Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[ToneDog]

I stopped following baseball decades ago, but Pete Rose, Rod Carew, Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, etc., compared to players of their era? Probably.

They could also be negotiating right now. No one knows.

Different eras but those were great players. We'll leave it at that so we do not derail this thread.

 

[ToneDog]

Primary assists are just as valuable, and Marner leads the league in primary assists. 6 goals at 5v5 is actually 171st, not 215th (and to give perspective on spread, 1 more goal would be +40 rankings). Players with equal or fewer 5v5 goals this season include M. Tkachuk, B. Tkachuk, Crosby, Malkin, Aho, Konecny, Barkov, etc.

Which of those players is coming off a $66m contract and is asking for close to $14m and has a reputation of being a playoff choker and whiner? I'd take each and every one of those players at their cap hits over what Marner is asking for. You do you.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I am not diminishing his playmaking abilities.

But you are, by exaggerating the relative value of and focusing exclusively on goals.

Of those players mentioned, how many are going to make $13mil or more?

Which of those players is coming off a $66m contract and is asking for close to $14m and has a reputation of being a playoff choker and whiner?

Of those players I mentioned, how many are also 2nd in 5v5 assists, 1st in 5v5 primary assists, 4th in PP points, 11th in SH points, 4th in overall points, a great PKer, great defensively, etc.?

And to ToneDog specifically, nobody in the NHL actually considers Marner a playoff choker or whiner. That's just you and your imagination.

Most of them also bring many other elements as well and are centres.

Marner brings more non-5v5 goal elements than any of them, and center or winger is irrelevant, especially when Marner often takes on center (and sometimes even defenseman) responsibilities.

Also perspective, he has 4 more primary 5v5 assists than Pierre Luc Dubois.

Actually, he has the exact same number of 5v5 primary assists as Pierre Luc Dubois. Want to know why? Because Pierre Luc Dubois is tied with McDavid, Crosby, and Marner for the league lead in 5v5 primary assists. Which actually kind of perfectly demonstrates the underlying point that a specific type of 5v5 point is an extremely rare event. It's not going to be perfectly representative of a player in a half season sample.

 

[Hallonbroder]

Primary assists are just as valuable, and Marner leads the league in primary assists. 6 goals at 5v5 is actually 171st, not 215th (and to give perspective on spread, 1 more goal would be +40 rankings). Players with equal or fewer 5v5 goals this season include M. Tkachuk, B. Tkachuk, Crosby, Malkin, Aho, Konecny, Barkov, etc.

Whats the trophy for most primary assists now again?

 

[freshwind]

Whats the trophy for most primary assists now again?

I hear Paul is lobbying the league to name it the mitch marner award

 

[Dekes For Days]

Whats the trophy for most primary assists now again?

The only trophy that actually matters is the Stanley Cup, and you don't get that by ignoring the value of playmaking.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I hear Paul is lobbying the league to name it the mitch marner award

I thought it was secondary assists. No wait, that was last month.

 

[ToneDog]

7 goals (2 EN - Hat trick) in last 30 games - 19 goal pace

 

[Madap]

The only trophy that actually matters is the Stanley Cup, and you don't get that by ignoring the value of playmaking.

And you won’t get it by overvaluing playmaking like the leafs have currently done over the past few years. Marner has not been worth his 11M in any year except maybe this one (so far).

Primary assists are worth the same as goals? Come on man, you can’t honestly believe that. There is zero support for that and the most basic application of logic could prove that wrong.

 

[Hallonbroder]

The only trophy that actually matters is the Stanley Cup, and you don't get that by ignoring the value of playmaking.

So if I go through you posting-history, I won’t find any kind of “chest-bumbing” over having a Rocket-winner on the Leafs these days eh?

Also, if that’s the only trophy that matters, why are you writing the things you are?

 

[GoonieFace]

So if I go through you posting-history, I won’t find any kind of “chest-bumbing” over having a Rocket-winner on the Leafs these days eh?

Also, if that’s the only trophy that matters, why are you writing the things you are?

You can never win an argument against Chat GPT

 

[notDatsyuk]

It’s true it could be the number. I think it’s most likely waiting on other players and the salary cap. We also have to remember that both sides play the media. We can’t just take the reports of the leafs offering a contract and being ready to sign him as absolute truth either. Teams have to also win the PR battle. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. They probably have a number they both like, but they are waiting on the right time to ink the deal. Probably a time that doesn’t put too much heat on the organization and Mitch. But that’s just my opinion I could be wrong of course.

I would suspect that each side has a number in mind (probably shared with the other side), and both are waiting to see how much they have to move up or down, based on a lot of factors, likely including but not limited to: 4Nations, rest of season, playoffs, injuries, other UFAs, cap projections, and 'soft tampering'.

 

[Stringer Bell]

For him to be anywhere near what he is reportedly asking for, he absolutely needs to score more.

How many forwards with an over $10 million cap hit have never hit 40 goals? How many are wingers?

 

[notDatsyuk]

The only trophy that actually matters is the Stanley Cup, and you don't get that by ignoring the value of playmaking.

Or by overpaying for it.

 

[francis246]

And you won’t get it by overvaluing playmaking like the leafs have currently done over the past few years. Marner has not been worth his 11M in any year except maybe this one (so far).

Primary assists are worth the same as goals? Come on man, you can’t honestly believe that. There is zero support for that and the most basic application of logic could prove that wrong.

Nah the two Covid seasons. He was legit the best RW in the league. 2022/2023 he was legit unbelieveable for the leafs. I would say from 2020-2023 he was worth his contract. Some underwhelming playoff performances but he was legit a goal scoring threat and good defensively those years especially 21/22

His 2023/24 season was also impressive. If he doesn’t get injured there for almost 15 games he probably finishes with close to 40 goals and above 100 points. He had 85 in 69GP and 26 goals.

 

[leafs in five]

Whats the trophy for most primary assists now again?

Barclays Man of the Match award

 

[francis246]

Barclays Man of the Match award

lol I honestly threw that cat on ignore and it was the best decision I ever made

 

[trellaine201]

I would love to be in Marners shoes. His agent and Mitch must be licking there chop$$$$$$

 

[Hallonbroder]

Barclays Man of the Match award

“Man of the Mitch

 

[Antropovsky]

I am not diminishing his playmaking abilities. Of those players mentioned, how many are going to make $13mil or more? Most of them also bring many other elements as well and are centres. Also perspective, he has 4 more primary 5v5 assists than Pierre Luc Dubois.

When you have apparently the leagues best playmaker making 13.37% (time of signing) of the cap, playing with the league's best 5v5 goal scorer making 15% of the cap... they should be dominating their respective categories (goals, promary assists). Especially when you consider just how little of a shooting threat Marner is compared to other star players.

There stats together don't align with how good they are paid to be.

Marner doesnt set Matthews up for prime chances very often in games. Like I said earlier, Nylander was briefly put on Matthews line and instantly set Matthews up for the easiest tap in he's had all year. Nylander was close to the net for the setup...Marners set up attempts are primarily top of the circles or near the blueline.

 

[Stringer Bell]

When you have apparently the leagues best playmaker making 13.37% (time of signing) of the cap, playing with the league's best 5v5 goal scorer making 15% of the cap... they should be dominating their respective categories (goals, promary assists). Especially when you consider just how little of a shooting threat Marner is compared to other star players.

There stats together don't align with how good they are paid to be.

Marner doesnt set Matthews up for prime chances very often in games. Like I said earlier, Nylander was briefly put on Matthews line and instantly set Matthews up for the easiest tap in he's had all year. Nylander was close to the net for the setup...Marners set up attempts are primarily top of the circles or near the blueline.

I like Marner but he is very, very much a perimeter player. It seems to work in the regular season but does not in the playoffs - obviously. You can see it by his goal totals. Goals, especially in the playoffs, are going to be scored closer to the goalie - within the perimeter.

This year he has become even better at playing the perimeter. But getting better at something that doesn't work in the playoffs doesn't mean thaaaat much to me.

Even as a playmaker, he NEEDS to get in closer to the net to be effective in the playoffs. He's just not doing that at all.

 

[Hallonbroder]

lol I honestly threw that cat on ignore and it was the best decision I ever made

@leafs in five that is a great option when someone just wants everyone to agree with oneself

 

[francis246]

@leafs in five that is a great option when someone just wants everyone to agree with oneself

Nah I don’t want that. Your posts just have me losing brain cells honestly, jokes are terrible, and have not provided anything of substance to any conversation.

I think I have like one other person on ignore.. I don’t even have antro on ignore who I disagree with basically on everything.

 

[Madap]

Nah the two Covid seasons. He was legit the best RW in the league. 2022/2023 he was legit unbelieveable for the leafs. I would say from 2020-2023 he was worth his contract. Some underwhelming playoff performances but he was legit a goal scoring threat and good defensively those years especially 21/22

His 2023/24 season was also impressive. If he doesn’t get injured there for almost 15 games he probably finishes with close to 40 goals and above 100 points. He had 85 in 69GP and 26 goals.

Saying the best RW is not really relevant when discussing if he was worth this contract. You have to compare him to all positions, and he was not even the best winger.

He never broke 100 points once over that time frame, or ever, and while I realize some of that is due to injuries, he’s still getting paid for the whole season so reliability counts.

He’s never won any major award. He’s terrible in the playoffs. I’m sorry, a few really good partial seasons with no major awards while stapled to an MVP calibre Center is just not worth a top 5 contract in the league and hasn’t been over the last 6 years.

I truly don’t understand why everyone wants to rush and get this guy signed. I’ll be more than happy to pay him if he proves he can do it in the playoffs, but zero point in doing it before.

 

[Jojalu]

There is a well known proverb..

“If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it's yours. If not, it was never meant to be”​

I personally suspect that those Leaf fans that want him re-signed now, fear the possibility he chokes again come playoff time, and with another embarrassing and disappointing post season the organization will see the light and move on. If he delivers another 1 goal 2 assist 3 point in 7 game performance and Leafs early out, (mimicking last year), then there will be a great uprising of Leaf Nation wanting change at his expense.

There is no real fear that Marner is waiting until UFA status so he can flee Toronto. His first choice is always to remain a Leaf.

Maybe this year will be different and it will be a WIN - WIN for both player and team, and Marner carries his exceptional regular season into the playoffs, and helps lead the Leafs to a long playoff run, and in turn is rewarded financially and locked up long-term.

I'm in the prove it camp first, then get paid for playoff performance.

Outside the Montreal series, which one has been embarassing? Disappointing sure.