Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Part 3758391849

[Anthrax442]

The Columbus series technically wasn't playoffs, right?

 

[francis246]

The Columbus series technically wasn't playoffs, right?

Correct technically it was a play in and not considered a playoff series

 

[mike14]

Correct technically it was a play in and not considered a playoff series

Far be it from me to tell Canadians how to Canada, but I'm pretty sure the NHL considers those series to be 'playoffs' for the purpose of statistics. Otherwise you'd need to subtract 5 games and 6 points from Matthews career totals

 

[Nineteen67]

Far be it from me to tell Canadians how to Canada, but I'm pretty sure the NHL considers those series to be 'playoffs' for the purpose of statistics. Otherwise you'd need to subtract 5 games and 6 points from Matthews career totals

Stats wise is considered the playoffs but in reality it was in lieu of the playoff races. The Leafs were in a fight for a spot that year and we don’t know if they would have made it. The play in confirmed they weren’t good enough that year. Most Leafs fans believe they missed the playoffs.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Stats wise is considered the playoffs but in reality it was in lieu of the playoff races. The Leafs were in a fight for a spot that year and we don’t know if they would have made it. The play in confirmed they weren’t good enough that year. Most Leafs fans believe they missed the playoffs.

I don't know about that. Source?

 

[seventieslord]

Including this one it's been nine seasons for one thing.

Also unless the screen shot last game was wrong they are now 1-12 in deciding games. Which adds up to thirteen and not sixteen. I can't be bothered to double check Matthews stats in clinchers but I know it's not good.

So even with a couple mistakes Simmons message unfortunately still resonates as true.

The Columbus series technically wasn't playoffs, right?

Far be it from me to tell Canadians how to Canada, but I'm pretty sure the NHL considers those series to be 'playoffs' for the purpose of statistics. Otherwise you'd need to subtract 5 games and 6 points from Matthews career totals

Stats wise is considered the playoffs but in reality it was in lieu of the playoff races. The Leafs were in a fight for a spot that year and we don’t know if they would have made it. The play in confirmed they weren’t good enough that year. Most Leafs fans believe they missed the playoffs.

No. Leafs were losing the series 2-1. Game 4 was not an opportunity for the leafs to eliminate an opponent, it was an opportunity for the opponent to eliminate them. Steve Simmons is not the only one who has forgotten this I guess.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

No. Leafs were losing the series 2-1. Game 4 was not an opportunity for the leafs to eliminate an opponent, it was an opportunity for the opponent to eliminate them. Steve Simmons is not the only one who has forgotten this I guess.

Is that the game they scored four goals in three minutes or whatever it was?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Is that the game they scored four goals in three minutes or whatever it was?

Not sure if it was 4 or 5, they were all unassisted goals scored by Marner though.

 

[seventieslord]

Is that the game they scored four goals in three minutes or whatever it was?

Yes, that's right. they were like 3 minutes away from losing a series 3-1 to columbus with the deciding game being yet another one of those games where they couldn't generate shit and looked out of it right from the start. (2019 game 7, 2021 game 7, 2022 game 7...). they only scored three goals due to luck and score/flurry effects, they were otherwise dead in the water already. Great story but we had every reason to be pissed about their 55 minute performance.

More importantly, this game does not count as an example of Matthews scoring three points in a game with a chance to eliminate Columbus. Jackets were never on the ropes - Leafs were. So as wrong as Simmons is, it makes his point stronger.

Leafs have always had a way of winning games they are desperate to win, and losing games where the other team is desperate. then when both teams are desperate... they also lose.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Most coaches try hard to match their top offensive line against the Tavares line , willing to trade chances . It usually works .
Then they try and play their top checking line against Mathews . Only exception was Tampa and a reason the Leafs won when they tried to play Kuch head to head against Mathews .
More importantly is who's the top D being matched up against .

I guess you missed the point. Apparently whether the Matthews line is playing against the opposition top offensive line or their checking line, they always play against the 'toughest', while the Tavares line, which by default gets the other one, is always playing against 'lesser' ones.

 

[studebaker17]

I guess you missed the point. Apparently whether the Matthews line is playing against the opposition top offensive line or their checking line, they always play against the 'toughest', while the Tavares line, which by default gets the other one, is always playing against 'lesser' ones.

Yeah , i get it . Just spins on both sides trying to make "their guys " sound better .

 

[notDatsyuk]

Stats wise is considered the playoffs but in reality it was in lieu of the playoff races. The Leafs were in a fight for a spot that year and we don’t know if they would have made it. The play in confirmed they weren’t good enough that year. Most Leafs fans believe they missed the playoffs.

It seems that the series is considered playoffs/not playoffs mainly depending on whether the stats support your current argument or not. I've seen posters argue both ways depending on the topic.

 

[francis246]

Far be it from me to tell Canadians how to Canada, but I'm pretty sure the NHL considers those series to be 'playoffs' for the purpose of statistics. Otherwise you'd need to subtract 5 games and 6 points from Matthews career totals

I think statistically for players it counted but in the record books it wasn’t counted as an official NHL playoff series. It was a play in

EDIT* I double checked on NHL.com and it counts! So I stand corrected it is considered apart of the post season and therefore considered a series!

 

[Antropovsky]

Is that the game they scored four goals in three minutes or whatever it was?

Yep... down 3-0. Matthews set up goals 2-3 and scored the gwg.

Marners contribution...secondary assist on a shot from the perimeter.

I rag on Marner but all highlights are him making perimeter plays, nothing in critical areas. Matthews is setting up goals and scoring and in front of the net.

In all seriousness... watch the highlights of that game. Marners contribution to the comeback was a perimeter shot with 3 players in front of the net. Which resulted in a secondary assist.

He them gave the puck away on the next shift...nearly allowed the dagger empty net goal but fortunately Columbus missed.

He then nearly gets in Matthews way on the game tying goal.

When does Marners incredible playmaking come into play? Matthews literally set up goals 2-3...yes both of them...by the shoot first center wbo shouldnt be judged on primary assists.

Tavares.set up the gwg in OT.

It was Nylander who scored the first goal in the goalies crease.

How much more dangerous would Matthews line be if Marner went to the dirty areas or battled and showed heart and determination? Marner wants to continually rotate with the defender, because he wants to be on the blueline. You dont see Knies doing it all the time or any other winger. Then people praise Marner for covering D.... hes not covering hes the one initiating the switch. Why do we want our defensive d attacking down low instead of our 11 million dollar winger? We dont, Marner wants to because he doesnt want to battle.

Marner is very predictable... jump the zone fishing for breakaways, play high in the zone... try to shoot for rebounds or screened goals from the point, or if Knies and Matthews are in a board battle, sneak down from the point and try to get set up for a slot shot. Must he nice! Meanwhile, Matthews...as the center has to battle in the O zone, cover down low on O zone (hard to jump the zone) AND he has to battle in the D zone. For some reason though... Knis is always in front od the net and in corners, rarely high in the zone, but also plays wing.

Heres the comeback:

 

[Dekes For Days]

Wasn't there a stat that Marner shoots 10 feet further on average in the playoffs?

No. There was a stat that Marner averaged a further shot distance in one playoff because he scored a couple times off a set play from the point that Vasilevsky was weak to, and he had a shot connect from center ice to skew the average, and then one particular poster misused that occurrence to create a narrative that has perpetuated.

The Columbus series technically wasn't playoffs, right?

It was playoffs. The NHL was very clear.

 

[Antropovsky]

No. There was a stat that Marner averaged a further shot distance in one playoff because he scored a couple times off a set play from the point that Vasilevsky was weak to, and he had a shot connect from center ice to skew the average, and then one particular poster misused that occurrence to create a narrative that has perpetuated.

Lol it was all Marners 5v5 shot attempts. The writer compared his stats equally to Nylander, Tavares and Matthews. Apples to apples. How can that be cherry picked? Lo and behold, Marners was substantially worse compared ro the others.

Also..Mcdavid said it himself "Marner plays offense high in the zone"

What more evidence do you need?

Is Mcdavid part of the Marner conspiracy?

 

[Aashir]

Well this is the game where that voodoo stat of marner becoming a 4th liner begins

It would be really funny if he had 3 point game in a 3-1 win lol.

 

[ACC1224]

Well this is the game where that voodoo stat of marner becoming a 4th liner begins

It would be really funny if he had 3 point game in a 3-1 win lol.

It won't matter

 

[Dekes For Days]

Lol it was all Marners 5v5 shot attempts. The writer compared his stats equally to Nylander, Tavares and Matthews. Apples to apples. How can that be cherry picked? Lo and behold, Marners was substantially worse compared ro the others. Also..Mcdavid said it himself "Marner plays offense high in the zone"

It wasn't even shot attempts. It was shots. Which means a handful of data points where averages are easily skewed.

You isolated an irrelevant microstat in a tiny sample, ignored that that microstat for Marner was being skewed by some nothing shot from neutral ice and a set play that produced multiple goals, and then compared him to goalscorers he helped improve the stats of, based on this shot-based microstat that had little to do with how Marner provides offensive impact in the first place, in order to create a false narrative to bash him.

McDavid said a lot of things that you conveniently left out, and what you don't seem to realize is that being able to generate offense from higher areas of the offensive zone is not a bad thing.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well this is the game where that voodoo stat of marner becoming a 4th liner begins

What's a voodoo stat?

It would be really funny if he had 3 point game in a 3-1 win lol.

Regardless if he has 6 points or 0 points and assists on several Ottawa goals, the smart thing to do is to keep your emotions in check and wait until the playoffs are over before handing out report cards. I know the playoffs are exciting and everything but still, knee jerk reactions are never intelligent and one game is just one game no matter what happens.

 

[Aashir]

What's a voodoo stat?

It’s not an actual thing lol, just the stats from game 1-4 and 5-7 are soooo different that it’s gotta be cursed Lool. Just poking some fun

Regardless if he has 6 points or 0 points and assists on several Ottawa goals, the smart thing to do is to keep your emotions in check and wait until the playoffs are over before handing out report cards. I know the playoffs are exciting and everything but still, knee jerk reactions are never intelligent and one game is just one game no matter what happens.

Maybe, but I feel like this is a bit of a double standard. Let’s say we lose and Marner has 0 points, people are going to declare him ass and a bum based off the past + this one game. If we win and he had no points people will just say he was useless and we didn’t really need him and he was invisible.

Marner having some amount of points and helping win a series is going to be huge. He still should deserve some praise for it, just like how any player should when they help win a game and series. He is a guy who historically has struggled in these times, so showing up big time here would be amazing, regardless of what happens in the future.

 

[hullsy47]

I'd let Marner go if he asks too much still. If Kaprizov/McDavid hit UFA next summer, that's who you target

Ted rogers wants mcdavid

 

[Gary Nylund]

It’s not an actual thing lol, just the stats from game 1-4 and 5-7 are soooo different that it’s gotta be cursed Lool. Just poking some fun

Keeping that sense of humour in tune is always a good idea!

Maybe, but I feel like this is a bit of a double standard. Let’s say we lose and Marner has 0 points, people are going to declare him ass and a bum based off the past + this one game. If we win and he had no points people will just say he was useless and we didn’t really need him and he was invisible.

Same goes for people looking for a reason to hype him, IMHO the praise for him has been pretty over the top since November (and I mean November like maybe 5 years ago).

Marner having some amount of points and helping win a series is going to be huge. He still should deserve some praise for it, just like how any player should when they help win a game and series. He is a guy who historically has struggled in these times, so showing up big time here would be amazing, regardless of what happens in the future.

Every player deserves some praise when they play well. He's been good so far, hopefully he keeps it up for another 7 weeks or so.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ted rogers wants mcdavid

Who doesn't?

 

[arso40]

Yep... down 3-0. Matthews set up goals 2-3 and scored the gwg.

Marners contribution...secondary assist on a shot from the perimeter.

I rag on Marner but all highlights are him making perimeter plays, nothing in critical areas. Matthews is setting up goals and scoring and in front of the net.

In all seriousness... watch the highlights of that game. Marners contribution to the comeback was a perimeter shot with 3 players in front of the net. Which resulted in a secondary assist.

He them gave the puck away on the next shift...nearly allowed the dagger empty net goal but fortunately Columbus missed.

He then nearly gets in Matthews way on the game tying goal.

When does Marners incredible playmaking come into play? Matthews literally set up goals 2-3...yes both of them...by the shoot first center wbo shouldnt be judged on primary assists.

Tavares.set up the gwg in OT.

It was Nylander who scored the first goal in the goalies crease.

How much more dangerous would Matthews line be if Marner went to the dirty areas or battled and showed heart and determination? Marner wants to continually rotate with the defender, because he wants to be on the blueline. You dont see Knies doing it all the time or any other winger. Then people praise Marner for covering D.... hes not covering hes the one initiating the switch. Why do we want our defensive d attacking down low instead of our 11 million dollar winger? We dont, Marner wants to because he doesnt want to battle.

Marner is very predictable... jump the zone fishing for breakaways, play high in the zone... try to shoot for rebounds or screened goals from the point, or if Knies and Matthews are in a board battle, sneak down from the point and try to get set up for a slot shot. Must he nice! Meanwhile, Matthews...as the center has to battle in the O zone, cover down low on O zone (hard to jump the zone) AND he has to battle in the D zone. For some reason though... Knis is always in front od the net and in corners, rarely high in the zone, but also plays wing.

Heres the comeback:

That was amazing