Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[notDatsyuk]

3rd best player? This isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't take him after Matthews, so the premise is flawed. We can easily afford him

Obviously after Matthews. Almost as obviously after Nylander as well.

 

[notDatsyuk]

To be fair

Where was the discount from 34?
Where was the discount from 88?

44 gave a discount and then he became ass and everyone hates him now.

I don’t blame him for asking for the max he can, it’s the culture that’s been established by our guys from the RFA days.

I have absolutely no problem with him asking for the max he can get.

I have a huge problem with the team giving him that.

Actually, I'd be happy if he insisted on getting $15M per - make it easier for the team to say goodbye.

 

[Aashir]

34 has a hallway pass. He also is a goal scorer and has won major trophies. Nylander's production has not dropped much in the playoffs and he scores goals. Marner plays afraid in the playoffs, his numbers drop like a rock the deeper in the series and he plays further away from the net in the playoffs. Then you have puck over the glass, crying in the penalty box, whining to refs, hissy fit on the bench, turnovers leading to huge goals. etc. The bad taste he left after his last contract negotiations did him no favours.

I guess we just agree to disagree here

Matthews having a hall pass is the entire problem. This is a guy who turns it on every other year, and is currently in another down year, Matthews’s contract negotiations were worse than Marners RFA+upcoming UFA and both of nylanders because it wasn’t even a negotiation. Matthews just bent us over and got whatever he wanted. Think about it, we didn’t get to negotiate AAV it was set, the only thing he graced GM treliving and the organization with was the term, whether it was a 4 or 5 year deal I bet. That’s 100x worse than what Marner did IMO

Difference between Matthews and Marner is that Matthews shows up for exactly ONE game as a top 5 player, Marner never does

And again you use the same argument for Nylander’s points and more specifically goals not dropping compared to Marner but gloss the fact that Matthews’s is even worse. You can actually argue that nylander is our best goal scorer come playoff time, so who Tf cares about hardware, which is almost exclusively the rocket when his production dies even harder.

Since 19-20 (Matthews’s extension kicked in) nylander actually has 4 more goals in 1 less game. But we don’t see anybody talking about that because Matthews always escapes criticism

I’ve strayed off the topic a bit, but I stand by the fact that Marner asking for money/being overpaid is just as bad as Matthews or nylander doing it, because each of them is an under-performer in their own way

I have absolutely no problem with him asking for the max he can get.

I have a huge problem with the team giving him that.

Actually, I'd be happy if he insisted on getting $15M per - make it easier for the team to say goodbye.

I also would never sign him to that

What I am saying is him asking for it isn’t new, as they’ve all done it, so it’s not like he’s the sour Apple, they all are

 

[notDatsyuk]

I’m not a Marner fan but I find your argument a bit insincere

Why is Marner criticized only for the playoffs but Matthews is hailed for his regular seasons. Nylander got overpaid too, but it was just a normal 8 year UFA overpayment, similar to what Marner will have

Matthews has been a dud in the past 5 playoff series’s too and don’t give me the bs injury excuse as his wrist gets hurt every year on game 83.

They’ve both been mediocre playoff players and great regular season players. Matthews has the grossest contract in the league and Marner will just have an overpaid contract.

I don’t want that, but if it comes to it I won’t just be mad/disappointed in 16, it’ll be all 3 of them who were after every penny.

Marner and Matthews and JT have all been justly hailed for their regular seasons and justly criticized for their playoffs.

I think the difference at the moment is that Matthews has already received his (overpaid) contract and JT will not be looking for more than his current, while Marner, at least according to reports, will be looking for a significant raise this year.

Nylander is overpaid as well, although not as badly, and doesn't disappear to the same extent in the playoffs. If Marner took basically the same contract as Nylander I don't think there would be too much complaining.

 

[francis246]

We need a stud dman.

Lmfaoo let’s just order one for the leafs off Amazon. Where do you think this stud dman is coming from?

To acquire a dman of that calibre it’s through trade or draft and develop. Maybe you get Chychrun to sign here and he’s like a tier 2 dman IMO

 

[thewave]

We need a stud dman.

If the organization wants to win. Getting back a good 2C or 3C and a Stud Dman is the only way to go.

Elite scoring C Matthews.
Elite scoring RW Nylander
Very Good C in JT (Not long left for that)
Elite Tending Woll and Stolarz both bring
Elite Dman is missing

Everything is good to go for a deep run team except the depth doesn't score and Rielly is broken + Elite D

Marner left out because 14m money for a playmaking WINGER is insane.

 

[ToneDog]

I guess we just agree to disagree here

Matthews having a hall pass is the entire problem. This is a guy who turns it on every other year, and is currently in another down year, Matthews’s contract negotiations were worse than Marners RFA+upcoming UFA and both of nylanders because it wasn’t even a negotiation. Matthews just bent us over and got whatever he wanted. Think about it, we didn’t get to negotiate AAV it was set, the only thing he graced GM treliving and the organization with was the term, whether it was a 4 or 5 year deal I bet. That’s 100x worse than what Marner did IMO

Difference between Matthews and Marner is that Matthews shows up for exactly ONE game as a top 5 player, Marner never does

And again you use the same argument for Nylander’s points and more specifically goals not dropping compared to Marner but gloss the fact that Matthews’s is even worse. You can actually argue that nylander is our best goal scorer come playoff time, so who Tf cares about hardware, which is almost exclusively the rocket when his production dies even harder.

Since 19-20 (Matthews’s extension kicked in) nylander actually has 4 more goals in 1 less game. But we don’t see anybody talking about that because Matthews always escapes criticism

I’ve strayed off the topic a bit, but I stand by the fact that Marner asking for money/being overpaid is just as bad as Matthews or nylander doing it, because each of them is an under-performer in their own way


I also would never sign him to that

What I am saying is him asking for it isn’t new, as they’ve all done it, so it’s not like he’s the sour Apple, they all are

I agree with much of what you say but at the end of the day, if you asked me how I rank the 3 playoff losers, I'd say Matthews, Nylander and Marner. 34 and 88 are already signed so unless Marner softens on his ask, I'd let him walk. Two soft wingers making $25m is pure stupidity and you will never win with these two but you will sell lots of jerseys.

 

[Hallonbroder]

To be fair

Where was the discount from 34?
Where was the discount from 88?

44 gave a discount and then he became ass and everyone hates him now.

I don’t blame him for asking for the max he can, it’s the culture that’s been established by our guys from the RFA days.

88 pretty much performed as 16 on a 6,9-deal. Some of his was retroactive

 

[thewave]

I agree with much of what you say but at the end of the day, if you asked me how I rank the 3 playoff losers, I'd say Matthews, Nylander and Marner. 34 and 88 are already signed so unless Marner softens on his ask, I'd let him walk. Two soft wingers making $25m is pure stupidity and you will never win with these two but you will sell lots of jerseys.

Also think about this.

They are willing to pay a guy 13m+ possibly to make a guy that makes 13m+ and is expected to get 50+ score maybe an extra 10 to 15 goals on the year above that.

Just think about how insane that is cap wise. I mean if he made Domi and say Minten 30g and 25g scorers while getting 25g himself. That's great!

I know a lot of hockey guys aren't great at math but... I think they should have someone to point it out.

 

[Hallonbroder]

I’m not a Marner fan but I find your argument a bit insincere

Why is Marner criticized only for the playoffs but Matthews is hailed for his regular seasons. Nylander got overpaid too, but it was just a normal 8 year UFA overpayment, similar to what Marner will have

Matthews has been a dud in the past 5 playoff series’s too and don’t give me the bs injury excuse as his wrist gets hurt every year on game 83.

They’ve both been mediocre playoff players and great regular season players. Matthews has the grossest contract in the league and Marner will just have an overpaid contract.

I don’t want that, but if it comes to it I won’t just be mad/disappointed in 16, it’ll be all 3 of them who were after every penny.

Why are you calling other “insincere” when you’re clearly acting as if the last years did not occur?

 

[BraveCanadian]

88 pretty much performed as 16 on a 6,9-deal. Some of his was retroactive

Not true. One of them actually plays in both ends of the rink.

 

[thewave]

Not true. One of them actually plays in both ends of the rink.

A lot of Marners both ends of the rink are when he drops the puck off like a hot potato and has to hustle back and fix it. He does hustle back though.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Not true. One of them actually plays in both ends of the rink.

I play at both ends of the rink, and I'm not worth $13M.

 

[GoonieFace]

A lot of Marners both ends of the rink are when he drops the puck off like a hot potato and has to hustle back and fix it. He does hustle back though.

Also not hard to be the first man back when you hang out at the blue line all the time. It’s actually irritating at times

 

[ToneDog]

Also not hard to be the first man back when you hang out at the blue line all the time. It’s actually irritating at times

How can you be considered a 200 foot player when you seldom go within 40 feet of the opposition's net.

 

[Aashir]

Why are you calling other “insincere” when you’re clearly acting as if the last years did not occur?

I’m not, I’ll be the first to say Marner’s had an awful playoffs that shouldn’t be acceptable no matter what, and I’m not ignoring Montreal or Columbus either.

What I found a bit insincere about the argument was Marner was criticized for an aspect of a game (valid), and nylander was praised for said aspect and another aspect so still related to marners criticism (somewhat valid), and yet Matthews had no mention of his playoffs and only the accolades mattered which was redirecting the goalposts abit.

 

[thewave]

How can you be considered a 200 foot player when you seldom go within 40 feet of the opposition's net.

Mitch 160?

 

[Lemontree]

A lot of Marners both ends of the rink are when he drops the puck off like a hot potato and has to hustle back and fix it. He does hustle back though.

Not when he turns the puck over on the powerplay, he puts his head down and sulks as the pk forward heads the other way on a breakaway. Marner playing the point on the powerplay is downright stupid.

 

[thewave]

Not when he turns the puck over on the powerplay, he puts his head down and sulks as the pk forward heads the other way on a breakaway. Marner playing the point on the powerplay is downright stupid.

What does he even do back there. He has nothing. Shot? Nope. Pass? Sure but it's generally from a stationary spot and the other team anticipates it every time. Morgan? No shot there either.

What are we even doing on the PP with those lines?

 

[ToneDog]

Not when he turns the puck over on the powerplay, he puts his head down and sulks as the pk forward heads the other way on a breakaway. Marner playing the point on the powerplay is downright stupid.

Can you imagine the hissy fit he throws if Berube took him off PP1? Why not make him the guy who screens the goalie (I'd pay to see that) and see how long it takes him to waive his NMC.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Look how good Necas is doing in Colorado.

He was supposed to be a downgrade on Rantanen. Early returns look like the Avs got the better of that deal. A fine replacement plus the added depth make them a better team overall than what they were before with Rantanen alone.

The Leafs might not win the cup without Marner but they sure as hell aren't winning it with him either.

On July 10, 2019, the Thunder traded Paul George to the Clippers for Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Danilo Gallinari, five first-round draft picks, and the rights to swap two other first-round picks.

 

[ToneDog]

What does he even do back there. He has nothing. Shot? Nope. Pass? Sure but it's generally from a stationary spot and the other team anticipates it every time. Morgan? No shot there either.

What are we even doing on the PP with those lines?

PP looked great last night not having every other pass having to go through him.

 

[arso40]

Disagree with me, as this is just my opinion...

It's not just that Marner and Matthews doesn't work, it's that Marner makes Matthews a worse player.

Matthews works harder away from Marner and plays a more engaged style.

It’s not just your opinion it’s fact

 

[Evilhomer]

I'm coming around to the idea that the Leafs will pay him more than Matthews. I don't agree with it, but the longer it goes, the more likely it becomes that they cave more than Marner's camp caves. His agent has so much ammunition now that the league has disclosed what the cap will be more than one year out.

 

[freshwind]

as far as the comments re: where were the discounts for 34 and 88 --- this falls on 34 ... willie said last year that he would look at a discount if others did as well .. shortly after that auston signed his current deal ...
from friedman:

[Friedman] When it comes to William Nylander’s negotiations, the biggest problem I think is this: he’s not gonna want to take less if he doesn’t think anyone else is going to. If he believes other players will, he will.​