exert pressure but also seeking validation by being courted by 31 other teams like Brad Richards when he hit free agency. He hasn’t closed the door on signing with the Leafs and that actually makes him more annoying.

Basically you want to stick to the team and you want to milk them. You want to make a big stink about leaving and you’re maneuvering to get a hometown overpay. Like well just take Bennett and Ekblad, please.

 

[notbias]

What's the material difference then?

Putting yourself in vulnerable positions for no reason is pointless.

His game has always been about being elusive, him engaging in contact where he will likely lose the battle is pointless.

Between Marner and Nylander, Nylander demonstrates greater selective engagement. Marner outright disengages by almost completely engaging the perimeter (in the playoffs).

Nylander avoids contact because he doesn't want to get hit, Marner's game is more about slowing things down on the perimeter, you are comparing someone who is afraid of contact vs someone who had styled their game around their strengths, Marner is not big, he is not going to outmuscle guys.

Even in his post-series exit interviews, its Marner and Marner alone saying he needs to work on getting stronger in the off-season. Not Nylander.

I don't care about what someone says, but okay.

Still doesn't mean he is going to start turning into a power forward and hitting or become a rush player.

 

[Tak7]

Trading rights is correct and it’s what Hanging jowl and some others have stated. So what is the problem? lol!

Jowl seems to think that Marner has no say in whether the Leafs trade his negotiating rights or not.

He would still have to waive his NMC - which he fundamentally doesn't seem to comprehend.

 

[AvroArrow]

I keep reading and hearing by the media that Marner has refused to negotiate at all during the season.

Tree hasnt said this. Marner hasnt said this.

Tree kept saying, we want Marner here for a long time before Shanahan was fired anyway.

Personally, I think if this is the case... Marner has to leave. Him returning could only be framed as it was a greedy tactic to be paid maximum by the Leafs.

If it were about anything other than money, he shouldnt be considering the Leafs at all anymore ..especially with him personally being boo'd anytime he touched the puck in game 7 at home.

I don't recall him being booed at all up until it was 4-1

 

[Confucius]

Jowl seems to think that Marner has no say in whether the Leafs trade his negotiating rights or not.

He would still have to waive his NMC - which he fundamentally doesn't seem to comprehend.

I think everyone agrees Mitch would have to agree to be traded. Now if some team wanted to trade for the right to negotiate with Mitch, I’m sure they could. It doesn’t affect Mitch if he doesn’t want to move.

 

[Stephen]

Putting yourself in vulnerable positions for no reason is pointless.

His game has always been about being elusive, him engaging in contact where he will likely lose the battle is pointless.

Nylander avoids contact because he doesn't want to get hit, Marner's game is more about slowing things down on the perimeter, you are comparing someone who is afraid of contact vs someone who had styled their game around their strengths, Marner is not big, he is not going to outmuscle guys.

I don't care about what someone says, but okay.

Still doesn't mean he is going to start turning into a power forward and hitting or become a rush player.

Marner is the softest player in the NHL. Nylander is not particularly aggressive but he’s built himself into a tank over the past decade and can simply use his lower body strength to shield against defenders and is at least able to compete in high traffic areas. When did Marner ever go to Gary Roberts to get stronger?

 

[notbias]

Marner is the softest player in the NHL. Nylander is not particularly aggressive but he’s built himself into a tank over the past decade and can simply use his lower body strength to shield against defenders and is at least able to compete in high traffic areas. When did Marner ever go to Gary Roberts to get stronger?

Cool.

 

[tuckerintensity]

It literally says "Before the UFA season, a team can trade for the negotiating rights to a player who will become an UFA." Yes it's an AI link, in case you haven't noticed, that's what all of the major platforms have shifted to.

And then there's many other posts from other sites in the search link saying the same thing. What more are you looking for? I'm done on this topic. It's so obvious I'm right but these frigging forums are infected by people that just can't see facts. It ruins the place.

Dude, I don't know if you're right or not (and don't care), I just don't think what you posted or thinking that because some other people said it on other boards is a definitive way to show this to be a factual statement.

 

[ITM]

Putting yourself in vulnerable positions for no reason is pointless.

His game has always been about being elusive, him engaging in contact where he will likely lose the battle is pointless.



Nylander avoids contact because he doesn't want to get hit, Marner's game is more about slowing things down on the perimeter, you are comparing someone who is afraid of contact vs someone who had styled their game around their strengths, Marner is not big, he is not going to outmuscle guys.



I don't care about what someone says, but okay. Still doesn't mean he is going to start turning into a power forward and hitting or become a rush player.

So…To the red. That’s Marner speaking, not Nylander.

I bolded the rest except the Nylander beginning (also red) to ask why you believe that applies to Nylander but not Marner. So as an example (or two):

Why is it pointless for Marner to be vulnerable but not Nylander?

Why isn’t Nylander justified in being elusive, but Marner is?

 

[notbias]

So…To the red. That’s Marner speaking, not Nylander.

I bolded the rest except the Nylander beginning (also red) to ask why you believe that applies to Nylander but not Marner. So as an example (or two):

Why is it pointless for Marner to be vulnerable but not Nylander?

Why isn’t Nylander justified in being elusive, but Marner is?

Nylander has given up on many puck battles because someone was going to hit him, Marner is not even close to that level.

They both primarily use their stick and avoid contact because other parts of their game are better, which is fine, wouldn't critique either for this, but Nylander bailing on pucks in the corner to not get hit is exclusive to him.

 

[Aashir]

Nylander has given up on many puck battles because someone was going to hit him, Marner is not even close to that level.

They both primarily use their stick and avoid contact because other parts of their game are better, which is fine, wouldn't critique either for this, but Nylander bailing on pucks in the corner to not get hit is exclusive to him.

nylander will bail on the play sure

marner will "take the long and smart route" to ensure its not a 50/50 puck, its instead him trying to deflect a pass out of the air with his stick, no contact can ever be initiated if he's purposefully late.

ones intent is obvious, the other tries to hide it

both are disgusting ways to play and aren't how leaders of any playoff aspiring team should play

 

[joepeps]

Is there any evidence he is scared of contact besides the fact he doesn't put himself in vulnerable positions?

There is evidence Nylander is, but no one likes to talk about that.

willy will go in corners and drive the net when he wants... Mitch not so much... so yeah there is tons of evidence on Mitch bailing on plays to not get hit.

 

[NMacrules]

This could leach until fall. He will be a Penquin. Dubas loves him and they have cap.