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NHL Talk Miscellaneous NHL Discussion CIX: Processing a Tremendous Amount of Insane Information

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deadhead said:
My point was more that Gudas was a really good 3rd pair D-man, but that's a far more sheltered role.

Provorov was given too much responsibility too fast and never grew into the role.
How much was bad coaching (i.e. desperation given the alternatives), how much was Provorov being stubborn?
Though in the 2018 playoffs, Ghost went MIA while Provorov shined. But he never was able to regain that level of play.
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I know what you're saying. I just don't think role factors into this particular discussion when it comes to Provorov. It's pretty reasonable to want a positive impact from a guy on your All Century Team first and foremost. Picking a corner case here and there as a point in his favor rather proves my point. The only meat there is narrow bands that required squinting. Now if you want to tell me that you prefer one of the other guys mentioned to Coburn because his role was the 2nd guy on his own pair, fair enough.

We've also had this Gudas conversation many times before. I think he was a 2nd pairing guy. I know you don't. Reasonable disagreement and all of that.
 
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Strawberry Fields said:
None of this means a thing, but Mason deserves a spot imo. Ignoring the fact that the guy who was on his way to potentially making this list has been essentially unpersoned, there's seriously no one better than Cechmanek or Boucher in 25 ****ing years? And surely there's a better choice than Provy for the fourth d spot, too?

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Mason not making it is a joke. He had 30 more wins than Boosh and a .918 SV% versus .904.

Beef Invictus said:
Saying Voracek was second fiddle to Giroux is like complaining Malkin is second fiddle to Crosby. Voracek remained a great player away from Giroux. It's like the debunked argument that LeClair was a product of Lindros.
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I’m just glad Voracek and his weak wrist shot was removed from PP1 in time for the Flyers to coincidentally have the league’s worst powerplay by a mile. :laugh:
 
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Curufinwe said:
Mason not making it is a joke. He had 30 more wins than Boosh and a .918 SV% versus .904.


I’m just glad Voracek and his weak wrist shot was removed from PP1 in time for the Flyers to coincidentally have the league’s worst powerplay by a mile. :laugh:
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I have a strong feeling that the people running the Flyers began listening to the fans. There was years of shrieking about how we have "too many playmakers" and need to load up on shooters. They've done that and the results are bad.
 
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Beef Invictus said:
I have a strong feeling that the people running the Flyers began listening to the fans. There was years of shrieking about how we have "too many playmakers" and need to load up on shooters. They've done that and the results are bad.
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Where do you come up with this stuff.

1) Brink, Andrae aren't playmaker types? Traded for Rizzo, drafted Barkey and Ciernak.

2) what shooters, Tippett b/c they couldn't pry away Lundell, Foerster who is an all around forward, Gauthier, who else? Gendron is a 7th rd pick, at that point they're just looking for outliers.
 
deadhead said:
Where do you come up with this stuff.

1) Brink, Andrae aren't playmaker types? Traded for Rizzo, drafted Barkey and Ciernak.

2) what shooters, Tippett b/c they couldn't pry away Lundell, Foerster who is an all around forward, Gauthier, who else? Gendron is a 7th rd pick, at that point they're just looking for outliers.
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Where do I come up with it? Their actions. The things they've done. They things they emphasize. The way they actively try to beat playmaking out of their prospects. Who they value and who they don't. Human Turret Tippett is their ideal forward. They by and large loathe their playmakers. Their coach has spoken out against it, repeatedly, and his actions back up those words.

Andrae is a hilarious example by the way. Proves my point. And the longer Brink is here, the less he will make plays. That's what they do. That's how it always goes. Farabee is a great example. Frost has been substantially reigned in as well. Couturier neutered. Foerster turned into a grinder. York started with reliable offense and that's gone. Risto is devoid of offense now too.
 
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Beef Invictus said:
Where do I come up with it? Their actions. The things they've done. They things they emphasize. The way they actively try to beat playmaking out of their prospects. Who they value and who they don't. Human Turret Tippett is their ideal forward. They by and large loathe their playmakers. Their coach has spoken out against it, repeatedly, and his actions back up those words.

Andrae is a hilarious example by the way. Proves my point. And the longer Brink is here, the less he will make plays. That's what they do. That's how it always goes. Farabee is a great example. Frost has been substantially reigned in as well. Couturier neutered. Foerster turned into a grinder. York started with reliable offense and that's gone. Risto is devoid of offense now too.
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In other words, when you don't have a response, just complain.

Couts isn't neutered, he never was a great offensive center in his prime, he blossomed with G at LW b/c G was a great playmaker. Without G, and less short area burst after his surgeries, he's a defense first center.

Foerster "turned into a grinder," - what do you think his skill set is? Certainly not a playmaker. Physical winger with a good shot, high IQ and good vision. A prototype power forward.

Farabee was never a playmaker, his strong point is IQ and the ability to shoot in close.

Brink is the playmaker on the Cates line, he's just having a period of bad puck luck.

Andrae is a temporary victim of a numbers game. He'll be back. Hopefully he won't be terminated.
Frost has been given every opportunity the last couple years, gets the most ice time with the best offensive wingers. He hasn't been "reigned in," he's just not that good.
 
deadhead said:
In other words, when you don't have a response, just complain.

Couts isn't neutered, he never was a great offensive center in his prime, he blossomed with G at LW b/c G was a great playmaker. Without G, and less short area burst after his surgeries, he's a defense first center.

Foerster "turned into a grinder," - what do you think his skill set is? Certainly not a playmaker. Physical winger with a good shot, high IQ and good vision. A prototype power forward.

Farabee was never a playmaker, his strong point is IQ and the ability to shoot in close.

Brink is the playmaker on the Cates line, he's just having a period of bad puck luck.

Andrae is a temporary victim of a numbers game. He'll be back. Hopefully he won't be terminated.
Frost has been given every opportunity the last couple years, gets the most ice time with the best offensive wingers. He hasn't been "reigned in," he's just not that good.
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I literally gave you a response with examples. You're full of shit.

Foerster did have playmaking skills evident, and they made sure to get rid of those as fast as they could. Couturier was absolutely a great playmaking center. Farabee was absolutely a playmaker. Brink is young and will have it beaten out of him like the above examples, unless he goes the TK/Ghost route and wisely actively ignores the team. Frost has been given-f*** all. He's been shafted at every turn. He didn't get time with "the best wingers" this year until what, this last week? And the results are immediately great. He has been reigned in. Hell, we have seen Michkov completely neutered after the one game where Tortorella went into a rage over him using too much skill. We've watched all this happen in real-time, and you're lying to us to try and say the obvious things that are clearly happening, aren't happening. It's like pointing at LA and saying "there is no fire. There was never a fire. Fire isn't real."

Zamula has had "put on weight" pounded into him every offseason and it has corroded his skating, too, on the subject of piss-poor development processes.

You are always wrong. All your predictions go wrong. Someday you should ask why that is? Maybe you should try accepting reality instead of fighting it in defense of failures.
 
Beef Invictus said:
I literally gave you a response with examples. You're full of shit.

Foerster did have playmaking skills evident, and they made sure to get rid of those as fast as they could. Couturier was absolutely a great playmaking center. Farabee was absolutely a playmaker. Brink is young and will have it beaten out of him like the above examples, unless he goes the TK/Ghost route and wisely actively ignores the team. Frost has been given-f*** all. He's been shafted at every turn. He didn't get time with "the best wingers" this year until what, this last week? And the results are immediately great. He has been reigned in. Hell, we have seen Michkov completely neutered after the one game where Tortorella went into a rage over him using too much skill. We've watched all this happen in real-time, and you're lying to us to try and say the obvious things that are clearly happening, aren't happening. It's like pointing at LA and saying "there is no fire. There was never a fire. Fire isn't real."

Zamula has had "put on weight" pounded into him every offseason and it has corroded his skating, too, on the subject of piss-poor development processes.

You are always wrong. All your predictions go wrong. Someday you should ask why that is? Maybe you should try accepting reality instead of fighting it in defense of failures.
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When was Couts a "great playmaking center" without G at LW?

Zamula's top speed last four years, 19.15, 20.67, 20.60, 20.18
He's always been slow, he's always been well below average in 20+ bursts. 0, 2, 8, 3.
Over the last 3 years, he has steadily improved offensively and defensively.

Torts went into a rage over Michkov using too much skill? Really?

Frost:
2024-25: Michkov 269, Tippett 256, TK 117, Laughton 84, Foerster 71
2023-24: Tippett 412, Atkinson 266, TK 261, Farabee 246, Foerster 230
So much for not getting time with the "best wingers."

Fire isn't real, it's actually infrared radiation from bird drones.
 
deadhead said:
When was Couts a "great playmaking center" without G at LW?
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Most of his career. Have you not watched him? The guy even changed how he set up various players depending on who he was with based on their strengths!!!! Guy might be overall the smartest playmaker the team has had. He's certainly high on the list. Unholy shit, batman, the denial.

deadhead said:
Zamula's top speed last four years, 19.15, 20.67, 20.60, 20.18
He's always been slow, he's always been well below average in 20+ bursts. 0, 2, 8, 3.
Over the last 3 years, he has steadily improved offensively and defensively.
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Truly top speed is the ONLY measure of skating ability.

Except he hasn't, has he? He's regressed defensively in several ways, especially in transition where he used to be great.

deadhead said:
Torts went into a rage over Michkov using too much skill? Really?
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Yes. For a guy who claims to pay attention to Tortorella, you sure don't.

deadhead said:
Frost:
2024-25: Michkov 269, Tippett 256, TK 117, Laughton 84, Foerster 71
2023-24: Tippett 412, Atkinson 266, TK 261, Farabee 246, Foerster 230
So much for not getting time with the "best wingers."
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Those aren't the best wingers.

deadhead said:
Fire isn't real, it's actually infrared radiation from bird drones.
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Drones aren't real.
 
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BackToTheBrierePatch said:
I don’t think people appreciated just how good he was on both sides of the puck. First team easy.
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For his Flyers career yes. I’m just talking about the 2000s when this was based off of.

I was still youngish but I vaguely remember Johnsson was the guy during that time. Could be wrong though. I also remember my dad used to complain about Desjardins all the time so that could be a factor in my memory. :laugh:
 
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