Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Part 3758391849

[usernamezrhardtodo]

He won’t accept not having a nmc, so you never would be able to use him as an asset. If we overpay he’ll stay, if I were the GM I wouldn’t overpay.

It's a given that he won't accept anything less than a full NMC. At the same time...if we enter a rebuild, and short of drafting a McKenna...I think this time the rebuild will be much slower and he won't want to stick around for all the lowlights that would happen in that scenario.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Pretty much. We have a flipping DVD about 1993 and we didn't get out of the conference. And it's awesome.

I don't know he has to stay here though. Maybe he loses out now, but after the rest of his career passes, people won't look back on him the same way as they do now. History will be kinder to these guys because the feelings will fade and we'll have moved on to another guy to blame it on.

I would guess we're not, or at least we weren't earlier. I think it's likely that in the fall we were too low, trying to not get him much of a raise, probably trying to get him in at Willie type money. I think had we offered 12.5 in the fall, it would be over already. I mean, maybe we did and he wasn't going to sign that, but the target is moving. Any comparable he has right now is over 12.5 based on cap percentage. I know the team can point to Rantanen as a direct comparable, but 1) state taxes, and, oh boy people are going to lose it, 2) Marner is a better all around player. So you can point to that comparable, but if Marner and Ferris believe he's better, they aren't taking that 12-12.5 right now.

Further, it appears Marner is out of bubblegum because all he's done this year is kick arse. He's been immensely important, he's up at the top of the league in scoring, he's likely going to get a Selke nod again, he's pretty much doing everything right. If I'm him and I've bet on myself this much, why not keep doing it? He's really got no incentive to sign early. At worst, they point to Rantanen and say "he got 12, our guy is also one of the best defensive forwards in the game and scored more points than he did... again." At best? He continues this and he's played himself into a 14 million offer from someone, anyone, and that's all they need to get in the 13s.

I don't want to say Brad is getting played like a fiddle, Marner had to bet on himself for all of this, but he is. It's likely BT's biggest faults as a GM, he's not good at getting this stuff across the line. It feels very Willie. Could've got it done sooner for less, but you let your guy play his way to a bigger deal.

I doubt very much that the Leafs were trying to get him for Willie type money. But whatever, it's all speculation and we may never know what's been going on since last summer.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

People blame Marner for allowing Pastrnak to sneak behind. Honestly I think that was just 4 players sleeping. You could easily point to Marner, Nylander, Rielly and Samsonov and pick out things they could have done to prevent that entry

The team has basically imploded because of a lack of structure in the playoffs. Keefe thought he could just tell them to start playing defensive, playoff style hockey with 10 games left in the reg season. They never could flip that switch without hurting their offensive game. If they can't do it again this year after playing playoff style hockey from game 1...then I guess they should just blow it up with these core guys and start anew. Everything is right there for the picking. No excuses are left.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Dubas would have taken a draft pick for him. He wouldn't take less than what he thought the cap reduction would have been. Edmonton could have easily sent the 2nd round pick instead of holding out with the 6th.

So Dubas not getting even a 6th is a good thing because he "stood his ground" on top of the bad decision to not re-sign Hyman? Dubas had plenty of opportunities to stand his ground with the other bobo's in their contract years but decided that Hyman was going to be his crucible....The fear with Hyman was injuries...so in that case you just LTIR him and continue on...what a stupid hill to die on.

 

[Tak7]

So Dubas not getting even a 6th is a good thing because he "stood his ground" on top of the bad decision to not re-sign Hyman? Dubas had plenty of opportunities to stand his ground with the other bobo's in their contract years but decided that Hyman was going to be his crucible....The fear with Hyman was injuries...so in that case you just LTIR him and continue on...what a stupid hill to die on.

So much of this is revisionist though, right?

The prevailing thought at the time was that there was an upper-limit with Hyman, and that injuries were a major concern.

Let's stop pretending like we all knew he was going to morph into a 54 goal scorer once he left. His production in year 1 in Edmonton was on par with what he did here too.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So much of this is revisionist though, right?

The prevailing thought at the time was that there was an upper-limit with Hyman, and that injuries were a major concern.

Let's stop pretending like we all knew he was going to morph into a 54 goal scorer once he left. His production in year 1 in Edmonton was on par with what he did here too.

It's always revisionist around here. He's back to a 50 point pace this year too.

Even aside from the concerns around signing him into his mid-30s with his playstyle coming off 2 significant knee injuries in 2 years, I'm not sure how anybody who advocates for removing players that haven't matched their regular season production/conversion in the playoffs could complain about moving on from Hyman.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

So much of this is revisionist though, right?

The prevailing thought at the time was that there was an upper-limit with Hyman, and that injuries were a major concern.

Let's stop pretending like we all knew he was going to morph into a 54 goal scorer once he left. His production in year 1 in Edmonton was on par with what he did here too.

Revisionist by whom? The same folks that were happy to cheer along Dubas ruining the rebuild? The same folks that said Morgan rielly's signing was good? Probably.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

So much of this is revisionist though, right?

The prevailing thought at the time was that there was an upper-limit with Hyman, and that injuries were a major concern.

Let's stop pretending like we all knew he was going to morph into a 54 goal scorer once he left. His production in year 1 in Edmonton was on par with what he did here too.

The thing is...he was consistently getting better every year. It would not be an overpay for a guy approaching 30G a season and while I know he wouldn't have gotten 50 playing with AM and MM...he was still very useful and Dubas messed it up IMO. If Hyman wanted something like 7M....I would walk too....but 5M was nothing extraordinary for him to stay.

 

[therealkoho]

You'd think that's the case, but based on some of these arguments, it doesn't seem to be...ie. cap is up to $95.5 mil...Marner should get x% of the cap, therefore, he should be paid $13 mil, etc...which is ridiculous...he should be around where Rantanen got paid, that's probably his closest comparable...which is $12 mil....all this talk about him wanting $14 mil is crazy on his part...he's not negotiating in good faith, he knows the cap is up, and wants to take a huge chunk off it and get paid more than he's worth...I don't think any team is paying him $14 mil in the open market this summer.

Beware
The Sharks
The Utah Hockey Club
The Canes
The BJs
The Flames
The Ducks

Prolly a few more as well

 

[francis246]

Revisionist by whom? The same folks that were happy to cheer along Dubas ruining the rebuild? The same folks that said Morgan rielly's signing was good? Probably.

I wanted nothing to do Hyman and i hated Dubas for trading Kadri.

it is revisionist. Hyman was DOG SHIT against montreal. He was awful, i don't know how many grade A chances he got from both Matthews and Marner and he couldn't pot one. I did not want to resign him as I didnt think he had a good scoring touch, i remember a lot of people felt that way too, stone hands

 

[Racer88]

Beware
The Sharks
The Utah Hockey Club
The Canes
The BJs
The Flames
The Ducks

Prolly a few more as well

Send him!!!!!

 

[Leaf Fans]

So Dubas not getting even a 6th is a good thing because he "stood his ground" on top of the bad decision to not re-sign Hyman? Dubas had plenty of opportunities to stand his ground with the other bobo's in their contract years but decided that Hyman was going to be his crucible....The fear with Hyman was injuries...so in that case you just LTIR him and continue on...what a stupid hill to die on.

Yeah, kinda.

 

[Confucius]

Revisionist by whom? The same folks that were happy to cheer along Dubas ruining the rebuild? The same folks that said Morgan rielly's signing was good? Probably.

At the time I thought the sentiment was Reilly gave us a deal and took a discount. Lol

 

[LeafEgo]

So Dubas not getting even a 6th is a good thing because he "stood his ground" on top of the bad decision to not re-sign Hyman? Dubas had plenty of opportunities to stand his ground with the other bobo's in their contract years but decided that Hyman was going to be his crucible....The fear with Hyman was injuries...so in that case you just LTIR him and continue on...what a stupid hill to die on.

Dubie is comically terrible but 500k a year for six years is worth more than a 6th round pick, which is pretty much worthless.

Oilers were too brazen trying to take advantage of poor dubie. The only franchise as poorly managed as the Leafs over that time, go figure they both lost out.

 

[The Shadow]

Imagine Marner walks only to be replaced by McDavid next summer

That is a massive upgrade

 

[Mess]

Elbows UP Mitch

Its playoff time and time for you to get off the perimeter and into the battle ahead.

 

[ToneDog]

Should've added this to above, but I agree. As much as people don't want to hear it, it's not good business to let him walk. You know, maybe he gets no points in the playoffs and that changes, but that might also change his value in the market and then that still favours us.

You have to let him walk if he wants too much money. I agree with Sakic that you can pay big money to 2 stars at most. To date he is correct, we have won one series with 4 forwards making half the cap.

Paying the same 4 forwards $45m (47% of the projected cap) a second go, without playoff success is lunacy.

 

[Nineteen67]

Elbows UP Mitch

It’s playoff time and time for you to get off the perimeter and into the battle ahead.

2 weeks to prove his worth.

I doubt he has his elbows up, nor does he need to.

 

[ToneDog]

Elbows UP Mitch

Its playoff time and time for you to get off the perimeter and into the battle ahead.

LOL. Good luck. He is what he is. He will look better if their PP does not go dormant like it has in past playoffs.

 

[tuckerintensity]

You have to let him walk if he wants too much money. I'm agree with Sakic that you can pay big money to 2 stars at most. To date he is correct, we have won one series with 4 forwards making half the cap.

Paying the same 4 forwards $45m (47% of the projected cap) a second go, without playoff success is lunacy.

No, letting one of the best players in the league walk because you want to save a cool million is lunacy.

Everything else you said is pretty much fabricated. Lots of teams have more, and pay more, than two top players, and two of these four forwards making an alleged 47% of the cap don't have a contract next year. I know we wouldn't want to let facts get in the way of a good old hate fest though.

 

[ACC1224]

Final tally on a remarkable season.

 

[tuckerintensity]

The thing is...he was consistently getting better every year. It would not be an overpay for a guy approaching 30G a season and while I know he wouldn't have gotten 50 playing with AM and MM...he was still very useful and Dubas messed it up IMO. If Hyman wanted something like 7M....I would walk too....but 5M was nothing extraordinary for him to stay.

This is effing hilarious. No one wanted Dubas to touch Hyman with a ten foot pole given the contract he got in Edmonton and now it was a travesty to let him walk.

 

[ToneDog]

No, letting one of the best players in the league walk because you want to save a cool million is lunacy.

Everything else you said is pretty much fabricated. Lots of teams have more, and pay more, than two top players, and two of these four forwards making an alleged 47% of the cap don't have a contract next year. I know we wouldn't want to let facts get in the way of a good old hate fest though.

He is a soft Alex Kerfoot in the playoffs with a 1 and 8 record but wants to be paid like a playoff stud. He has 11 goals in 57 playoff games playing major minutes and PP time. On pace for for less than 16 goals. That is what you are calling one of the best players in the league? But hey let's not let facts get in the way of a good old love fest.

 

[ToneDog]

This is effing hilarious. No one wanted Dubas to touch Hyman with a ten foot pole given the contract he got in Edmonton and now it was a travesty to let him walk.

I did not lose any sleep when he walked but he was willing to take a discount. Leafs passed.

 

[The Shadow]

Elbows UP Mitch

Its playoff time and time for you to get off the perimeter and into the battle ahead.

He’s a perimeter player. How can anyone expect different? He can be successful with this style provided his line is doing the dirty work for him.