Mitch “Magic” Marner Thread

[Dekes For Days]

if someone wants to do a deeper dive in actual minutes played- I'd love to know more

Entire Toronto series - 329 minutes - 0.952 goaltending by Columbus
First 4 games of Tampa series - 328 minutes - 0.950 goaltending by Columbus

"Figured out"

 

[IPS]

Entire Toronto series - 329 minutes - 0.952 goaltending by Columbus
First 4 games of Tampa series - 328 minutes - 0.950 goaltending by Columbus

"Figured out"

Korpisalo SV%

Game 3: .912
Game 4: .909
Game 5: .800

If you wanna argue that Tampa didn't figure him out, knock yourself out..

btw I like how you just completely excluded game 5 of the Tampa series. Kinda woulda made that cherry picked sample of yours not look so agenda-friendly.

 

[Dekes For Days]

btw I like how you just completely excluded game 5 of the Tampa series. Kinda woulda made that cherry picked sample of yours not look so agenda-friendly.

It's not a "cherry-picked sample". It's the equivalent time into the Tampa series as the length of the Toronto series, as was requested. Even though a goaltending performance like that is wildly unsustainable and bound to end at some point, Cup winner Tampa was actually no better at "figuring out" Columbus' goaltending through the same amount of time.

It's pretty funny that you're talking about cherry-picking, after you literally just excluded game 1 and 2 from your post because it didn't suit your narrative, even though they were the most relevant games, closest to the Toronto series. At the same time, you're ignoring that Columbus' goalie literally set a playoff record in the game following our series, and that it was Tampa's worst series offensively.

You also ignored my (and the other poster's) entire previous reply, identifying the numerous issues with your statements, including the fact that your other chosen example (Vegas) had a losing record in the games they supposedly "figured out" their hot goalie.

Literally everything points to an excellent goaltending performance, which anybody watching the series could clearly see. All of the players on two of the best scoring and finishing teams in the league didn't just suddenly and simultaneously forget how to shoot.

 

[IPS]

It's not a "cherry-picked sample". It's the equivalent time into the Tampa series as the length of the Toronto series, as was requested. Even though a goaltending performance like that is wildly unsustainable and bound to end at some point, Cup winner Tampa was actually no better at "figuring out" Columbus' goaltending through the same amount of time.

It's pretty funny that you're talking about cherry-picking, after you literally just excluded game 1 and 2 from your post because it didn't suit your narrative, even though they were the most relevant games, closest to the Toronto series. At the same time, you're ignoring that Columbus' goalie literally set a playoff record in the game following our series, and that it was Tampa's worst series offensively.

You also ignored my (and the other poster's) entire previous reply, identifying the numerous issues with your statements, including the fact that your other chosen example (Vegas) had a losing record in the games they supposedly "figured out" their hot goalie.

Literally everything points to an excellent goaltending performance, which anybody watching the series could clearly see. All of the players on two of the best scoring and finishing teams in the league didn't just suddenly and simultaneously forget how to shoot.

Are there any experts out there who measure a playoff series by how many minutes were played?

5 games is 5 games, you can try to manipulate it into whatever you want but none if it has any validity.

Run from the facts all you like, on a game-by-game basis (you know, the way hockey is supposed to be measured) Tampa systemically figured out Columbus' goaltending. They also happened to have a superior defense/goalie (inb4 you argue our defense is as good as Tampa's) to ours which allowed them to stretch out a ridiculously long overtime to give them more time to do it. Unfortunately for us, our defense/goaltending wasn't at that level and did embarrassing shit like blow a 3-0 lead to one of the worst offensive teams in hockey.

They were good to go by game 3. Tampa learned what they needed to learn and adjusted their game accordingly to defeat Columbus 3 straight to eliminate them. Their star player's production subsequently ramped up because of this. They're a more experienced team than us, and they had a better grasp on how to overcome a hot goalie. No stats or cherry picking needed.

I don't know why I'm even arguing any of this, seems so infantile and pointless. Anyone who's been following the game for a good amount of time knows what's up.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Are there any experts out there who measure a playoff series by how many minutes were played?

The topic of conversation was based on “figuring out a goalie”. If you’re saying TBL is great because they figured out a goalie, but it took them longer than 5 games to do really do it, while Toronto only had 5 games to figure them out, then it’s not a very good point to make, and the stats show it by using those 5 games.

 

[DarkKnight]

Marner is on a 103 point pace.

53rd in the league for PP points, makes that number even more intriguing.

 

[saltming]

Great character

 

[Gallagbi]

Korpisalo SV%

Game 3: .912
Game 4: .909
Game 5: .800

If you wanna argue that Tampa didn't figure him out, knock yourself out..

btw I like how you just completely excluded game 5 of the Tampa series. Kinda woulda made that cherry picked sample of yours not look so agenda-friendly.

The series played were different lengths. One was to 3 wins, one was to 4 wins. That's a big reason why I requested the greater details.

The other part, and I think this was was obvious, was how Korpi was on the ride of his life. We all knew it would stop - nobody expected a Vezina this year. We struggled to score, just like Tampa did for the majority of their series.

I'd actually be more interested in seeing the defensive stats for TB over that period than miscrediting an offensive outburst.

 

[CincoHolio]

Great character

The scrum media in this town really puts out fanboy-ish questions sometimes. It's cringe worthy. Could you imagine being asked how great you think your teammate is literally every single game? So lazy with the questions.

 

[saltming]

The scrum media in this town really puts out fanboy-ish questions sometimes. It's cringe worthy. Could you imagine being asked how great you think your teammate is literally every single game? So lazy with the questions.

Agreed but still a great response

 

[DarkKnight]

The scrum media in this town really puts out fanboy-ish questions sometimes. It's cringe worthy. Could you imagine being asked how great you think your teammate is literally every single game? So lazy with the questions.

What else were they supposed to ask him? I mean Matthews scored two off great feeds from the player they’re asking, is there another topic you feel they should query him? And if they ask Auston what it’s like to play with a great passer, is this cringe worthy? I mean what else do they ask them about, they’re linemates, arguably the best duo to ever put on the jersey.

 

[Garthinater]

Things Marner is better at this year:
es p/60

Things Rantanen is better at this year:
es g/60
ppp/60
ppg/60

What does it all add up to?

A very very close overall p/60.
And an outrageous commanding lead for Rantanen on overall g/60.

Advantage Rantanen. Significant advantage Rantanen.

He's currently a better player.

And I absolutely LOVE that Rantanen being DRAMATICALLY better than Marner in the playoffs isn't allowed to count because they played "different teams". As I've shown, he hasn't been slightly better. It's more like comparing a 2nd liner to McDavid.

And then you say they played teams easier to score against.... just like to point out that Columbus and Coyotes were TIED in total goals against last season. Rantanen still found a way to score....

Rants has also been better than matthews in the playoffs.

So are you saying rants > matthews?

 

[Nooodles]

The scrum media in this town really puts out fanboy-ish questions sometimes. It's cringe worthy. Could you imagine being asked how great you think your teammate is literally every single game? So lazy with the questions.

Imagine you have the chance to interview these guys, ask questions, and legit get paid for it....and than you come up with questions like this.

Bunch of idiots. Always hated every reporter.

 

[Notsince67]

The scrum media in this town really puts out fanboy-ish questions sometimes. It's cringe worthy. Could you imagine being asked how great you think your teammate is literally every single game? So lazy with the questions.

So tired of canned responses like "he is a special player" given to every player one is asked to opine about.

 

[PromisedLand]

where the Mitch haters at?

 

[justloveleafs]

Imagine you have the chance to interview these guys, ask questions, and legit get paid for it....and than you come up with questions like this.

Bunch of idiots. Always hated every reporter.

What do you do for a living..... you are very interesting. Cool poster.

 

[DarkKnight]

Rants has also been better than matthews in the playoffs.

So are you saying rants > matthews?

Yes this is how it works around here. He also has superior playoff stats to McJesus, so hes better than him too apparently. This exercise is actually a case of hiding behind a bastardized point to make a larger false narrative.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Rants has also been better than matthews in the playoffs.

So are you saying rants > matthews?

The simple answer is that the small sample size of the playoffs can be part of the equation, but not the full story.

Rantanen and Marner were pretty close (until Rantanen pulled significantly ahead this year), so the fact that he performed so well in the playoffs swayed him ahead.

Regarding this year, remember (as we were told a billion times during contract discussions) that we only use /60 stats.

The ONLY /60 stat where Marner is better this year is even strength points. Rantanen has FAR better /60 stats in es goals, pp goals, and pp points.

The end result is they are very close in overall p/60, but Rantanen has a WAY higher overall g/60.

He simply pulled ahead. He's better this year.

That's not by any means suggests that Marner has been "bad". Just not as good as Rantanen.

I didn't even start this Rantanen comparison. I was just fed up of the misleading weird inconsistent stats being used to suggest Marner has been better this year.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

That is not true. You're ignoring primary point production, and putting an emphasis on goals, while comparing a goal scorer and playmaker. You're also ignoring entire relevant game states for these players, because they are in favour of Marner. You're also exaggerating the difference on the PP, while downplaying the discrepancy in a game state that makes up the majority of ice time. You're also ignoring the bigger sample, where Marner has shown to be equal to or better in everything except PP goal scoring.

Yes, I'm comparing a goal scorer to a playmaker.

How this happens with Matthews when compared to playmakers is "He has 12 more goals, so that makes up for the 20 less points. He's a goal scorer. You have to consider both".

Ok. Let's do that with Rantanen. "Sure, he's pacing for 20 more goals/82, so that makes up for him having so much less points... oh.... what's that? He's pacing for the same amount of points/82? His overall p/60 is VERY close? And he has THAT many more goals? Jeez. Ok. Case closed."

And you say it's a "fact" that Columbus had great goaltending vs the leafs last summer. I say it's a "fact" that our outrageously expensive forwards had horrible finish.
[/QUOTE]

 

[kk87]

The simple answer is that the small sample size of the playoffs can be part of the equation, but not the full story.

Rantanen and Marner were pretty close (until Rantanen pulled significantly ahead this year), so the fact that he performed so well in the playoffs swayed him ahead.

Regarding this year, remember (as we were told a billion times during contract discussions) that we only use /60 stats.

The ONLY /60 stat where Marner is better this year is even strength points. Rantanen has FAR better /60 stats in es goals, pp goals, and pp points.

The end result is they are very close in overall p/60, but Rantanen has a WAY higher overall g/60.

He simply pulled ahead. He's better this year.

That's not by any means suggests that Marner has been "bad". Just not as good as Rantanen.

I didn't even start this Rantanen comparison. I was just fed up of the misleading weird inconsistent stats being used to suggest Marner has been better this year.

wow, no words

 

[zeke]

Since Keefe finally gave our guys star usage:

Even strength

1. Panarin 28gl/84pt pace
2. McDavid 32gl/78pt
3. Matthews 46gl/73pt
4. Marner 23gl/71pt
5. MacKinnon 25gl/71pt
6. Stone 21gl/67pt
7. Draisaitl 21gl/67pt
8. Malkin 22gl/67pt
9. Kane 23gl/66pt
10. Guentzel 29gl/66pt

 

[Throw More Waffles]

wow, no words

What?

Marner is pacing for 102 points, 28 goals.
Rantanen is pacing for 103 points, 51 goals.

How in the world are we arguing Marner is better this year? Even the /60 stats favor Rantanen overall.

Jesus Murphy...

I think the problem is people take "Rantanen is better this year" as "Marner trash and should be traded".

Marner's been incredible this year. Rantanen has just been even better.

 

[bpower]

The simple answer is that the small sample size of the playoffs can be part of the equation, but not the full story.

Rantanen and Marner were pretty close (until Rantanen pulled significantly ahead this year), so the fact that he performed so well in the playoffs swayed him ahead.

Regarding this year, remember (as we were told a billion times during contract discussions) that we only use /60 stats.

The ONLY /60 stat where Marner is better this year is even strength points. Rantanen has FAR better /60 stats in es goals, pp goals, and pp points.

The end result is they are very close in overall p/60, but Rantanen has a WAY higher overall g/60.

He simply pulled ahead. He's better this year.

That's not by any means suggests that Marner has been "bad". Just not as good as Rantanen.

I didn't even start this Rantanen comparison. I was just fed up of the misleading weird inconsistent stats being used to suggest Marner has been better this year.

Rantanen has pulled "significantly" ahead of the player with the third most points in the league? Please don't hurt yourself with those mental gymnastics.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Are there any experts out there who measure a playoff series by how many minutes were played?

If the baseless claim is about "figuring out a goalie", then yeah, how long they faced that goalie matters, especially when we're talking about a goaltending performance that was unsustainable and bound to end soon regardless of who they faced. The simple fact is, Cup winner Tampa was no better at "figuring out" Columbus' goaltending through the same amount of time as Toronto. Tampa just faced him for longer.

Your argument essentially boils down to "well, even though that goaltending maintained for quite a while after our series, against the best offensive team in the league, and eventual Cup champion, the goalie didn't sustain his wildly unsustainable 0.952 performance forever, so we clearly just suck".

5 games is 5 games, you can try to manipulate it into whatever you want but none if it has any validity.

Again, you literally excluded half of the sample. The most relevant half of the sample that was closest to the Toronto series. The half of the sample that included the goaltender we faced setting a playoff goaltending record in the game literally right after ours. And you're over here complaining that I'm looking at equivalent time against the same goalie, to test your theory you've given no evidence of, at the request of another individual? Even if we include the entire series, it was Tampa's lowest scoring series of the playoffs.

Run from the facts all you like

The only one running from facts here is you. On top of everything we're talking about here, you still haven't even addressed Vegas (the team you brought up) having a losing record against the hot goaltending they faced. Or how you've determined that goaltenders are worthless blobs with no variation in play, contrary to all real world evidence, and all of the players on two of the best scoring and finishing teams in the league just suddenly and collectively forgot how to shoot. Or how in the context of the original discussion, how a team scoring a bunch on a goalie is somehow attributable to one individual on that team. Etc.

They also happened to have a superior defense/goalie (inb4 you argue our defense is as good as Tampa's) to ours which allowed them to stretch out a ridiculously long overtime to give them more time to do it.

Yes, this is the real difference, not the baseless claims about offense you've made. Unfortunately, getting better 5v5 and PK defensive results than the best defensive team in the league during the regular season, and some of the best defensive results of the qualifiers wasn't enough. Unfortunately, a hot goalie can cover for a lot, and we ran into a hot goalie in a shorter than usual series.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Rantanen has pulled "significantly" ahead of the player with the third most points in the league? Please don't hurt yourself with those mental gymnastics.

But he has. Look at the post right above yours.

Who would you say is having a better season this year. Matthews or Kane?