Player Discussion Mitch Marner Part Infinity

[Gabriel426]

It’s more about paying them what their worth while team still has cap space to bring in other pieces we desperately need!

Past years it’s the top 4 and we can’t add anyone else

Knies, MM and JT currently makes 23mil combined. Let’s say all three will cost 23mil to resign. Then what?
It is still essentially the same core, the same culture, the same attitude, the same Chokers in elimination game.

I really don’t understand how anyone can have faith in the Core 5 in winning the Cup after what they had shown in the past 7 yrs of playing together.

What’s the appeal? Like honestly, as Leafs fans I think we want to see the team Win the Cup. These guys just can’t do it, they really can’t, it is not like they are waiting to break through, they don’t have it in them collectively.

 

[Dragao6]

I see no scenario he returns. You can’t run it back and he’s up for a contract. Be nice if we can extract a sign and trade.

It is interesting to see Florida skating circles around Carolina, speaks to the level of play this series. We weren’t that far off really, doesn’t matter, but it’s context.

We were
In some of those games we got crushed harder then Carolina is getting beaten by

We went 7 games but some of those were very lopsided not in our favor

 

[Gabriel426]

Uh...no. Saying we took the Panthers to 7 is bordering on disingenuous when you say it as a blanket statement. Game 5 and game 7 tell a different story. We are not close.

You can add Game 5 against the Sens in there too

 

[Dragao6]

We shouldn’t even want Marner back or JT for that matter. Isn’t 9 years of this core (7 for Tavares) enough to show they just don’t have what it takes.

Yes but put them in their place
Tavares is a 3rd line center powerplay 2 making 3.5
That’s only way they come back

I guess in Marners case u need to add a limited non trade deal like list of 5 or something

 

[Gabriel426]

We were
In some of those games we got crushed harder then Carolina is getting beaten by

We went 7 games but some of those were very lopsided not in our favor

Against the Sens, there were THREE OT games, which means THREE games that could go either way. Two games where Leafs won easy and one game where Sens won easy.

Against the Panthers, there were 5 games that could had gone either way but the two other ones were absolute domination from Panthers.

I really don’t think this team is close to winning the Cup and the Core 5 once again proved that they are great secondary players but not players that could lead. In short, Betas playing as Alphas.

 

[Racer88]

Against the Sens, there were THREE OT games, which means THREE games that could go either way. Two games where Leafs won easy and one game where Sens won easy.

Against the Panthers, there were 5 games that could had gone either way but the two other ones were absolute domination from Panthers.

I really don’t think this team is close to winning the Cup and the Core 5 once again proved that they are great secondary players but not players that could lead. In short, Betas playing as Alphas.

Betas being paid like Alphas

 

[Antropovsky]

Most former NHL players, even the legends see the same in Mitch Marner...no heart.

MItch Marner is skating around covering his face with his glove, afraid to be hit (see my avatar), hes "skating into corners like a figure skater, afraid to be hit" -Vaive... hes yelling at the Leaf bench "Dry hair and not a scratch on your face...come on fella" - Obrien.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Against the Sens, there were THREE OT games, which means THREE games that could go either way. Two games where Leafs won easy and one game where Sens won easy.

Against the Panthers, there were 5 games that could had gone either way but the two other ones were absolute domination from Panthers.

I really don’t think this team is close to winning the Cup and the Core 5 once again proved that they are great secondary players but not players that could lead. In short, Betas playing as Alphas.

Game 4 was also domination by the Panthers. The score flattered the Leafs

 

[PhantomLeaf]

Going to be interesting with Marner moving on. Him and Nylander did not get along at all, and it seems Matthews was in the Mitch camp.

We could be looking at something spicy erupting in the locker-room.

 

[centipede2233]

Against the Sens, there were THREE OT games, which means THREE games that could go either way. Two games where Leafs won easy and one game where Sens won easy.

Against the Panthers, there were 5 games that could had gone either way but the two other ones were absolute domination from Panthers.

I really don’t think this team is close to winning the Cup and the Core 5 once again proved that they are great secondary players but not players that could lead. In short, Betas playing as Alphas.

Agreed here. The issue is that marner and Matthew’s play way below there caphit come playoff time. Those 3 game winners vs Ottawa were domi, benoit and Pacioretty. Why isn’t it you $11 million players winning games. The leafs got lucky against the sens

 

[Puckstuff]

Leafs fans and more importantly management are going to find out the hard way that letting Marner go is going to cost them wins.

Marner is better than any two guys they’d bring in to replace him i.e Granlund/Boeser, for example. And Bennett is not happening.

Yes, the Leafs need balance. But the way to fix the top 9 was by not stacking the top 6 and forcing Marner and Matthews together (a combo that hasn't had chemistry in years.) The solution was always to let Marner, Matthews, and Nylander each run their own line and that's how we have balance.

Knies – Matthews – Domi
McMann – Tavares – Nylander
Steeves – Laughton – Marner

This is better than anything I’ve read on here with incoming UFAs, most of whom are older and not moving the needle.

 

[mikeyz]

Knies, MM and JT currently makes 23mil combined. Let’s say all three will cost 23mil to resign. Then what?
It is still essentially the same core, the same culture, the same attitude, the same Chokers in elimination game.

I really don’t understand how anyone can have faith in the Core 5 in winning the Cup after what they had shown in the past 7 yrs of playing together.

What’s the appeal? Like honestly, as Leafs fans I think we want to see the team Win the Cup. These guys just can’t do it, they really can’t, it is not like they are waiting to break through, they don’t have it in them collectively.

Bang on

 

[mikeyz]

Leafs fans and more importantly management are going to find out the hard way that letting Marner go is going to cost them wins.

Marner is better than any two guys they’d bring in to replace him i.e Granlund/Boeser, for example. And Bennett is not happening.

Yes, the Leafs need balance. But the way to fix the top 9 was by not stacking the top 6 and forcing Marner and Matthews together (a combo that hasn't had chemistry in years.) The solution was always to let Marner, Matthews, and Nylander each run their own line and that's how we have balance.

Knies – Matthews – Domi
McMann – Tavares – Nylander
Steeves – Laughton – Marner

This is better than anything I’ve read on here with incoming UFAs, most of whom are older and not moving the needle.

At this point, I really don’t give a shit if it costs us wins.

Something has got to change. And we now have 9 years of data that proves that when push comes to shove, this core CANNOT get it done come playoff time, especially the deeper the series goes.

Enough is enough.

 

[thewave]

They should really push him on a sign and trade to get us assets back.

Step 1 give him permission to talk to other teams to test his worth.

Step 2. We sign him to 14 or whatever

Step 3. We trade to the low tax team he wants and retain the agreed upon amount.

Example. We get 1st+Good Prospect for MM 13.5m x 8 (-1.5m retained 4 years)

Only way to get something back.

 

[Voodoo Child]

Leafs fans and more importantly management are going to find out the hard way that letting Marner go is going to cost them wins.

Marner is better than any two guys they’d bring in to replace him i.e Granlund/Boeser, for example. And Bennett is not happening.

Yes, the Leafs need balance. But the way to fix the top 9 was by not stacking the top 6 and forcing Marner and Matthews together (a combo that hasn't had chemistry in years.) The solution was always to let Marner, Matthews, and Nylander each run their own line and that's how we have balance.

Knies – Matthews – Domi
McMann – Tavares – Nylander
Steeves – Laughton – Marner

This is better than anything I’ve read on here with incoming UFAs, most of whom are older and not moving the needle.

What does losing Mitch cost us really, 12-15 RS points?

Backfill his cap with guys and it might not totally compensate but it's clear he needs to go. Forget the playoffs and his performances that look good on paper (PPG this year - 13 in 13), but it's apparent the market and the room have rejected him.

I agree with your other points though and they tie in - the team needs to be harder to play against, he is not hard to play against. It'd be nice if somehow they could add Crouse and Faksa, whoever and bring balance, but we'll have to see.

 

[The Shadow]

What does losing Mitch cost us really, 12-15 RS points?

Backfill his cap with guys and it might not totally compensate but it's clear he needs to go. Forget the playoffs and his performances that look good on paper (PPG this year - 13 in 13), but it's apparent the market and the room have rejected him.

I agree with your other points though and they tie in - the team needs to be harder to play against, he is not hard to play against. It'd be nice if somehow they could add Crouse and Faksa, whoever and bring balance, but we'll have to see.

Faksa is a ufa

 

[IPS]

I reckon we give it another month before they memory hole this last playoff showing and go back to clamouring how incredibly elite Marner is and how foolish the Leafs would be to not re-sign him, no matter what cost.


His whole style of playing 30 feet from the net lobbing floaters from the blueline has to the most anti-playoff style I've ever seen.

 

[IPS]

Knies, MM and JT currently makes 23mil combined. Let’s say all three will cost 23mil to resign. Then what?
It is still essentially the same core, the same culture, the same attitude, the same Chokers in elimination game.

I really don’t understand how anyone can have faith in the Core 5 in winning the Cup after what they had shown in the past 7 yrs of playing together.

What’s the appeal? Like honestly, as Leafs fans I think we want to see the team Win the Cup. These guys just can’t do it, they really can’t, it is not like they are waiting to break through, they don’t have it in them collectively.

Honestly the only reason I can think of his some fans just want familiarity and are terrified of change.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Going to be interesting with Marner moving on. Him and Nylander did not get along at all, and it seems Matthews was in the Mitch camp.

We could be looking at something spicy erupting in the locker-room.

Which of those three players is going to do/say "something spicy"?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Leafs fans and more importantly management are going to find out the hard way that letting Marner go is going to cost them wins.

Marner is better than any two guys they’d bring in to replace him i.e Granlund/Boeser, for example. And Bennett is not happening.

Yes, the Leafs need balance. But the way to fix the top 9 was by not stacking the top 6 and forcing Marner and Matthews together (a combo that hasn't had chemistry in years.) The solution was always to let Marner, Matthews, and Nylander each run their own line and that's how we have balance.

Knies – Matthews – Domi
McMann – Tavares – Nylander
Steeves – Laughton – Marner

This is better than anything I’ve read on here with incoming UFAs, most of whom are older and not moving the needle.

The problem with that is paying 13.5 for a third line winger.

 

[Legion34]

They should really push him on a sign and trade to get us assets back.

Step 1 give him permission to talk to other teams to test his worth.

Step 2. We sign him to 14 or whatever

Step 3. We trade to the low tax team he wants and retain the agreed upon amount.

Example. We get 1st+Good Prospect for MM 13.5m x 8 (-1.5m retained 4 years)

Only way to get something back.

No I think you would agree to the deal first.

Ie. mitch says: I really want to see what Vegas is going to offer me.

We say to Vegas. Mitch wants 8 years. We are talking to teams. What would you give us for him for the 8th and what salary.

Ok they agree 8x12 and we get a sweetener.
Like karlson/hague. Or maybe they want to move off a bigger salary.

Like stone/petro etc. or maybe they don’t like hertls fit who knows.

If we sign him to an 8 year and retain that would be nuts.

 

[Legion34]

I wonder if Mitch would sign and then we force Willy out.

Like would Willy want to go to Vegas? Or LA?

Then you get assets instead of leaving for nothing.

For example.
Clarke and 1st for Willy. Then
Sign Mitch and still have money for a. Kane etc.

This is the 5% scenario.

I would say 55% he resigns
40 he goes
5% we sign him and trade someone else

 

[notDatsyuk]

They should really push him on a sign and trade to get us assets back.

Step 1 give him permission to talk to other teams to test his worth.

Step 2. We sign him to 14 or whatever

Step 3. We trade to the low tax team he wants and retain the agreed upon amount.

Example. We get 1st+Good Prospect for MM 13.5m x 8 (-1.5m retained 4 years)

Only way to get something back.

First, in your example the team we're trading him to thinks he's only worth 12 (13.5 - 1.5), so why would we sign him for more?

Second, if he's willing to go to that team, why sign here (which would cost his new team assets) instead if just signing there as a free agent?

 

[ACC1224]

I wonder if Mitch would sign and then we force Willy out.

Like would Willy want to go to Vegas? Or LA?

Then you get assets instead of leaving for nothing.

For example.
Clarke and 1st for Willy. Then
Sign Mitch and still have money for a. Kane etc.

This is the 5% scenario.

I would say 55% he resigns
40 he goes
5% we sign him and trade someone else

That’s always been the teams preference, you would want to keep the better player, every team would. Ultimately it’s up to Marner now.

 

[Legion34]

First, in your example the team we're trading him to thinks he's only worth 12 (13.5 - 1.5), so why would we sign him for more?

Second, if he's willing to go to that team, why sign here (which would cost his new team assets) instead if just signing there as a free agent?

To get the 8th year. Players don’t care about costing team draft picks/assets Thats a fan mentality.

Most places Marner would want to go don’t have 13 million in space. They will have to make room anyway

if he wants to go to Vegas (tsn Darren Dreger is really close to the Marner camp and has always acted as his mouthpiece actually said this on Toronto radio. Marner would consider signing and trading)

They need to get rid of salary. It may be simpler to trade salary to Toronto for useful not star players (karlson/hague/roy types).

Again Darren Dreger said they may want to do that. And he is clearly in the Marner camp. He was the one who was doing the Marner public negotiations last time.

“Marner may go to Zurich”
“Columbus tried to get him to sign a sheet”

All was dreger for monthS