Mikko Rantanen Part III

[Barklez]

I hate being this guy but if it’s going to keep coming up in this thread...

com·ple·men·ta·ry
ˌkämpləˈment(ə)rē/
adjective

1. combining in such a way as to enhance or emphasize the qualities of each other or another.


is not the same as


com·pli·men·ta·ry
ˌkämpləˈmen(t)ərē,ˌkämpləˈmentrē/
adjective
1. expressing a compliment; praising or approving.


Pay it forward!

 

[MarkT]

I hate being this guy but if it’s going to keep coming up in this thread...

com·ple·men·ta·ry
ˌkämpləˈment(ə)rē/
adjective

1. combining in such a way as to enhance or emphasize the qualities of each other or another.


is not the same as


com·pli·men·ta·ry
ˌkämpləˈmen(t)ərē,ˌkämpləˈmentrē/
adjective
1. expressing a compliment; praising or approving.


Pay it forward!

But that's what I meant. Rants is always saying nice things about MacKinnon, and that's why they both produce so many points!

 

[cgf]

But that's what I meant. Rants is always saying nice things about MacKinnon, and that's why they both produce so many points!

Morale is a hugely under-rated factor now-a-days

 

[McMetal]

Delete.

 

[Iceberg]

You're completely and utterly alone on this and yet you're still pushing it? I guess you're consistent at least.

I didn't know we all had to agree on this subject, am i not allowed to express my opinion in here?

You see, you are acting like a fan, while i'm trying to think like the GM. You are excited by the year we are having and it clouds your judgment (not that it was ever very good in your case). You can't even think about what could go wrong for Rantanen and the entire team next year. But let's see:

1) This is the Avalanche, we've had two cinderela seasons over the past decade and they were followed by crap seasons, so there is a distinct possibilite that we get back down to earth next season.

2) MacKinnon is having a Hart worthy season, and it has had an obvious impact on Rantanen's numbers. Will MacKinnon keep this 1.39 PPG pace through next season? I doubt he will and therefore there is a good chance Rantanen won't keep his PPG pace either.

3) Injuries. What if Mackinnon goes down with a serious injurie and has to miss half the season? How would that affect Rantanen's play and production? Or Rantanen, what if Rantanen gets an injury and has to play "banged up" for a chunk of the season, affecting his play and production?

4) There are more than 20 players that are at a PPG pace or higher this season, when was the last time this happened? Is this a new trend? Or maybe the numbers are going down next season?

If this were the last year of his ELC i could see him demand the same deal Draisaitl got, but this is not, Sakic doesn't have to close a deal right now. Many things could happen in an 82 game season.

If he can keep this kind of production, great!! Pay him 9M, 10M, at least you are way more confident that he is "the real deal" so to speak.

But there is a good chance his production drops to 0.80 - 0.90 PPG (and that is still good), that would give him 65-75 points. If that happens you can give him the same 8M contract people are suggesting to give him right now. If for some reason his production drops a little more you can sign him for even less.

So, unless he is willing to sign this year and give Sakic a nice discount (closer to MacK's contract than Drai's) than Sakic can just wait another year. Like i said, no rush.

BTW, weren't you the one saying the Oilers overpaid Draisaitl after one great season and that his contract was bad? I could swear it was you.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

He's so getting paid.

 

[Iceberg]

Saving money is a good reason to rush.

6.5M to 7M or maybe, maybe 7.5M could be considered "saving money", anything over 7.5M is really not.

 

[Selzoons]

Have the Avalanche ever given out an 8 year contract? It also depends on the contract length that Rantanen wants but I don't think Sakic will deviate too far from MacKinnon and Landeskog's contract. 7 years at roughly 8.6-8.7% of the cap ceiling, which would be around $7m per year if the ceiling is $80M.

Rantanen's sophomore season is way better than anything MacKinnon and Landeskog did but at the end of the day they were still both top-2 pick Calder winners. Landeskog had the leadership intangibles and MacKinnon had the raw potential.

If MacKinnon was being paid more, it might be a different story but Rantanen is only a year younger. Their contracts will be signed under different circumstances but MacKinnon's will be brought up. "We don't mind paying Mikko more than Nate and he has earned it but..." It's easier to justify a complementary player getting 70% of McDavid's contract compared to 130% of MacKinnon's. They'll also be able to bring up Pastrnak's contract as a comparable winger who got 6 x $6.66M. Draisaitl can also play center and centers get paid more.

 

[Piestany88]

I didn't know we all had to agree on this subject, am i not allowed to express my opinion in here?

You see, you are acting like a fan, while i'm trying to think like the GM. You are excited by the year we are having and it clouds your judgment (not that it was ever very good in your case). You can't even think about what could go wrong for Rantanen and the entire team next year. But let's see:

1) This is the Avalanche, we've had two cinderela seasons over the past decade and they were followed by crap seasons, so there is a distinct possibilite that we get back down to earth next season.

2) MacKinnon is having a Hart worthy season, and it has had an obvious impact on Rantanen's numbers. Will MacKinnon keep this 1.39 PPG pace through next season? I doubt he will and therefore there is a good chance Rantanen won't keep his PPG pace either.

3) Injuries. What if Mackinnon goes down with a serious injurie and has to miss half the season? How would that affect Rantanen's play and production? Or Rantanen, what if Rantanen gets an injury and has to play "banged up" for a chunk of the season, affecting his play and production?

4) There are more than 20 players that are at a PPG pace or higher this season, when was the last time this happened? Is this a new trend? Or maybe the numbers are going down next season?

If this were the last year of his ELC i could see him demand the same deal Draisaitl got, but this is not, Sakic doesn't have to close a deal right now. Many things could happen in an 82 game season.

If he can keep this kind of production, great!! Pay him 9M, 10M, at least you are way more confident that he is "the real deal" so to speak.

But there is a good chance his production drops to 0.80 - 0.90 PPG (and that is still good), that would give him 65-75 points. If that happens you can give him the same 8M contract people are suggesting to give him right now. If for some reason his production drops a little more you can sign him for even less.

So, unless he is willing to sign this year and give Sakic a nice discount (closer to MacK's contract than Drai's) than Sakic can just wait another year. Like i said, no rush.

BTW, weren't you the one saying the Oilers overpaid Draisaitl after one great season and that his contract was bad? I could swear it was you.

Ya I think he gets 7 years × 6 mil , something close to Ehlers and Pasta

 

[Barklez]

I didn't know we all had to agree on this subject, am i not allowed to express my opinion in here?

You see, you are acting like a fan, while i'm trying to think like the GM. You are excited by the year we are having and it clouds your judgment (not that it was ever very good in your case). You can't even think about what could go wrong for Rantanen and the entire team next year. But let's see:

1) This is the Avalanche, we've had two cinderela seasons over the past decade and they were followed by crap seasons, so there is a distinct possibilite that we get back down to earth next season.

2) MacKinnon is having a Hart worthy season, and it has had an obvious impact on Rantanen's numbers. Will MacKinnon keep this 1.39 PPG pace through next season? I doubt he will and therefore there is a good chance Rantanen won't keep his PPG pace either.

3) Injuries. What if Mackinnon goes down with a serious injurie and has to miss half the season? How would that affect Rantanen's play and production? Or Rantanen, what if Rantanen gets an injury and has to play "banged up" for a chunk of the season, affecting his play and production?

4) There are more than 20 players that are at a PPG pace or higher this season, when was the last time this happened? Is this a new trend? Or maybe the numbers are going down next season?

If this were the last year of his ELC i could see him demand the same deal Draisaitl got, but this is not, Sakic doesn't have to close a deal right now. Many things could happen in an 82 game season.

If he can keep this kind of production, great!! Pay him 9M, 10M, at least you are way more confident that he is "the real deal" so to speak.

But there is a good chance his production drops to 0.80 - 0.90 PPG (and that is still good), that would give him 65-75 points. If that happens you can give him the same 8M contract people are suggesting to give him right now. If for some reason his production drops a little more you can sign him for even less.

So, unless he is willing to sign this year and give Sakic a nice discount (closer to MacK's contract than Drai's) than Sakic can just wait another year. Like i said, no rush.

BTW, weren't you the one saying the Oilers overpaid Draisaitl after one great season and that his contract was bad? I could swear it was you.

JFC, well at least we have somebody in here looking out for the good of the group, good thing you haven’t built yourself up about it at all

Everyone in here is trying to put themselves in Sakic’s shoes. It just so happens that most feel they’ve seen enough from Rantanen to warrant 7-8 long term, whether or not he keeps up his current pace.

Pretty rich though that you’re okay with giving him the money everyone is suggesting next year, after his play drops off, rather than right now when it can only really save the team money in the long term. While at the same time being prepared to give him ~25% more next year if he does keep up the same pace. Figure me that one

 

[BleedWell]

Ya I think he gets 7 years × 6 mil , something close to Ehlers and Pasta

Rantanen could very well hit 90 points this season. So why on earth he should take similar money as 64 point and 70 point players??

 

[Barklez]

Rantanen could very well hit 90 points this season. So why on earth he should take similar money as 64 point and 70 point players??

Some folks around here are going to be pretty upset by the number he ends up getting by the looks of things. PPG season at 21 as essentially 1 of 2 scoring threats on the team. He could be playing with Gretzky and he’d get paid.

As has been pointed out, the whole top line elevates each others’ games, doesn’t matter if he can go PPG in a vacuum - his value to the team isn’t based on him playing alone. You pay him to keep the top line in hockey this season together for a decade.

People that want him on a number closer to 6 better hope he’s the most humble guy on the planet and refuses to put-earn Mackinnon by that much. But it’s a business and this is how the cap works, Mack’s next deal will blow his out of the water. I wouldn’t be holding my breath.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I didn't know we all had to agree on this subject, am i not allowed to express my opinion in here?

You see, you are acting like a fan, while i'm trying to think like the GM. You are excited by the year we are having and it clouds your judgment (not that it was ever very good in your case). You can't even think about what could go wrong for Rantanen and the entire team next year. But let's see:

Not sure I've seen someone with a bigger superiority complex then you.

 

[Iceberg]

JFC, well at least we have somebody in here looking out for the good of the group, good thing you haven’t built yourself up about it at all

Everyone in here is trying to put themselves in Sakic’s shoes. It just so happens that most feel they’ve seen enough from Rantanen to warrant 7-8 long term, whether or not he keeps up his current pace.

Pretty rich though that you’re okay with giving him the money everyone is suggesting next year, after his play drops off, rather than right now when it can only really save the team money in the long term. While at the same time being prepared to give him ~25% more next year if he does keep up the same pace. Figure me that one

Like i said, you are not considering the possibilite that his production could drop to, let's say, 55 points. If that happens (and it wouldn't be absurd at all) you wouldn' like that Sakic had signed him to an 8x8 contract, when he absolutely didn't have to.

You are acting as if this is his contract year, that Sakic has to sign him this year, but this is not the case.

 

[Iceberg]

Not sure I've seen someone with a bigger superiority complex then you.

Aren't you that guy?!?!

 

[The Kingslayer]

He's so getting paid.

Mikko after the new contract

 

[cgf]

6.5M to 7M or maybe, maybe 7.5M could be considered "saving money", anything over 7.5M is really not.

Well that isn’t even mathematically true

7.5 < 9

 

[BleedWell]

Does anyone remember which Av's player has had the highest (xxmil/xxyears) contract? Is it Mac or someone else?

 

[AvsFan29]

Does anyone remember which Av's player has had the highest (xxmil/xxyears) contract? Is it Mac or someone else?

I'm pretty sure the Avs had the highest payroll in the league before the cap. Sakic/ Roy / Blake were making around 10mil. I may be wrong. I'm remembering this from when I was a kid nearly 20 years ago. Too lazy to look it up lol

 

[Jixer19]

I'm pretty sure the Avs had the highest payroll in the league before the cap. Sakic/ Roy / Blake were making around 10mil. I may be wrong. I'm remembering this from when I was a kid nearly 20 years ago. Too lazy to look it up lol

Close enough for sure. I remember something coming out after Roy retired, I think Avs offered him like 13M for one more year, he turned it down though obviously.

 

[Foppberg]

Close enough for sure. I remember something coming out after Roy retired, I think Avs offered him like 13M for one more year, he turned it down though obviously.

That's crazy when you really think about it. I'd do pretty much any job for one year if I got 13 million dollars.

 

[Barklez]

That's crazy when you really think about it. I'd do pretty much any job for one year if I got 13 million dollars.

Maybe he knew the team was going to suck and didn’t want to be blamed for their failures

 

[tigervixxxen]

Like i said, you are not considering the possibilite that his production could drop to, let's say, 55 points. If that happens (and it wouldn't be absurd at all) you wouldn' like that Sakic had signed him to an 8x8 contract, when he absolutely didn't have to.

You are acting as if this is his contract year, that Sakic has to sign him this year, but this is not the case.

Like I said it really does not matter what he drops to next season. When you've hit the echelon he's in now there's no yeah but or go out and prove it again. What's the worst case scenario to signing him now? He might get overpaid by 1M or so if he's just a 60 point player long term? It's not like 2 years down the road they'll say golly I wish we weren't stuck with this guy long term.

I also think it sends a message to the rest of the young guys that if you show up with a performance like he's had you will get taken care of. There is no need to get into a culture of nickel and dimeing your top guys just for the sake of it. If we are buying into this whole new culture, youth movement blah blah I do think it's important to lock him up. Do it before the stupid offer sheet talk can even begin or the threat of having another negotiation drag into camp.

They have basically just 3 guys signed long term. Maybe Mikko is the only expensive long term contract they need to worry about upcoming but who knows. Maybe one of the young guys breaks out next year and he's suddenly going to cost more than anticipated. I just think cost certainty is important for knowing how to build this thing moving forward. If they don't spend anything this summer they are in a better position to wait but if not then they are spending without knowing what one of their larger expenses will be. Waiting also puts the risk of the cap going up, comparables, Mikko scoring even more and all this for the benefit of what, not possibly overpaying a franchise player by a little.

He also should be getting paid this summer anyway as its his third professional year. He gave them a free ELC year by playing in the AHL on a contract that slid.

 

[Iceberg]

Like I said it really does not matter what he drops to next season. When you've hit the echelon he's in now there's no yeah but or go out and prove it again. What's the worst case scenario to signing him now? He might get overpaid by 1M or so if he's just a 60 point player long term? It's not like 2 years down the road they'll say golly I wish we weren't stuck with this guy long term.

My sense is that the last year has a bigger impact on the next contract (see Duchene), so yeah, i believe if we wait another year and Rantanen "regresses" it will have a big impact (just like if he has another PPG season it would give him more leverage).

I also think it sends a message to the rest of the young guys that if you show up with a performance like he's had you will get taken care of. There is no need to get into a culture of nickel and dimeing your top guys just for the sake of it. If we are buying into this whole new culture, youth movement blah blah I do think it's important to lock him up. Do it before the stupid offer sheet talk can even begin or the threat of having another negotiation drag into camp.

I've been very critical of the way this organization has conducted contract negotiations over the years with its young players, but it doesn't have to be one way or another. There is absolutely nothing wrong with waiting another year to give Rantanen his new deal. I've suggested i'd go up 7.5M to sign him one year in advance and i think its much more than fair, not a low ball offer by any means. If he says no, that would be his option.

I asked this before and got no answer: How many players have signed long term extension one year before their ELC expired? I can only remeber McDavid and Eichel, but i'm sure there are others. Still, i think its very rare.

They have basically just 3 guys signed long term. Maybe Mikko is the only expensive long term contract they need to worry about upcoming but who knows. Maybe one of the young guys breaks out next year and he's suddenly going to cost more than anticipated. I just think cost certainty is important for knowing how to build this thing moving forward. If they don't spend anything this summer they are in a better position to wait but if not then they are spending without knowing what one of their larger expenses will be. Waiting also puts the risk of the cap going up, comparables, Mikko scoring even more and all this for the benefit of what, not possibly overpaying a franchise player by a little.

I don't think our cap situation is going to change all that much from this year to next, there are only a few players worth big money and odds are slim that we get one of them.

He also should be getting paid this summer anyway as its his third professional year. He gave them a free ELC year by playing in the AHL on a contract that slid.

The organization doesn't own him anything, he was given the chance to stay in the NHL but he was not ready and the AHL route has proven to have been the best for his development.

Maybe if he had stayed and struggled, he wouldn't be the player he is today, and he would be on the final year of his ELC and not close to get the kind of raise he is going to get now.

 

[cgf]

Why do hockey fans think it's smarter to pinch pennies on stars than on depth players?