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Miscellaneous NHL Discussion CX: That's A Lot.

Fight4yourRight said:
Kuzmenko with a real nice goal and assist tonight, after a 3 point night their last game.

Remind me why DB bailed on him so quickly again, after talking how they had previously targeted him and gave up assets for him?
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Because it was the correct thing to do. Take the pick as he is a very inconsistent player. No need to rush to get him signed to a multi year deal.

Can easily revisit after the season.
 
It just speaks to priorities.

Could have traded Hathaway or Seeler, but rushed to those contracts.

The talented guy with a questionable motor. Gone.
 
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TCTC said:
Lemieux is an interesting case though. Some of his goal scoring seasons are for the ages. If he had stayed injury free you would think Gretzky's record would've been broken a long time ago.

I agree though. Ovechkin has earned it. He simply is the best goalscorer of all time.
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I'm very interested in having such discussions. I'm also very interested in removing a major avenue for bad-faithing it that we've routinely gotten from people who have their minds short circuit over a non North American at the top.

I have simple methods to start with and make a framework.

Most times leading league:

OV: 9
Gretzky: 5
Richard: 5
Howe: 4
Matthews: 3
Stamkos: 2
Hull: 2
Lemieux: 2
Bure: 2

Now we can start using our brainmeat to work around. The pure force of OV leading 9 times over such a long period stands on its own. How do we compensate for lower competition for Richard and Howe? Lemieux, Hull, and Selanne could possibly all be higher. How much? Are they really better than Matthews and Stamkos, or not? How much do we weigh goals per game versus actually being on the ice and scoring for duration? Who has the best individual seasons vs career? Who else belongs?

A problem these talks often hit is a refusal to acknowledge that yes, some current players could actually be better than childhood heroes. Knocking Gretzky to 2 is a good start to defusing that nonsense.
 
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Beef Invictus said:
I'm very interested in having such discussions. I'm also very interested in removing a major avenue for bad-faithing it that we've routinely gotten from people who have their minds short circuit over a non North American at the top.

I have simple methods to start with and make a framework.

Most times leading league:

OV: 9
Gretzky: 5
Richard: 5
Howe: 4
Matthews: 3
Stamkos: 2
Hull: 2
Lemieux: 2
Bure: 2

Now we can start using our brainmeat to work around. The pure force of OV leading 9 times over such a long period stands on its own. How do we compensate for lower competition for Richard and Howe? Lemieux, Hull, and Selanne should probably all be higher. How much? Are they really better than Matthews and Stamkos, or not? How much do we weigh goals per game versus actually being on the ice and scoring for duration? Who has the best individual seasons vs career? Who else belongs?

A problem these talks often hit is a refusal to acknowledge that yes, some current players could actually be better than childhood heroes. Knocking Gretzky to 2 is a good start to defusing that nonsense.
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Mike Bossy.

Played 10 seasons. First nine seasons didn't score fewer than 51 goals in a season. 10th season, through a significant back injury, scored 38 goals in 63 games and promptly retired.

Probably the best pure goal scorer of all time. 573 goals in 752 games (0.76 goals per game) and scored another 85 goals in 129 playoff games (0.66 goals per game)... in just 10 seasons!

Ovi's the GoAT, but I do wonder how many goals a healthier Bossy scores over 18 seasons.
 
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CanadianFlyer88 said:
Mike Bossy.

Played 10 seasons. First nine seasons didn't score fewer than 51 goals in a season. 10th season, through a significant back injury, scored 38 goals in 63 games and promptly retired.

Probably the best pure goal scorer of all time. 573 goals in 752 games (0.76 goals per game) and scored another 85 goals in 129 playoff games (0.66 goals per game)... in just 10 seasons!

Ovi's the GoAT, but I do wonder how many goals a healthier Bossy scores over 18 seasons.
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RIGHT. I knew I left someone big off that list. And he was pretty much a cripple in various ways most of the way. Weren't his knees huge trouble?
 
Beef Invictus said:
I'm very interested in having such discussions. I'm also very interested in removing a major avenue for bad-faithing it that we've routinely gotten from people who have their minds short circuit over a non North American at the top.

I have simple methods to start with and make a framework.

Most times leading league:

OV: 9
Gretzky: 5
Richard: 5
Howe: 4
Matthews: 3
Stamkos: 2
Hull: 2
Lemieux: 2
Bure: 2

Now we can start using our brainmeat to work around. The pure force of OV leading 9 times over such a long period stands on its own. How do we compensate for lower competition for Richard and Howe? Lemieux, Hull, and Selanne could possibly all be higher. How much? Are they really better than Matthews and Stamkos, or not? How much do we weigh goals per game versus actually being on the ice and scoring for duration? Who has the best individual seasons vs career? Who else belongs?

A problem these talks often hit is a refusal to acknowledge that yes, some current players could actually be better than childhood heroes. Knocking Gretzky to 2 is a good start to defusing that nonsense.
Click to expand...
It is kind of mindblowing though that Gretzky has managed to stay at the top of the goalscoring list for so long when he was actually a playmaker and not a pure goalscorer.
He still has more assists than any other player in history has points which is insane in itself.

Ovechkin obviously has been helped a lot by his durability. He's basically never injured and he's managed to play at the top level in the league for nearly 20 years now. That alone is impressive, especially when you consider that he's never shied away from the physical side of the game. Dishing out hits, taking hits when necessary. It's a big advantage to have the body and the physical tools to last that long and don't break down.

All in all I think we've been fortunate to watch a player like Ovechkin in his prime because they don't come around often.
 
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Strawberry Fields said:
On a wider scope, he also missed his "true" rookie year due to lockout, 34 games in 2012 due to lockout, and probably about 35-40ish games due to Covid related shutdowns.
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Yeah well, but lockout and not playing those games in NHL but KHL instead also reduced some wear and tear on his body. So, it's not such simple math as ''let's project his approx goal pace for games missed''
 
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Rebels57 said:
To be fair, Gretzky also lost games due to a lock-out in 94-95.
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Fair point. I'd say that Ovi definitely got shafted by circumstances beyond his control than Wayne, though. Between lockouts and Covid, that's close to two full seasons combined... assuming he comes over right away in 2004. In which case, he's probably not coming close to sniffing 50 goals as a rookie on a bottom feeder under DPE rules.

And obviously Ovi wasnt the only one negatively impacted by all those stoppages. You just have to wonder how much faster he breaks the record if he even just gets full 12-13 and 20-21 seasons, given that he's only four away as is.
 
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They’ve played a difference of 4 Regular Season NHL Games. None of these arguments are worth a wit. Ovechkin is a compiler at this point in his career. It’s Pete Rose all over again where people have to write flowery bullshit to justify why he can’t play anymore.

We do all realize that Gretzky’s missing pro Goals from his teens too, right?

As CF88 said, Bossy is the argument. Although I will insist until I’m blue in the face that peak Stamkos is criminally underrated and was on that tier. He just didn’t sustain it.
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
They’ve played a difference of 4 Regular Season NHL Games. None of these arguments are worth a wit. Ovechkin is a compiler at this point in his career. It’s Pete Rose all over again where people have to write flowery bullshit to justify why he can’t play anymore.

We do all realize that Gretzky’s missing pro Goals from his teens too, right?

As CF88 said, Bossy is the argument. Although I will insist until I’m blue in the face that peak Stamkos is criminally underrated and was on that tier. He just didn’t sustain it.
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Compiler? He's leading his team to the best record in the league. He's actually scoring meaningful goals. Some are empty letters but he doesn't have that many more than Gretzky and if he plays next year (which I'm not sure he will) he will have more non empty net goals than Gretzky.
 
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TCTC said:
It is kind of mindblowing though that Gretzky has managed to stay at the top of the goalscoring list for so long when he was actually a playmaker and not a pure goalscorer.
He still has more assists than any other player in history has points which is insane in itself.

Ovechkin obviously has been helped a lot by his durability. He's basically never injured and he's managed to play at the top level in the league for nearly 20 years now. That alone is impressive, especially when you consider that he's never shied away from the physical side of the game. Dishing out hits, taking hits when necessary. It's a big advantage to have the body and the physical tools to last that long and don't break down.

All in all I think we've been fortunate to watch a player like Ovechkin in his prime because they don't come around often.
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I reject the notion that Gretzky wouldn't be a dominant goal scorer if his prime were today. You can watch old game tapes. Not just highlights, but the entirety of what he did. McDavid comes to mind in terms of the sheer fakery making people look flatfooted and dumb. Butterfly goaltending potentially makes life easier for Gretzky; that guy was a master of changing his shot motion mid-swing to f*** up the timing and make goalies sell out, and then he's shoot for the openings they left while they recovered. With pinpoint accuracy.
 
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Beef Invictus said:
I reject the notion that Gretzky wouldn't be a dominant goal scorer if his prime were today. You can watch old game tapes. Not just highlights, but the entirety of what he did. McDavid comes to mind in terms of the sheer fakery making people look flatfooted and dumb. Butterfly goaltending potentially makes life easier for Gretzky; that guy was a master of changing his shot motion mid-swing to f*** up the timing and make goalies sell out, and then he's shoot for the openings they left while they recovered. With pinpoint accuracy.
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He definitely was an accurate shooter, especially in his first 10 years where his S% was consistently high. I think a player who was so far above his peers can thrive in any era. Be it as a playmaker or a goalscorer.

Compared to Gretzky Ovechkin is more the "just blast it from anywhere" type of shooter. He will have needed almost 2,000 more shots on goal when he eventually passes Gretzky (although I guess you can argue different goalies and all that).
I didn't even realize until now that Ovechkin's the all time shots on goal leader by some margin. 528 in 2008/09 has to be the highest ever in one season.
 
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