Player Discussion Mitch Marner Part Infinity

[Racer88]

Marner told us years ago theres nothing he needs to improve on over the summer.

He is a god so of course there is no need for improvement

 

[GoonieFace]

Can’t wait till he re-signs. This organization will bend the knee.

 

[Tak7]

I'm not sure about a rebuild in Pittsburg, it seems like Dubas is insistent on giving Crosby one last run to the playoffs...I'm not sure he has the guts to tear it all down now, considering his recent comment about a Caps resurgence with an old Ovechkin. The problem with any GM overpaying Marner is that every player on the team will want more money...it's going to be fine line to walk for every GM.

It wasn't scorched earth, but Pitt moved some bodies out last year - Bunting (and then Schenn), Beauvillier, Marcus Pettersson, O'Conner, Cody Glass, etc. I think they are moving into that direction of rebuilding or doing a strip down + retool. Either way, I don't think Marner fits their program.

Teams that are good at negotiating don't have to worry about a UFA Marner overpay changing the salary profile of their roster.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Maybe he wants it now after 3 consecutive years of missing the playoffs with the Pens...but he sure didn't want that when he first joined the Pens...though his comment about a Caps resurgence is kind of conflicting...perhaps the Carolina beating in the second round of an old Ovechkin gets him reconsidering about a rebuild.

Yeah I don't think he originally wanted it but when you take a deep dive into the Penguins you realize you have no choice but a complete teardown very soon.

I think blowing their load on a guy like Marner, for example, would be incredibly shortsighted. His regular season excellence hurts their standings at draft time but he doesn't move the needle enough to help them advance in the postseason either.

 

[Antropovsky]

Marner should have linked up with Gary Roberts years ago.

He looked like he had more muscle mass when he was 20 than he does now. I think the commercials, fame and money came too quickly for him. He made it...didnt need to train anymore.

 

[Tak7]

Can’t wait till he re-signs. This organization will bend the knee.

While I do think the organization will absolutely, at least once before July 1st, spread their cheeks to convince him to stay, he's long gone.

You could tell by his comments most of the year that he's just not interested in doing this again.

And he's never been great with the media - he doesn't have the capacity to manipulate words as part of some sort of "are you sure you want life without me?" negotiating ploy.

What you see is what you get with Marner, on and off the ice.

 

[ULF_55]

We know who marner is.

We also know who Matthews is.

Matthews is tied for 5th. all time goal scorers on the Leafs with George Armstrong, Steve Thomas and William Nylander for playoffs goals.

26 goals each.

Nylander for the most part has played with a top Center, Tavares in the playoffs.
Matthews for the most part has played with an all-star Right Winger, marner.

We hear complaints about Tavares speed and decline, but he did score 38 goals this year.
Matthews is frequently "not healthy", and that was the case again this year. Scoring 3 goals in 13 playoffs games, compared to Nylanders' 6.

Is it a stretch to suggest, both Nylander (leading scorer) and marner (2nd. leading scorer) might have accomplished more with better/healthier linemates?

Look a the chance assists marner generated ... highest there, but we can speculate they were chance assists to Matthews?

Nylander and Matthews chance assists are about the same, but one is a center one is a winger. One passes to an all-star linemate, the other passes to an older, previous all-star linemate.

So yes, marner has better linemates than Nylander, but one of them was once again, playing injured.

We should be more concerned about Matthews than marner or Nylander.

That Nylander is tied with Matthews in career playoffs goals, when Matthews is a 3 time Rocket winner indicates he isn't able to fight through heavier playoffs coverage. Keep in mind half the games are played at home, so the Leafs coach determines who Matthews starts against. We've seen in previous playoffs he can go cold for stretches, like Nylander did against the Panthers. But Nylander isn't a 3 time Rocket winner, expectations should be much higher for Matthews to finish off those chances created by marner, than Nylander on those chances created by Tavares.

Sure, marner may not excel in heavier coverage, but he's undersized and relies on guile, not strength, whereas 6'3", 217 lb. Matthews should be able to stand up to the coverage.

Bringing back marner would not be the end of the franchise, but perhaps there has to be a change with who he plays with once the real season begins?

 

[thewave]

Guys like Joey Crabb would come back and score winners on us... Marner could get half the cap somewhere and he'd somehow still be a one man show when he played against Toronto.

Nah he is an emotional shamblecase. He won't do anything. Just hide up high and get an A once in a while.

 

[Stephen]

He looked like he had more muscle mass when he was 20 than he does now. I think the commercials, fame and money came too quickly for him. He made it...didnt need to train anymore.

I don’t see any of our Leaf players being particularly focused on fitness other than Nylander who clearly turned himself into a tank with associated play style evolution.

Matthews seemed to be bigger and more powerful in previous years but this year he was a lot leaner and more shy in traffic (and hurt yada yada).

 

[thewave]

Hey wait a minute I thought they said 15.5m lol

 

[hockeywiz542]

Nick Kypreos: The Leafs have undervalued Mitch Marner for years. They’ll pay the price when he leaves

It often seemed like Mike Babcock was trying to sabotage his development. And the team lowballed him at contract time. Still, he was the fastest to reach 700 points in

www.thestar.com

So if people wonder why I like this player so much, it’s because of what he needlessly had to endure early in his NHL career. He’s the underdog who overachieved.

The poor treatment gave Marner the determination to fight for his second contract in 2019 when the Leafs made a catastrophic error in judgment by underestimating his production and value. The offer of $6 million (U.S.) a year for the maximum eight years was undervalued for his point production, so it was easily rejected, and his team chose to wait for Auston Matthews, also due for a bridge deal, to re-sign first.

But it was the John Tavares free-agent contract — the seven-year, $77-million megadeal negotiated by former general manager Kyle Dubas — that caused the team’s salary-cap chaos and raised the price for those that followed: first Matthews, then Marner. That put the cap balance out of whack and the Leafs have never recovered.

As we are all painfully aware, the miscalculation to not bump the offer to $7.5 million or $8 million annually for Marner’s eight-year bridge deal (which many believe could have gotten the deal done, even before Matthews’ extension was finalized) was a miscalculation of epic proportions. Can you imagine how differently things may have looked today if it had come together? Marner would have been under contract for two more seasons with an incredible cap-friendly contract.

Instead, the green Dubas focused on the big splash, setting a new bar with Tavares at $11 million a season and Matthews several months later at $11.3 million and it instantaneously drove Marner’s asking price to almost double what they originally wanted to pay.

There’s no disputing the facts — the Leafs are 2-9 in playoff series in the Matthews-Marner era and have gone winless in the six Game 7s they’ve played (and let’s not forget the winner-take-all Game 5 against Columbus in 2020). The latest lopsided loss against the defending Stanley Cup champion Florida Panthers — as unfathomable as it was ugly — was going to get pinned on someone and Marner is as easy a target as any.

Leafs president Brendan Shanahan, with a contract set to expire and the New York Islanders reportedly knocking on his door, will be most remembered as the man who could not recognize that his Core Four was not the cohesive unit he wanted it to be. Management and players can speak all they want off the ice regarding how close and tight and caring they all are, but it’s not what we witnessed on the ice when it mattered most. At times they looked and acted as if every man was for himself.

This band so desperately needed to break up and not one of the decision makers saw it or chose to admit it — or was able to do anything about it before it was too late and contract movement anchors kicked in. And last summer when there was no firm indication Marner would sign an extension, the Leafs could have played hardball and tried to push their star into offering up a handful of destinations he would waive his no-trade clause for. Instead they chose to play it out, hope and pray their playoff demons would be exorcized and maybe, just maybe, he would stick around at their number.

 

[Mess]

Marner's Leafs legacy comes into play here, as how he wants to end this..

He apparently already in the past turned down a Leafs offer mid season (that is no longer now on the table). He voided a trade possibility and after another brutal playoffs where he recorded 1 single assists and 3 shots on net in games #4-7 of the Florida series.

He cost us Rantanen and maybe even a Cup as Leafs would still perhaps be playing if we had Mikko the NHL's leading playoff scorer in our line-up. Mikko's 9-11-20 points would look really good right now in our Cup pursuit.

It would be nice if Marner did the Leafs a solid if he is indeed departing by agreeing to a sign and trade to get that 8th season perhaps that allow the Leafs to get something from his departure.

 

[Superstar]

It wasn't scorched earth, but Pitt moved some bodies out last year - Bunting (and then Schenn), Beauvillier, Marcus Pettersson, O'Conner, Cody Glass, etc. I think they are moving into that direction of rebuilding or doing a strip down + retool. Either way, I don't think Marner fits their program.

Teams that are good at negotiating don't have to worry about a UFA Marner overpay changing the salary profile of their roster.

It's been a merry-go-round experiment in Pittsburg by Dubas since he got there...he signed Andreas Johnsson and got Rielly Smith, and that didn't work out...he could be clearing the decks for this summer...if he really wanted to make some major changes, he would have moved on from Crosby, Malkin and Letang...I think he's holding out hope that he might land some big fishes in free agency this July to make another run this coming season...Dubas has been talking about time and time again that it's up to him to fill around the margins to surround the core, and the core of Crosby, Malkin and Letang are still there (I could include Karlsson also)...a shrewd and prudent GM wouldn't be massively overpaying Marner...it will be an interesting July, let's see what happens.

 

[BlueForever75]

We know who marner is.

We also know who Matthews is.

Matthews is tied for 5th. all time goal scorers on the Leafs with George Armstrong, Steve Thomas and William Nylander for playoffs goals.

26 goals each.

Nylander for the most part has played with a top Center, Tavares in the playoffs.
Matthews for the most part has played with an all-star Right Winger, marner.

We hear complaints about Tavares speed and decline, but he did score 38 goals this year.
Matthews is frequently "not healthy", and that was the case again this year. Scoring 3 goals in 13 playoffs games, compared to Nylanders' 6.

Is it a stretch to suggest, both Nylander (leading scorer) and marner (2nd. leading scorer) might have accomplished more with better/healthier linemates?

Look a the chance assists marner generated ... highest there, but we can speculate they were chance assists to Matthews?

Nylander and Matthews chance assists are about the same, but one is a center one is a winger. One passes to an all-star linemate, the other passes to an older, previous all-star linemate.

So yes, marner has better linemates than Nylander, but one of them was once again, playing injured.

We should be more concerned about Matthews than marner or Nylander.

That Nylander is tied with Matthews in career playoffs goals, when Matthews is a 3 time Rocket winner indicates he isn't able to fight through heavier playoffs coverage. Keep in mind half the games are played at home, so the Leafs coach determines who Matthews starts against. We've seen in previous playoffs he can go cold for stretches, like Nylander did against the Panthers. But Nylander isn't a 3 time Rocket winner, expectations should be much higher for Matthews to finish off those chances created by marner, than Nylander on those chances created by Tavares.

Sure, marner may not excel in heavier coverage, but he's undersized and relies on guile, not strength, whereas 6'3", 217 lb. Matthews should be able to stand up to the coverage.

Bringing back marner would not be the end of the franchise, but perhaps there has to be a change with who he plays with once the real season begins?

So your saying Marner can drive his own line? I don't think he can, as has been proven with Nylander. Without Matthews or Tavares as running mates for those 2, scoring and chances are at a minimum.

If that was the case, that they can drive their own lines. Nylander would have already been our second line center, there wouldn't have been a need to go out and spend a 1st rounder on Laughton. Hypothetically with the personnel we had this playoffs, with what you are saying...... this lineup would have outscored the lineup they iced:

Knies-Matthews-Domi
Patches-Nylander-Robertson
McMann-Tavares-Marner
Lorentz-Laughton-Jarnkrok

You may be right, but I highly doubt it.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I feel there is enough of a whisper campaign going on this week that indicates Marner isn’t an automatic exit and all this will he leave storyline is feeding the inevitable hometown overpay. End of the day. That promise of 2017 may not be flushed down the toilet just yet.

I feel like the Leafs aren't clever enough for this

 

[Stephen]

Nick Kypreos: The Leafs have undervalued Mitch Marner for years. They’ll pay the price when he leaves

It often seemed like Mike Babcock was trying to sabotage his development. And the team lowballed him at contract time. Still, he was the fastest to reach 700 points in

www.thestar.com

So if people wonder why I like this player so much, it’s because of what he needlessly had to endure early in his NHL career. He’s the underdog who overachieved.

The poor treatment gave Marner the determination to fight for his second contract in 2019 when the Leafs made a catastrophic error in judgment by underestimating his production and value. The offer of $6 million (U.S.) a year for the maximum eight years was undervalued for his point production, so it was easily rejected, and his team chose to wait for Auston Matthews, also due for a bridge deal, to re-sign first.

But it was the John Tavares free-agent contract — the seven-year, $77-million megadeal negotiated by former general manager Kyle Dubas — that caused the team’s salary-cap chaos and raised the price for those that followed: first Matthews, then Marner. That put the cap balance out of whack and the Leafs have never recovered.

As we are all painfully aware, the miscalculation to not bump the offer to $7.5 million or $8 million annually for Marner’s eight-year bridge deal (which many believe could have gotten the deal done, even before Matthews’ extension was finalized) was a miscalculation of epic proportions. Can you imagine how differently things may have looked today if it had come together? Marner would have been under contract for two more seasons with an incredible cap-friendly contract.

Instead, the green Dubas focused on the big splash, setting a new bar with Tavares at $11 million a season and Matthews several months later at $11.3 million and it instantaneously drove Marner’s asking price to almost double what they originally wanted to pay.

There’s no disputing the facts — the Leafs are 2-9 in playoff series in the Matthews-Marner era and have gone winless in the six Game 7s they’ve played (and let’s not forget the winner-take-all Game 5 against Columbus in 2020). The latest lopsided loss against the defending Stanley Cup champion Florida Panthers — as unfathomable as it was ugly — was going to get pinned on someone and Marner is as easy a target as any.

Leafs president Brendan Shanahan, with a contract set to expire and the New York Islanders reportedly knocking on his door, will be most remembered as the man who could not recognize that his Core Four was not the cohesive unit he wanted it to be. Management and players can speak all they want off the ice regarding how close and tight and caring they all are, but it’s not what we witnessed on the ice when it mattered most. At times they looked and acted as if every man was for himself.

This band so desperately needed to break up and not one of the decision makers saw it or chose to admit it — or was able to do anything about it before it was too late and contract movement anchors kicked in. And last summer when there was no firm indication Marner would sign an extension, the Leafs could have played hardball and tried to push their star into offering up a handful of destinations he would waive his no-trade clause for. Instead they chose to play it out, hope and pray their playoff demons would be exorcized and maybe, just maybe, he would stick around at their number.

These ongoing talking points are why Mitch Marner isn’t a sympathetic figure. At all.

Does the public know how any of the other 750 NHL players were hard coached, treated unfairly, doubted early in their careers and not given the same bonuses and left out in the cold by another player getting the golden child treatment? I’m sure it happens, it sucks. The hurt is real.

But to turn those talking points, pivot and say that’s why he demanded this, that’s why he’s going to walk out on the city, that’s why there are hurt feelings. Ummm, I dunno. You did squat to help the team win a cup in 9 years, you got your fair share of coddling by Dubas and Keefe, you’ve been paid like a top 5-10 player in the game for over half a decade and said yourself rhe market treats you like a god.

My conclusion is some people just like feeling resentful. Make a mountain out of every time they weren’t treated well and ignore all their blessings.

 

[ULF_55]

So your saying Marner can drive his own line? I don't think he can, as has been proven with Nylander. Without Matthews or Tavares as running mates for those 2, scoring and chances are at a minimum.

If that was the case, that they can drive their own lines. Nylander would have already been our second line center, there wouldn't have been a need to go out and spend a 1st rounder on Laughton. Hypothetically with the personnel we had this playoffs, with what you are saying...... this lineup would have outscored the lineup they iced:

Knies-Matthews-Domi
Patches-Nylander-Robertson
McMann-Tavares-Marner
Lorentz-Laughton-Jarnkrok

You may be right, but I highly doubt it.

I don't think NHL coaches are brave.

They don't like growing pains, and half a dozen games isn't an investment in the future.

And the Patches-Nylander-Robertson line ... Patches wasn't exactly healthy this year, and Robertson is a part-time, one trick pony.

How about finding a couple top 6 forwards to experiment with Nylander, rather than Patches and Robertson?

 

[Peasy]

These ongoing talking points are why Mitch Marner isn’t a sympathetic figure. At all.

Does the public know how any of the other 750 NHL players were hard coached, treated unfairly, doubted early in their careers and not given the same bonuses and left out in the cold by another player getting the golden child treatment? I’m sure it happens, it sucks. The hurt is real.

But to turn those talking points, pivot and say that’s why he demanded this, that’s why he’s going to walk out on the city, that’s why there are hurt feelings. Ummm, I dunno. You did squat to help the team win a cup in 9 years, you got your fair share of coddling by Dubas and Keefe, you’ve been paid like a top 5-10 player in the game for over half a decade and said yourself rhe market treats you like a god.

My conclusion is some people just like feeling resentful. Make a mountain out of every time they weren’t treated well and ignore all their blessings.

Its insane some people are trying to argue that acting like a child and crying about shit you didnt get years ago is the kind of person you want on your team.

Nylander got shafted in terms of first contract values compared to Matthews and Marner and you didnt hear a single peep about it.

 

[Stephen]

Its insane some people are trying to argue that acting like a child and crying about shit you didnt get years ago is the kind of person you want on your team.

Nylander got shafted in terms of first contract values compared to Matthews and Marner and you didnt hear a single peep about it.

Yep. And in context it’s not even like he was ever treated badly per se. He was just treated second best. Jealousy is a hell of a thing.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I feel there is enough of a whisper campaign going on this week that indicates Marner isn’t an automatic exit and all this will he leave storyline is feeding the inevitable hometown overpay. End of the day. That promise of 2017 may not be flushed down the toilet just yet.

If they re-sign him then it will be obvious that there is no accountability among the players for the playoff failures. Why would Marner about being better during the playoffs if the team bends over for him anyway? There has to be some accountability. Let him get the money from someone else. Toronto must move on. These guys will never win together, there is too much baggage, too much trauma. Their sticks will just get tighter and tighter in these big games.

 

[BlueForever75]

I don't think NHL coaches are brave.

They don't like growing pains, and half a dozen games isn't an investment in the future.

And the Patches-Nylander-Robertson line ... Patches wasn't exactly healthy this year, and Robertson is a part-time, one trick pony.

How about finding a couple top 6 forwards to experiment with Nylander, rather than Patches and Robertson?

So what you are saying is that Nylander and Marner cannot drive their own lines!!! Regardless of wingers they should be able to produce and make those around them that much better.

What you are saying is that our depth in the forward group is not built correctly to compliment our Core 4 outside of Knies. We are missing one more scoring type of winger.

So had we given Hyman his no trade clause like we like to hand out. Our lines would be as such:

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Knies-Tavares-Nylander
McMann-Domi-Patches\Robertson
Lorentz-Laughton-Jarnkrok
Kampf

Would that have a winning solution against Florida???

 

[Mess]

Dropping Marner into Pittsburgh would be funny experiment. Yeah you have Crosby’s twilight years but man, when it’s just Dubas and Marner again that’ll be interesting. I could see Dubas throwing money at this from his little revenge angle. He seems like an angry dude like that.

Marner couldn't have it any better than going back the same GM stupidity well again to expose a Clueless Dubas again.

Marner and his agent convinced Dubas to pay him $11,9 mil for 4 X RFA years that were suppose to be cost controllable years for an organization, and he paid him at UFA rate instead for all 6 years were only the last 2 were to be at free agency rate. He basically matched JT UFA contract rate.

There is a sucker born every minute, So now Dubas making Marner the highest paid player in the game should really not surprise any. I would even be willing to bet my own money on this happening.

 

[Stephen]

If they re-sign him then it will be obvious that there is no accountability among the players for the playoff failures. Why would Marner about being better during the playoffs if the team bends over for him anyway? There has to be some accountability. Let him get the money from someone else. Toronto must move on. These guys will never win together, there is too much baggage, too much trauma. Their sticks will just get tighter and tighter in these big games.

I hope we move on but I have my concerns that Rogers will keep it all together. Ultra conservative and adverse to any change.

 

[Stephen]

Marner couldn't have it any better than going back the same GM stupidity well again to expose a Clueless Dubas again.

Marner and his agent convinced Dubas to pay him $11,9 mil for 4 X RFA years that were suppose to be cost controllable years for an organization, and he paid him at UFA rate instead for all 6 years were only the last 2 were to be at free agency rate. He basically matched JT UFA contract rate.

There is a sucker born every minute, So now Dubas making Marner the highest paid player in the game should really not surprise any. I would even be willing to bet my own money on this happening.

From a contractual POV Marner’s only comparison has ever been Auston Matthews. You take a look at the salary landscape around the league and the range of over and under pays, unfair treatment, etc. Marner is treated like a golden child. But he doesn’t see it that way.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I hope we move on but I have my concerns that Rogers will keep it all together. Ultra conservative and adverse to any change.

Man, they have us over a barrel. I wish I could just cancel my Rogers Sportsnet subscription if they bring back the same guys but I can't because I like watching other sports like basketball and baseball.