Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Part 3758391849

[francis246]

Reinhart a soft player? Verhaeghe isnt even a soft player but why would you even mention reinhart that’s crazy work

This is Sam Reinhart in a nutshell. He’s a skilled guy, he’s never been a tough guy.

The craziest thing is there are so many players that have crazier personalities than Marner and say the most outlandish stuff but because it’s a smaller market you never hear about. All the stuff people hate about Marner about he smiles too much or he plays video games or whatever other nonsense can be applied to so many players around the league.

Could you imagine this thread if Marner was on mic, saying something similar? We’d have 17 pages about it.

 

[Zybalto]

This is the NHL where not many soft, skilled, perimeter players are not difference makers in the playoffs. See Gudreau (RIP), Panarin, Pettersson, Marner. Off topic but Patches for Robertson made a huge difference to our 3rd line.

If they lose to the Panthers, at what point do you say, we cannot pay this core and surround them with the players needed to win a SC, if that is the goal?

All those guys plus others in the playoffs the last 4 years prorated to an 82 game season:

Panarin:
Goals: 21
Points: 63
+/-: Minus 18

Pettersson:
Goals: 6
Points: 38
+/-: Even

Gaudreau:
Goals: 21
Points: 96
+/-: Minus 20

Kucherov:
Goals: 21
Points: 93
+/-: Plus 14

Point:
Goals: 26
Points: 56
+/-: Minus 38

Pastrnak:
Goals: 36
Points: 58
+/-: Minus 3

Tkachuk:
Goals: 33
Points: 83
+/-: Plus 10

Reinhart:
Goals: 32
Points: 52
+/-: Minus 6

Barkov:
Goals: 22
Points: 69
+/-: Plus 11

Nylander:
Goals: 36
Points: 79
+/-: Minus 3

Matthews:
Goals: 35
Points: 91
+/-: Plus 28

Tavares:
Goals: 29
Points: 59
+/-: Minus 3

Marner:
Goals: 21
Points: 91
+/-: Plus 44

Kinda fun looking all these up. Scoring generally goes way down in the playoffs lately, thats for sure. (unless your McDrai lol). some smaller sample sizes used for guys like Pettersson but it is what it is.

Just kinda gives you an idea of how other teams stars that have had much better depth performance and elite goaltending have been doing (leading to team success).

You are right that Panarin and Pettersson have been trash and partly right on Jonny as despite maintaining being a production machine, the guy was a sieve defensively in the playoffs.

Jezzus on Point's +/- numbers too the last 4 years.

Lets just hope Marner can maintain this pace later in series (the main strike against him). Other than that, he's easily been one of the best playoff wingers in the league. The entire core 4 dont look half bad here actually and considering their team is .500 over this stretch, I'd say other things outside of them have gone wrong.....very wrong.

 

[ToneDog]

It would still mean they are not good enough. What makes you think next year they will win? Or the year after? Florida is not going away any time soon. Nobody is getting younger either, especially the D.

We outwaited the Bruins to fall off the cliff. Now we outwait the Panthers. Unfortunately while we wait out teams in our division to take as step back, other teams will gain and pass us (Washington). Tre needs to keep bringing in his type of players if they lose to Florida. A simple change of an old Patches for Robbie turned the 3rd line around last game. We need to be bigger and heavier in our top 6 IMO. Playing 5 soft players most of the night against most of the league works during the regular season. Not in the playoffs against a heavy team like Florida. We will find out what this core is really made of in a week or two if they play Florida. They match up much better with Tampa but they are not an easy out.

 

[IPS]

All those guys plus others in the playoffs the last 4 years prorated to an 82 game season:

Panarin:
Goals: 21
Points: 63
+/-: Minus 18

Pettersson:
Goals: 6
Points: 38
+/-: Even

Gaudreau:
Goals: 21
Points: 96
+/-: Minus 20

Kucherov:
Goals: 21
Points: 93
+/-: Plus 14

Point:
Goals: 26
Points: 56
+/-: Minus 38

Pastrnak:
Goals: 36
Points: 58
+/-: Minus 3

Tkachuk:
Goals: 33
Points: 83
+/-: Plus 10

Reinhart:
Goals: 32
Points: 52
+/-: Minus 6

Barkov:
Goals: 22
Points: 69
+/-: Plus 11

Nylander:
Goals: 36
Points: 79
+/-: Minus 3

Matthews:
Goals: 35
Points: 91
+/-: Plus 28

Tavares:
Goals: 29
Points: 59
+/-: Minus 3

Marner:
Goals: 21
Points: 91
+/-: Plus 44

Kinda fun looking all these up. Scoring generally goes way down in the playoffs lately, thats for sure. (unless your McDrai lol). some smaller sample sizes used for guys like Pettersson but it is what it is.

Just kinda gives you an idea of how other teams stars that have had much better depth performance and elite goaltending have been doing (leading to team success).

You are right that Panarin and Pettersson have been trash and partly right on Jonny as despite maintaining being a production machine, the guy was a sieve defensively in the playoffs.

Jezzus on Point's +/- numbers too the last 4 years.

Lets just hope Marner can maintain this pace later in series (the main strike against him). Other than that, he's easily been one of the best playoff wingers in the league. The entire core 4 dont look half bad here actually and considering their team is .500 over this stretch, I'd say other things outside of them have gone wrong.....very wrong.

Bit of good perspective there no doubt. Pastrnak is the one that seems to have fallen the furthest in that sample size relative to what he's produced in the regular season.

 

[Zybalto]

Bit of good perspective there no doubt. Pastrnak is the one that seems to have fallen the furthest in that sample size relative to what he's produced in the regular season.

Yea, team narrative certainly takes over in the playoffs too.

McDavid's numbers in the playoffs?

Goals: 42
Points: 149
+/-: Plus 43

Theres no one even close lol.

 

[keonsbitterness]

If they lose to the Panthers, at what point do you say, we cannot pay this core and surround them with the players needed to win a SC, if that is the goal?

If Marner intends to stay, I expect management to ride this core as long as they remain a playoff team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If Marner intends to stay, I expect management to ride this core as long as they remain a playoff team.

I'm sure that's what they'll do even if Marner leaves and with all the NMC's, it's not like they have much choice anyway.

 

[Aashir]

Yea, team narrative certainly takes over in the playoffs too.

McDavid's numbers in the playoffs?

Goals: 42
Points: 149
+/-: Plus 43

Theres no one even close lol.

Mcdavid is a player you can’t compare to

Kucherov and Mack come close in the RS and maybe even surpass him in the RS, but I can confidently say they aren’t producing like mcdavid

Swap Mcdavid and Mack and Colorado probably has more than 1 cup IMO, and Mack’s been a playoff beast and that’s how highly I see mcdavid.

Kucherov and Mcdavid swapped they probably still have 3 cups, honestly they could potentially have more (at least finals run).

 

[Antropovsky]

Yea, team narrative certainly takes over in the playoffs too.

McDavid's numbers in the playoffs?

Goals: 42
Points: 149
+/-: Plus 43

Theres no one even close lol.

Marner has 2 5v5 shots in 3 games vs a bottom two team in this year's playoffs. One on a breakaway on a set jump the zone play. Certainly doesn't scream elite 12 million dollar forward.

Both Marners 5v5 points are on set plays. Because his skillset limits spontaneous offense.

He still isn't creating much 5v5. Certainly not like an elite player does, and not one that gets almost no shots and apparently shouldn't be judged on goals or shots because of incredible playmaking. He's also, not playing in any of the dirty areas as per usual.

This amount of offense vs a weak team, it will be interesting to see him vs a good team.

It would be one thing if he signed for 12 million x 8 and wasn't so dramatic and demanding.

But it's not enough to be a top paid NHL player, he needs a short term contract so can be more greedy. And we can do this all over again for a 3rd time in a few years.

He hasn't earned that here... not last time either (which he learned when nobody would give it to him even as an offersheet).

 

[therealkoho]

Imagine Marner walks only to be replaced by McDavid next summer

That is a massive upgrade

If McDavid decides to bring the show back to the big smoke I'm sure Marners presence or absence might play into it.

 

[francis246]

It would still mean they are not good enough. What makes you think next year they will win? Or the year after? Florida is not going away any time soon. Nobody is getting younger either, especially the D.

Florida isn’t going to have Bobrovsky forever, at some point his age is gonna catch up to him. They are also gonna lose Ekblad and maybe others.

Florida also isn’t some unbeatable team. This years leafs could take down the panthers.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I'm sure that's what they'll do even if Marner leaves and with all the NMC's, it's not like they have much choice anyway.

For sure, but it would be easier to get guys to waive to join a playoff team if the Leafs decline

 

[Zybalto]

Florida isn’t going to have Bobrovsky forever, at some point his age is gonna catch up to him. They are also gonna lose Ekblad and maybe others.

Florida also isn’t some unbeatable team. This years leafs could take down the panthers.

I just watched a shorthanded Tampa team dismantle them in their own barn and Tkachuk probably got himself suspended at the end of the game.

Thats anyones series.

 

[francis246]

I just watched a shorthanded Tampa team dismantle them in their own barn and Tkachuk probably got himself suspended at the end of the game.

Thats anyones series.

Exactly and I forget which game either game 1 or 2, but Tampa challenged a goal that put them on the PK which basically gave Florida then win. So had they not challenged that goal they probably keep it close

 

[Zybalto]

Exactly and I forget which game either game 1 or 2, but Tampa challenged a goal that put them on the PK which basically gave Florida then win. So had they not challenged that goal they probably keep it close

Seems to be a problem in these playoffs lol.

 

[Zybalto]

Marner has 2 5v5 shots in 3 games vs a bottom two team in this year's playoffs. One on a breakaway on a set jump the zone play. Certainly doesn't scream elite 12 million dollar forward.

Both Marners 5v5 points are on set plays. Because his skillset limits spontaneous offense.

He still isn't creating much 5v5. Certainly not like an elite player does, and not one that gets almost no shots and apparently shouldn't be judged on goals or shots because of incredible playmaking. He's also, not playing in any of the dirty areas as per usual.

This amount of offense vs a weak team, it will be interesting to see him vs a good team.

It would be one thing if he signed for 12 million x 8 and wasn't so dramatic and demanding.

But it's not enough to be a top paid NHL player, he needs a short term contract so can be more greedy. And we can do this all over again for a 3rd time in a few years.

He hasn't earned that here... not last time either (which he learned when nobody would give it to him even as an offersheet).

Your trying a little too hard on a guy that has been great all season.

I mean, Kucherov has 1 goal, 18 points 5v5 in 36 playoff games since the start of the 2022 playoffs. Marner has 6 goals and 16 points 5v5 in 28 games over the same stretch.

If you think that way about Marner, you must really think Kucherov is well below "elite" and certainly well below Marner.

Just sit back and enjoy the fun right now. There will be plenty of time later to pile on Marner after the Leafs win the cup.

 

[Antropovsky]

Your trying a little too hard on a guy that has been great all season.

I mean, Kucherov has 1 goal, 18 points 5v5 in 36 playoff games since the start of the 2022 playoffs. Marner has 6 goals and 16 points 5v5 in 28 games over the same stretch.

If you think that way about Marner, you must really think Kucherov is well below "elite" and certainly well below Marner.

Just sit back and enjoy the fun right now. There will be plenty of time later to pile on Marner after the Leafs win the cup.

I agree, Kucherov is a good measuring stick for Marner. Kucherov being an elite pass first winger.

Kucherov still generating 8 shots/60 in 2022 all the way to the finals. Kutcherov had over 6.75 shots/60 every playoff before 2022.

Marner is at 1.33 shots/60 vs a lousy Sens team. He had only 2.53 shots per/60 vs Boston last year. And 4.8/60 the playoffs before that.

Also not discussing how Kucherov is a much more gritty/combative player.

We will see vs a good opponent. 2 shots vs Senators, I'm wondering if he'd generate any shots vs Florida.

This isn't even factoring that Kucherov was coming off 3 consecutive final appearances, 2 cups and major injury.

I'm not saying Marner sucks... but 12 million is major overpayment just like 11 was before.

Also ticks me off that Ferris mentioned last contract talk that he wanted to be compensated for Lou taking away rookie bonuses on his ELC.

Well time for Marner to compensate for not earning his 11 million he got for the last 5 years. That's how it works according to Ferris.

I am thoroughly enjoying these playoffs. Marner has been Marner (not any diff than previous Marners), but Tree has built a better team (by draining the last bit of assets we have). Looking to the future... I wouldn't let the teams success get in the way that Marner isn't worth 12+ million on a short contract. His 5v5 stats have regressed 5v5 for 3 years now. And Knies is a substantial upgrade on any other linemate Matthews/Marner have ever had. He is still one of the leagues slowest players and has the weakest shots in the league...and he's nearing the end of his prime (regressed for 3 seasons already).

Honest question, if Tavares leaves, do we load line 1 with 36 million because Marner needs them? and let Nylander play with the scraps?

BTW Matthews stats show he's more productive without Marner...

 

[Confucius]

If McDavid decides to bring the show back to the big smoke I'm sure Marners presence or absence might play into it.

No way we could afford McDavid if we cave to a Marner contract

 

[Leaf Fans]

Marner has 2 5v5 shots in 3 games vs a bottom two team in this year's playoffs. One on a breakaway on a set jump the zone play. Certainly doesn't scream elite 12 million dollar forward.

Both Marners 5v5 points are on set plays. Because his skillset limits spontaneous offense.

He still isn't creating much 5v5. Certainly not like an elite player does, and not one that gets almost no shots and apparently shouldn't be judged on goals or shots because of incredible playmaking. He's also, not playing in any of the dirty areas as per usual.

This amount of offense vs a weak team, it will be interesting to see him vs a good team.

It would be one thing if he signed for 12 million x 8 and wasn't so dramatic and demanding.

But it's not enough to be a top paid NHL player, he needs a short term contract so can be more greedy. And we can do this all over again for a 3rd time in a few years.

He hasn't earned that here... not last time either (which he learned when nobody would give it to him even as an offersheet).

Ottawa is a good team.

 

[Zybalto]

Ottawa is a good team.

Ottawa as a top 5 team post-deadline going 14-5-2 down the stretch including huge wins against desperate teams.

Crapping on Ottawa is dumb..

 

[Superstar]

I agree, Kucherov is a good measuring stick for Marner. Kucherov being an elite pass first winger.

Kucherov still generating 8 shots/60 in 2022 all the way to the finals. Kutcherov had over 6.75 shots/60 every playoff before 2022.

Marner is at 1.33 shots/60 vs a lousy Sens team. He had only 2.53 shots per/60 vs Boston last year. And 4.8/60 the playoffs before that.

Also not discussing how Kucherov is a much more gritty/combative player.

We will see vs a good opponent. 2 shots vs Senators, I'm wondering if he'd generate any shots vs Florida.

This isn't even factoring that Kucherov was coming off 3 consecutive final appearances, 2 cups and major injury.

I'm not saying Marner sucks... but 12 million is major overpayment just like 11 was before.

Also ticks me off that Ferris mentioned last contract talk that he wanted to be compensated for Lou taking away rookie bonuses on his ELC.

Well time for Marner to compensate for not earning his 11 million he got for the last 5 years. That's how it works according to Ferris.

I am thoroughly enjoying these playoffs. Marner has been Marner (not any diff than previous Marners), but Tree has built a better team (by draining the last bit of assets we have). Looking to the future... I wouldn't let the teams success get in the way that Marner isn't worth 12+ million on a short contract. His 5v5 stats have regressed 5v5 for 3 years now. And Knies is a substantial upgrade on any other linemate Matthews/Marner have ever had. He is still one of the leagues slowest players and has the weakest shots in the league...and he's nearing the end of his prime (regressed for 3 seasons already).

Honest question, if Tavares leaves, do we load line 1 with 36 million because Marner needs them? and let Nylander play with the scraps?

BTW Matthews stats show he's more productive without Marner...

Gretzky though ...too bad Dubas didn't trade him to the Kings for Kempe, a package and a load of cash.

 

[Zybalto]

BTW Matthews stats show he's more productive without Marner...

Dont want to get into the weeds too much on this but I've posted it before:

Over the last 3 playoffs 5v5 (2022-2024):
Marner with Matthews:
Goals for/60: 3.53
Goals Against/60: 2.06

Marner without Matthews:
Goals for/60: 2.39
Goals Against/60: 1.18

Matthews without Marner:
Goals for/60: 1.66
Goals Against/60: 2.06

So far this playoffs:

Marner with Matthews:
Goals for/60: 6.08
Goals Against/60: 0.00

Again, I'd only suggest you wait until after we win the cup before we get onto Marner contract talk. Lets see what he does.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Ottawa as a top 5 team post-deadline going 14-5-2 down the stretch including huge wins against desperate teams.

Crapping on Ottawa is dumb..

It is said to downplay the Leafs series.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Can’t wait to see the goal posts for the vocal minority on Marner move again next round.

He’s having a hell of a year.

 

[arso40]

This is Sam Reinhart in a nutshell. He’s a skilled guy, he’s never been a tough guy.

The craziest thing is there are so many players that have crazier personalities than Marner and say the most outlandish stuff but because it’s a smaller market you never hear about. All the stuff people hate about Marner about he smiles too much or he plays video games or whatever other nonsense can be applied to so many players around the league.

Could you imagine this thread if Marner was on mic, saying something similar? We’d have 17 pages about it.

He doesn’t avoid contact that’s the major difference