Player Discussion Mitch Marner Part Infinity

[theTTC]

Truly good riddance. How the f*** are you ever gonna build any winning culture with a money vacuum like this.

Then he gets uppity and accusatory against his own team mates when these league minimum wage guys can't rise to slay the dragon for the useless Core Five.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Feel I need to drop this comment here as well since it doesn’t seemTo be talked about enough on here:

Honestly - the fact that no-show, Mr Pay me like Draisaitl, screams at his teammates and then goes out and berates them to the media is one of the most obscene things I’ve heard (hockey wise) lately. He had an A on his jersey? No wonder that core didn’t go anywhere

I don't think he would have berated them unprompted. It's because our ass captain made the quote and either Mitch had to disagree or he had to fall in line with his butt buddy.

 

[Mess]

Marner is gone. Listen to his comments from last night and this morning. He knows it. He’s been speaking in past tense the last two days.

The writing is all over the wall on his performance.

In games #4 - #7 in the series Marner recorded 1 assist and 3 shots on net.

A pending unrestricted free agent on July 1st, Mitch Marner was treated to boos in his final shifts of Game 7 after posting just one assist and 3 shots over the final four games of the series against the Florida Panthers.

Ahead of the trade deadline, however, it appeared the writing was on the wall for the 28-year-old after he was asked to waive his no-movement clause, which was seemingly confirmed just days ago by The Athletic's Chris Johnston.​

 

[Antropovsky]

I think a reset would be good for the Leafs... this core is not nearly good enough to even get past the 2nd round so all year its alot of unessary drama and toxicity for the rest of the team. Who would want to play here? Marner himself just brings ALOT of baggage and negativity with his constant standoffs with the media and the "we dont care what people think" us against the world talk. And of course any year his contracts are up is WAY to much of a distraction.

It relaxes my brain to think of just two 11+ million players on this roster and the rest to build it out vs
four at 11+ or
two at 13+ and one at 11+

 

[WilliamInLondon]

I woke up with the feeling that the two parties will realize this and that ultimately the mind numbing sameness of their playoff failures will be preferable to the unknowable chaos of change. Kind of like Vladdy Jr refusing to negotiate with the Jays only to sign his big deal a month later.

MLSE will realize they'll never get to a Florida level and win a cup, but they don't want to fall to a Detroit level and never sniff the playoffs. Marner will realize deep down he's not capable of winning, and this city is fine to live in for maybe 335 days of the year and he's going to be a hundred sheets richer.

I'm not saying I agree or like this, but this just makes the most sense in my head to me if I'm trying to objectively appraise both parties' options and interests.

I think we're looking at $12.5M-$13.5M x 8 AAV with a more limited NMC/NTC to give the Leafs flexibility in exchange for a higher AAV. Then we'll have a summertime of narratives trying to present some sort of change to the status quo, with Knies on 2-3 year bridge as the collateral damage and a few depth pieces moving around.

It doesn't sit right with me, but it makes the most sense in terms of optimal outcomes for both player and franchise. I also think of this through a probabilistic rather than deterministic lens. Maintaining what is effectively the status quo above gives the Leafs probably a 10% chance of going to the ECF and beyond, just as it was this season, and the one before it, and....

We're now going onto Year 10 of the "core", so at some point it's going to work out . The problem is that your bolded phrase is correct under the provisio that the status quo is not a 0% chance of success. It's about 10%.

Cutting Marner loose

• A) with no adequate UFA replacement drops success down to 2% and includes missing the playoffs

OR

• B) allows them to retool properly and give them a 15% or 20% chance of success.

From an MLSE corporate perpsective, if you're already profitable and have moderate success, why would you decrease your chances FIVEFOLD and run that risk with little upside versus just rolling the dice again and again. Same logic with Vladdy Jr's signing.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Are you confident Domi can even bring the leafs to the playoffs next season? I think we're forgetting how much of a struggle it is to make it. A lot of teams would trade shoes with us.

Domi has more game 7 goals then Marner has points lol.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Domi has more game 7 goals then Marner has points lol.

Domi had a pretty good series. I think you can make a case for him being more valuable than Marner against Florida

 

[Stephen]

I'm not saying I agree or like this, but this just makes the most sense in my head to me if I'm trying to objectively appraise both parties' options and interests.

I think we're looking at $12.5M-$13.5M x 8 AAV with a more limited NMC/NTC to give the Leafs flexibility in exchange for a higher AAV. Then we'll have a summertime of narratives trying to present some sort of change to the status quo, with Knies on 2-3 year bridge as the collateral damage and a few depth pieces moving around.

It doesn't sit right with me, but it makes the most sense in terms of optimal outcomes for both player and franchise. I also think of this through a probabilistic rather than deterministic lens. Maintaining what is effectively the status quo above gives the Leafs probably a 10% chance of going to the ECF and beyond, just as it was this season, and the one before it, and....

We're now going onto Year 10 of the "core", so at some point it's going to work out . The problem is that your bolded phrase is correct under the provisio that the status quo is not a 0% chance of success. It's about 10%.

Cutting Marner loose

• A) with no adequate UFA replacement drops success down to 2% and includes missing the playoffs

OR

• B) allows them to retool properly and give them a 15% or 20% chance of success.

From an MLSE corporate perpsective, if you're already profitable and have moderate success, why would you decrease your chances FIVEFOLD and run that risk with little upside versus just rolling the dice again and again. Same logic with Vladdy Jr's signing.

Yeah, that's my assessment of the situation as well. The long term issue is damage to the brand and complete market apathy, but the way Toronto rebounds every September and October I think they have it under control.

From a hockey POV, I could see them staying course because they don't control their next 3 first round picks. So if you were to pull the pin on Marner, realize Auston Matthews career is on its last legs and the team goes in the ditch, you're handing over some goodies to Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia. Although I think Chicago is top 10 protected, Boston's is top 5 protected and Philadelphia's is top 10 protected.

 

[thewave]

Then he gets uppity and accusatory against his own team mates when these league minimum wage guys can't rise to slay the dragon for the useless Core Five.

It's over now. Good riddance. Should have been dealt for Rantanen or a sign and trade for the extra year but he seems too about himself and offering up false platitudes.

Never thought we would win with him. I argued his selection back at the draft and never really waivered much on my position on him or Dubas.

 

[thewave]

I'm not saying I agree or like this, but this just makes the most sense in my head to me if I'm trying to objectively appraise both parties' options and interests.

I think we're looking at $12.5M-$13.5M x 8 AAV with a more limited NMC/NTC to give the Leafs flexibility in exchange for a higher AAV. Then we'll have a summertime of narratives trying to present some sort of change to the status quo, with Knies on 2-3 year bridge as the collateral damage and a few depth pieces moving around.

It doesn't sit right with me, but it makes the most sense in terms of optimal outcomes for both player and franchise. I also think of this through a probabilistic rather than deterministic lens. Maintaining what is effectively the status quo above gives the Leafs probably a 10% chance of going to the ECF and beyond, just as it was this season, and the one before it, and....

We're now going onto Year 10 of the "core", so at some point it's going to work out . The problem is that your bolded phrase is correct under the provisio that the status quo is not a 0% chance of success. It's about 10%.

Cutting Marner loose

• A) with no adequate UFA replacement drops success down to 2% and includes missing the playoffs

OR

• B) allows them to retool properly and give them a 15% or 20% chance of success.

From an MLSE corporate perpsective, if you're already profitable and have moderate success, why would you decrease your chances FIVEFOLD and run that risk with little upside versus just rolling the dice again and again. Same logic with Vladdy Jr's signing.

I think a healthy Matthews with a more physical scoring winger that can forecheck will actually increase our odds of doing better next year.

+11m + 5-6m for JT contract + cap going up puts us in a prime position to improve.

Marner had negative net effectiveness on all playoffs to me regardless his stats. He isn't a good playoff player, ever.

 

[Sundinisagod]

And you find that weird.

It was mentioned a few days ago, can't remember where. I'm also not taking it seriously but then again, you never know. 13.5 has been bandied about and his last contract was 2 million more per year then I was expecting so ... you just never know.

So probably speculation, but on the other hand, I'll think most fans are focusing where the cap will be next season while the players and agents are factoring where it will be over the course of the contract...so you could see signings where the cap percentages at time of signing are much higher than expected, or you could see players wanting short term deals ala Matthews.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

Yeah, that's my assessment of the situation as well. The long term issue is damage to the brand and complete market apathy, but the way Toronto rebounds every September and October I think they have it under control.

From a hockey POV, I could see them staying course because they don't control their next 3 first round picks. So if you were to pull the pin on Marner, realize Auston Matthews career is on its last legs and the team goes in the ditch, you're handing over some goodies to Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia. Although I think Chicago is top 10 protected, Boston's is top 5 protected and Philadelphia's is top 10 protected.

Agree. Not to be cynical, but just having worked in big corporations like MLSE in the past, in which these discussions do happen all the time about product and services. More reasons about why the above makes sense:

• The narrative will be really tough to spin this summer...but they've done it in the past, and people generally come around to it when there's even a modicum of success (hell, we drank the kool aid too)

• The Blue Jays, and more importantly, the Raptors, are both terrible, so there's little risk of a substitution effect if the Leafs continue the treadmill. But similarly, because the Raptors are terrible, it serves MLSE's best interests to field a competitive Leafs team with a much higher floor and lower ceiling. Basically, an annual playoff team versus rebuilding for 5+ seasons to compile a true contender

• The fans are b*tching and moaning - and rightfully so (me too!). Even the ones clamoring for a full rebuild, I think MLSE calls our bluff and says that we don't have the stomach for it - and they're right. It's not like this team made the ECF twice and then aged/maxed out whereby a rebuild is justified. We basically as fans have the worst case of blue b***s right now, so we keep going back to the same well, asking the girl out on a date for the tenth time just because she smiled or DM'ed us yesterday. It's like we need the team to achieve greater success with equally catastrophic failure before we can truly move on.

 

[Menzinger]

The fact the team was willing to pay him 13.5 doesn't exactly install a sense of confidence in them handling this situation properly.....

 

[AvroArrow]

Mitch Marner is rightfully the most hated Leaf of all time. He was supposed to be the hometown hero, local kid playing for his childhood team

1) f***ed the team in negotiations

2) Entitled/pissy attitude, complete lack of accountability

3) Refuses to show up in big games when it matters

4) Soft, doesn't have any heart or guts and refuses to dig in and play with intensity

5) Refused to sign an extension when management offered multiple deals

6) Refused to waive his NMC on top of not re-signing, as we all know we could have had Rantanen right now

7) Routinely one of the worst players on the ice in every single post-season

8) Only cares about getting paid, doesn't want to compete

I hope we never have to see this guy in a Leafs jersey again and that he gets run out of town finally. Had the chance to immortalize his family name, instead people will be cursing it out and spitting on it

I have never in my life been more disgusted with a single player. He does not deserve another opportunity to wear this teams sweater. Completely disrespected the organization, the city, the team, the fan base you name it.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

MLSE probably would want Mitch back. I doubt he wants to be here. He's completely miserable

 

[Stephen]

The fans are b*tching and moaning - and rightfully so (me too!). Even the ones clamoring for a full rebuild, I think MLSE calls our bluff and says that we don't have the stomach for it - and they're right. It's not like this team made the ECF twice and then aged/maxed out whereby a rebuild is justified. We basically as fans have the worst case of blue b***s right now, so we keep going back to the same well, asking the girl out on a date for the tenth time just because she smiled or DM'ed us yesterday. It's like we need the team to achieve greater success with equally catastrophic failure before we can truly move on.

I think the team could go nuclear and go full scorched earth rebuild and there would be catharsis in that and wide acceptance. But we don't control our next 3 firsts since they are all under some complicated trade protection. So I think that forces the team into a conservative let's just keep competing mode. Keep adding intelligently in free agency and see if 97 wants to ruin his career and come home to save us next summer.

 

[thewave]

Agree. Not to be cynical, but just having worked in big corporations like MLSE in the past, in which these discussions do happen all the time about product and services. More reasons about why the above makes sense:

• The narrative will be really tough to spin this summer...but they've done it in the past, and people generally come around to it when there's even a modicum of success (hell, we drank the kool aid too)

• The Blue Jays, and more importantly, the Raptors, are both terrible, so there's little risk of a substitution effect if the Leafs continue the treadmill. But similarly, because the Raptors are terrible, it serves MLSE's best interests to field a competitive Leafs team with a much higher floor and lower ceiling. Basically, an annual playoff team versus rebuilding for 5+ seasons to compile a true contender

• The fans are b*tching and moaning - and rightfully so (me too!). Even the ones clamoring for a full rebuild, I think MLSE calls our bluff and says that we don't have the stomach for it - and they're right. It's not like this team made the ECF twice and then aged/maxed out whereby a rebuild is justified. We basically as fans have the worst case of blue b***s right now, so we keep going back to the same well, asking the girl out on a date for the tenth time just because she smiled or DM'ed us yesterday. It's like we need the team to achieve greater success with equally catastrophic failure before we can truly move on.

There is no sound rationale for keeping Marner. He was booed off the ice. It's over.

 

[Menzinger]

Yeah, that's my assessment of the situation as well. The long term issue is damage to the brand and complete market apathy, but the way Toronto rebounds every September and October I think they have it under control.

From a hockey POV, I could see them staying course because they don't control their next 3 first round picks. So if you were to pull the pin on Marner, realize Auston Matthews career is on its last legs and the team goes in the ditch, you're handing over some goodies to Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia. Although I think Chicago is top 10 protected, Boston's is top 5 protected and Philadelphia's is top 10 protected.

Tre put himself in a bit of a bind with the tdl trades. You don't move 2/3 of the next 1st round picks if you're expecting a dramatic retool.

They'll probably circle back to Marner. Though the latest from Mirtle suggests the front office isn't happy so I assume the relationship has just continued to deteriorate with the player so maybe they're already looking beyond. Marner certainly seems to be racing towards oher offers on July 1st. Safe bet is he's gone one way or the other

 

[TonsofPuppies]

Mitch Marner is rightfully the most hated Leaf of all time. He was supposed to be the hometown hero, local kid playing for his childhood team

1) f***ed the team in negotiations

2) Entitled/pissy attitude, complete lack of accountability

3) Refuses to show up in big games when it matters

4) Soft, doesn't have any heart or guts and refuses to dig in and play with intensity

5) Refused to sign an extension when management offered multiple deals

6) Refused to waive his NMC on top of not re-signing, as we all know we could have had Rantanen right now

7) Routinely one of the worst players on the ice in every single post-season

8) Only cares about getting paid, doesn't want to compete

I hope we never have to see this guy in a Leafs jersey again and that he gets run out of town finally. Had the chance to immortalize his family name, instead people will be cursing it out and spitting on it

I have never in my life been more disgusted with a single player. He does not deserve another opportunity to wear this teams sweater. Completely disrespected the organization, the city, the team, the fan base you name it.

Gonna have to correct you just a little bit on this one. He didn't disrespect the organization. You can't disrespect the unrespectable. The organization disrespected themselves by caving to this clown's demands over and over and over. This organization has no self respect and thus, it's foolish to expect anyone else to, even their own players.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

There is no sound rationale for keeping Marner. He was booed off the ice. It's over.

haha, for the fans' and Marner's sake, I hope so as well. But I'm not shutting the chapter on this until Treliving and/or Marner literally say that they're moving on.

 

[Stephen]

Tre put himself in a bit of a bind with the tdl trades. You don't move 2/3 of the next 1st round picks if you're expecting a dramatic retool.

They'll probably circle back to Marner. Though the latest from Mirtle suggests the front office isn't happy so I assume the relationship has just continued to deteriorate with the player so maybe they're already looking beyond. Marner certainly seems to be racing towards oher offers on July 1st. Safe bet is he's gone one way or the other

Like I said the whole time, I preferred the stand pat approach. If they couldn't get by Ottawa without Carlo and Laughton, oh well!

I have a feeling like maybe Marner will come back. Too much corporate sense not to and Marner doesn't have the guts to actually leave.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

Tre put himself in a bit of a bind with the tdl trades. You don't move 2/3 of the next 1st round picks if you're expecting a dramatic retool.

They'll probably circle back to Marner. Though the latest from Mirtle suggests the front office isn't happy so I assume the relationship has just continued to deteriorate with the player so maybe they're already looking beyond. Marner certainly seems to be racing towards oher offers on July 1st. Safe bet is he's gone one way or the other

It could very well be that both parties knew that the only way a $13.5M x 8 AAV becomes palatable to the fans if the team made it to the ECF+, and those dreams died last night.

Makes sense on the TDL trades to align it to Matthews' contract. This is still a mid-seed playoff team for the next 3 years with a low probability of contention. I just hope they don't sign guys like Boeser, Granlund, Ekblad, etc. to long-term deals that exceed Matthews' contract because I'm not sure that it will materially move the needle for the squad.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Like I said the whole time, I preferred the stand pat approach. If they couldn't get by Ottawa without Carlo and Laughton, oh well!

I have a feeling like maybe Marner will come back. Too much corporate sense not to and Marner doesn't have the guts to actually leave.

Hard to rule anything out with this circus being what it is, seems highly unlikely though. I wonder what it would take to persuade him to stay, 5x14 with full NMC (the NMC is a given obviously)?

 

[theTTC]

It's over now. Good riddance. Should have been dealt for Rantanen or a sign and trade for the extra year but he seems too about himself and offering up false platitudes.

Never thought we would win with him. I argued his selection back at the draft and never really waivered much on my position on him or Dubas.

Mitch plays amazing during regular season to get us into the playoffs comfortably. Gotta have that.

Then he vanishes during the playoffs and his bizarre vibes adversely affect his team mates. Can't have that.

This is the conundrum.

 

[francis246]

Probably so I do not give that number much thought. The Leafs offering $13.5m was news to me. I thought their ceiling was $13m.

I’m not overly surprised. If we take off our emotional rage glasses for a second and think from a management perspective, to them he’s a valuable asset and you don’t want that to walk for free.

I think they also recognize what many of us are scared to admit. While replacing Marner isn’t going to be some impossible task, it’s not going to be easy, it’ll be a tall task. It’s an unknown and I don’t know how many managers around the league are completely comfortable working in the unknown or uncertainty.