Mike Richards (Warning in OP)

[KingsFan7824]

It's a risk/reward thing, and at this point having a sub par defensive forward who has been struggling for months offensively on the point just isn't worth it. That is why they seem to be sticking with Slava.

If MR were playing better or the Kings didn't have Gabby maybe you do it to create more offense, but at this point the risk just isn't worth it, that PP should be plenty good enough to score with Kopi-Carter-Gaborik-Voynov and Doughty.

It should be, I agree.

For me, the risk would be worth taking because when they have put him out there, Richards is a different player at the point on the PP than anywhere else on the ice. Maybe it's because he's got more room out there, and he doesn't have to worry about his frail body as much. Whatever it is, his passes are usually crisper, and he doesn't fumble his shot. Everything he does is more direct and purposeful in that specific situation.

 

[etherialone]

Richards has scored 40 points making him tied for 45th in scoring among centers in the game. Right square in the middle of the pack for 2nd line centers. Second line centers like Miko Koivu, Olie Jokinen, Adam Henrique, Travis Zajac and Ryan Kessler to name a few. Kessler @ $5m per, Zajac $5.7 Jokinen $4.7 Koivu @$6.75 and Plekanec @ $5m leaving Richards right in there with his peers @ $5.75.

MR may not be scoring where we would like him to be but his scoring is right there among his peers for a second line center regardless of where he plays for us. Even then MR is still a monster of a big game player, had a solid playoffs for us last year and was critical to our winning the cup.

The guy is a winner and has been at every level of play. He brings a ton to our team and steps up big during the playoffs. I dont get all of the heavy criticism he is getting around here. He isnt the only player who's numbers are off but he seems to be this years target for whipping boy.

 

[Ollie Weeks]

I don't know if it's true doughty is bad on PP. On team Canada he was quick and effective. Maybe it's not his style of PP?

If he needs the best players to produce results, he's certainly not that great. At Sochi he was afforded more time and space, and the puck was on his stick less. The second part is critical. He should be a shooter, not a decision maker.

 

[kingsfan]

The point is that MR has been so crap this year, he might not be able to pull the obligatory "big game" player out of his ass again. If he has to save himself for big games only, then he needs to cut the trips to cold stone and get his ass in better shape

No, no he hasn't been 'crap' this season. He's not looking like an all-star, but he's not been crap. Time will tell on the big game aspect.

Richards has scored 40 points making him tied for 45th in scoring among centers in the game. Right square in the middle of the pack for 2nd line centers. Second line centers like Miko Koivu, Olie Jokinen, Adam Henrique, Travis Zajac and Ryan Kessler to name a few. Kessler @ $5m per, Zajac $5.7 Jokinen $4.7 Koivu @$6.75 and Plekanec @ $5m leaving Richards right in there with his peers @ $5.75.

MR may not be scoring where we would like him to be but his scoring is right there among his peers for a second line center regardless of where he plays for us. Even then MR is still a monster of a big game player, had a solid playoffs for us last year and was critical to our winning the cup.

The guy is a winner and has been at every level of play. He brings a ton to our team and steps up big during the playoffs. I dont get all of the heavy criticism he is getting around here. He isnt the only player who's numbers are off but he seems to be this years target for whipping boy.

This. I think some fans have unrealistic expectations of players. I too think Richards should have a few more goals and points but really, take away Kopitar and Carter and what player on the Kings hasn't seen their numbers hold or fall (and thus suffer) under TM or Sutter? We don't play Philly hockey, and if we did we'd see a 70 point Mike Richards and no Stanley Cup. We play Kings hockey, which means a lot of low quality shots, puck control, and wearing out the other team physically. That's not a system prone to huge offensive nights and as such a number of players, including Richards, haven't been putting up points. This isn't a Mike Richards only issue, just ask Dustin Brown.

 

[Herby]

Richards has scored 40 points making him tied for 45th in scoring among centers in the game. Right square in the middle of the pack for 2nd line centers. Second line centers like Miko Koivu, Olie Jokinen, Adam Henrique, Travis Zajac and Ryan Kessler to name a few. Kessler @ $5m per, Zajac $5.7 Jokinen $4.7 Koivu @$6.75 and Plekanec @ $5m leaving Richards right in there with his peers @ $5.75.

MR may not be scoring where we would like him to be but his scoring is right there among his peers for a second line center regardless of where he plays for us. Even then MR is still a monster of a big game player, had a solid playoffs for us last year and was critical to our winning the cup.

The guy is a winner and has been at every level of play. He brings a ton to our team and steps up big during the playoffs. I dont get all of the heavy criticism he is getting around here. He isnt the only player who's numbers are off but he seems to be this years target for whipping boy.

Once again, how many of those other centers have spent the vast majority of the year on the #1 PP and had a talent like Jeff Carter (a former league goal-scoring champion on their wing). I can buy the "nagging injury" or "flipping the switch excuse" but you can't sit here and defend his offensive production, there is a reason the guy has been demoted to fourth line center.

And how do you not get the heavy criticism TG. How else should the reaction be to a guy who's game both statistically and based on the eye test has fallen off a cliff compared to his prime years? And then throw in the contract situation and it's a serious cause for concern. Again you fall back on the "He is a winner" and no one disputes that in his prime he was, but are you really going to sit here and try and argue the player who won all those trophies in his prime is going to walk back through the door? You are talking about a guy who won a Gold Medal in 2010, how many teams would Canada have had to field in 2014 for MR to get a call TG, honestly, would he have made Team Canada's C team? It's the same situation with Albert Pujols, no one disputes he is a first ballot hall of famer and one of the best baseball players ever, but you can't judge his production and value as a player in 2014 based on what he did in 2009, that is the same way I think you have to look at MR.

And Ziggy, you mention SH points in trying to defend his stats. How about using it as another example of his game trending downwards. The guy was one of, if not the most dangerous player in the NHL shorthanded. He once had 7 SHG in a season for the Flyers, hell he struggled to reach 7 total this season.



When was the last time we saw anything like that in a Kings uniform. No way does he pull away like that in 2014.

 

[KingsFan7824]

No, no he hasn't been 'crap' this season. He's not looking like an all-star, but he's not been crap. Time will tell on the big game aspect.



This. I think some fans have unrealistic expectations of players. I too think Richards should have a few more goals and points but really, take away Kopitar and Carter and what player on the Kings hasn't seen their numbers hold or fall (and thus suffer) under TM or Sutter? We don't play Philly hockey, and if we did we'd see a 70 point Mike Richards and no Stanley Cup. We play Kings hockey, which means a lot of low quality shots, puck control, and wearing out the other team physically. That's not a system prone to huge offensive nights and as such a number of players, including Richards, haven't been putting up points. This isn't a Mike Richards only issue, just ask Dustin Brown.

Well the thing with Richards this year, and guys like Brown and Voynov, is that they haven't been playing the style you're talking about. All 3 guys have had bad seasons when it's come to giving the puck away. Like you said, scoring is one thing, Kings hockey is something else. If those 3 guys were playing Kings type hockey, the lack of scoring might not be such an issue.

All 3 have deserved their criticisms this season, but they've also earned some benefit of the doubt with their past results. That's why I'm willing to wait and see before condemning any and all of them.

 

[Herby]

All 3 have deserved their criticisms this season, but they've also earned some benefit of the doubt with their past results. That's why I'm willing to wait and see before condemning any and all of them.

That is a fair statement. I personally think he is done but can understand why people are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt into next season.

But I have no idea how anyone can be saying "his season isn't that bad" or "his numbers aren't that far off". The guy has had a terrible season all over the ice, I'm not amazed people are defending the player but amazed they are trying to defend his season.

 

[Telos]

That is a fair statement. I personally think he is done but can understand why people are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt into next season.

But I have no idea how anyone can be saying "his season isn't that bad" or "his numbers aren't that far off". The guy has had a terrible season all over the ice, I'm not amazed people are defending the player but amazed they are trying to defend his season.

It's because he was arguably our best forward during the last postseason, started this year on fire until the entire team tanked in December, and just about every players' stats on the team are down across the board. It's not like Pearson and Toffoli are setting the world on fire either in Richards's absence.

Most freely admit that he isn't the 70 point major hitter anymore, and he has been deficient defensively, but we are the #1 defensive team in the league, he's easily the best 2nd line center we've had in a very long time, and he deserves more than 3 months before he is labeled as Scott Gomez and declared to have his career characterized as "done".

Fan opinion changes on a dime. Last season, people were actually arguing that Quick was done, the injuries killed him, we should trade him for high value as he would never recover... At the beginning of this season, people were arguing that Kopitar was ruined and offensively impotent and therefore we should consider trading him for the highest value and moving on (all the while praising Richards and lavishing in main board threads about how great Richards is), now a couple months later it is love Kopitar and hate Richards.

Nobody is saying Richards is going to rebound and become the Flyer captain again, but he is certainly an impactful leader on this team, good for around 15+ goals and 55+ points per year, and a clutch playoff performer. I'd wait until the postseason before you bring out the guillotine.

 

[Herby]

It's because he was arguably our best forward during the last postseason, started this year on fire until the entire team tanked in December, and just about every players' stats on the team are down across the board. It's not like Pearson and Toffoli are setting the world on fire either in Richards's absence. Most freely admit that he isn't the 70 point major hitter anymore, and he has been deficient defensively, but we are the #1 defensive team in the league, he's easily the best 2nd line center we've had in a very long time, and he deserves more than 3 months before he is labeled as Scott Gomez and declared to have his career characterized as "done".

Again, that's fine. Arguing whether he is done or not is fine, he could totally turn it around, I don't think it's going to happen, but it definitely could and I totally understand people arguing that end of it.

But you can't sit here and say his season hasn't been poor. There is no defending the lack of offense, the terrible defensive stats, the lack of speed and the disappearance of his physical play.

 

[Telos]

Again, that's fine. Arguing whether he is done or not is fine, he could totally turn it around, I don't think it's going to happen, but it definitely could and I totally understand people arguing that end of it.

But you can't sit here and say his season hasn't been poor. There is no defending the lack of offense, the terrible defensive stats, the lack of speed and the disappearance of his physical play.

I added and finished that post. And, we're not, we're just pointing out that his offensive slump is similar to Kopitar's at the beginning of the year when some were screaming to trade him and that he had been ruined. Some of us get sick and tired of hearing it screamed every day that he's slumping, especially when the team is playing well, and it becomes a broken record when we aren't. We know that we all need someone to whip, but seriously... I can point to many other Kings that are having severely off years and bad seasons, but the only one being sensationalized by Kings fans is Richards.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Again, that's fine. Arguing whether he is done or not is fine, he could totally turn it around, I don't think it's going to happen, but it definitely could and I totally understand people arguing that end of it.

But you can't sit here and say his season hasn't been poor. There is no defending the lack of offense, the terrible defensive stats, the lack of speed and the disappearance of his physical play.

Once again, how many of those other centers have spent the vast majority of the year on the #1 PP and had a talent like Jeff Carter (a former league goal-scoring champion on their wing). I can buy the "nagging injury" or "flipping the switch excuse" but you can't sit here and defend his offensive production, there is a reason the guy has been demoted to fourth line center.

Herby, you keep saying this but others keep telling you it isn't true. What are your offensive expectations for him? Are you talking goals outside of straight production? Because I did a side-by-side for you yesterday with comparable stats and yes, most of the comparable guys are on the PP as well with maybe less talent but more production. I agree with you on the other stuff for the most part (because to me that's the bigger problem and suggests injury/conditioning/head issues) but I can't get behind the repeated notion that there's a lack of offense.

 

[Herby]

I added and finished that post. And, we're not

You might not be, but plenty of others are.

And you mention "slump", I guess I have a much different opinion of what a slump is than you do.

If someone has a bad 10-15 games it's a slump. If someone had a bad season it's a bad season.

 

[Herby]

Herby, you keep saying this but others keep telling you it isn't true. What are your offensive expectations for him? Are you talking goals outside of straight production? Because I did a side-by-side for you yesterday with comparable stats and yes, most of the comparable guys are on the PP as well with maybe less talent but more production. I agree with you on the other stuff for the most part (because to me that's the bigger problem and suggests injury/conditioning/head issues) but I can't get behind the repeated notion that there's a lack of offense.

Since the middle of December, Mike Richards has played 41 games, he has 4 goals and 9 assists. How is lack of offensive production not a valid criticism of his season. The guy just cracked double digit goals in Game 71 of the season.

As for your other point, someone who has spent the majority of the season on the PP and playing with an elite offensive player 5 on 5 I don't think 20 goals and 60 points is such a ridiculous expectation. 10 goals and 40-45 points while providing very little defensively or physically just ain't going to cut it.

But, let me flip it on you guys. I have argued what he has done to, IMO, warrant calling this a poor season. What has he accomplished this season that makes this a respectable season, since some have taken up the cause that this isn't a poor season. TG and Ziggy, what has MR done in 2013-2014 that you would consider an accomplishment?

 

[Ollie Weeks]

And offensively, Richards can be summarized as being off his game since mid December. Not Thanksgiving, not November, not October. December. When the rest of the team, like him, suddenly lurched sideways off the road.

If Richards keeps producing at roughly #2C production, the other emerging flaws in his game (if it isn't just an off-season) can be covered by our team easily. I think a lot of people's problem with him largely lies in his near PPG pace early on and a regression to the mean since, coupled with his other problems.

I have no problem mixing and matching our depth from time to time in order to more readily roll 4 lines, or to reset a player's game, or however else to benefit the team from a players presence. The notion that our Cap space is shot from doing so is overblown in the extreme.

 

[Herby]

10-12G and 40-45 pts isn't exactly 2C production, not on a contending team that is built on "strength down the middle"

And as for the other shortcomings maybe being just an off-season, want to take a guess what forward lead the Kings in GA per 60 minutes last season?

I'd argue that the offense has a better chance of reappearing than the defensive or physical game.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Since the middle of December, Mike Richards has played 41 games, he has 4 goals and 9 assists. How is lack of offensive production not a valid criticism of his season. The guy just cracked double digit goals in Game 71 of the season.

As for your other point, someone who has spent the majority of the season on the PP and playing with an elite offensive player 5 on 5 I don't think 20 goals and 60 points is such a ridiculous expectation. 10 goals and 40-45 points while providing very little defensively or physically just ain't going to cut it.

But, let me flip it on you guys. I have argued what he has done to, IMO, warrant calling this a poor season. What has he accomplished this season that makes this a respectable season, since some have taken up the cause that this isn't a poor season. TG and Ziggy, what has MR done in 2013-2014 that you would consider an accomplishment?

Fair enough and that's a good point in relation to our slump too.

to me, I agree, I'd like to see more goals, but 50-60 points is good production for a 2C. I'd actually argue if we were getting more out of our 1C and 3C then his numbers would maybe be more in perspective. 60 points isn't a ridiculous expectation, but it's pretty rare for most 2Cs around the league to hit that every year, so to hold that as a bar for a successful year is maybe a little unfair. Just imo though.

I don't personally consider it a successful season for Richards and I doubt anyone will try to sell it as otherwise. I'm just pointing out the production is actually there (overall, I mean) and the offensive issue is overblown because of our team. I definitely expect and demand improvement next year, or we have issues, but for all we know, this ends up like that season in philly where he finishes the year with broken wrist and separated shoulder and whatever. Totally speculation on my part, and I'm not making excuses for him, but I think even his biggest haters will agree that something is totally off, but that something could be anything from an injury to he really is washed up (not likely in my humble opinion, at least not in a permanent way).

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Richards wasn't on the top PP unit last night yet it continued to suck. Should he still be faulted for that?

 

[Reclamation Project]

He makes it better. The Kings should roll - Muzzin, Martinez, Richards (or Kopitar), Gaborik, Carter for a couple tries and see how that works.

 

[Herby]

Richards wasn't on the top PP unit last night yet it continued to suck. Should he still be faulted for that?

They scored a goal. The refs took it away but they scored a goal.

And what is the PP% since the Gaborik trade? I believe Bob said the Kings PP was 9 of it's last 37 or something during the game.

 

[etherialone]

Once again, how many of those other centers have spent the vast majority of the year on the #1 PP and had a talent like Jeff Carter (a former league goal-scoring champion on their wing). I can buy the "nagging injury" or "flipping the switch excuse" but you can't sit here and defend his offensive production, there is a reason the guy has been demoted to fourth line center.

And how do you not get the heavy criticism TG. How else should the reaction be to a guy who's game both statistically and based on the eye test has fallen off a cliff compared to his prime years? And then throw in the contract situation and it's a serious cause for concern. Again you fall back on the "He is a winner" and no one disputes that in his prime he was, but are you really going to sit here and try and argue the player who won all those trophies in his prime is going to walk back through the door? You are talking about a guy who won a Gold Medal in 2010, how many teams would Canada have had to field in 2014 for MR to get a call TG, honestly, would he have made Team Canada's C team? It's the same situation with Albert Pujols, no one disputes he is a first ballot hall of famer and one of the best baseball players ever, but you can't judge his production and value as a player in 2014 based on what he did in 2009, that is the same way I think you have to look at MR..

Sorry it has taken a bit to get back Herby.

I think it is at least partly a situation of managing expectations. I simply don't expect that same MR that we got back during his first season with the Kings (where he put in 44 pts 18g/26a which he is on track to repeat) and what he did before he got here is sort of irrelevant to me as he is playing in an entirely different system.

If I did then the debate would be what we think MR would produce if he were still in Philly which we really can't know for certain. MR is struggling in some aspects of his game but his point production isn't one of them or it isn't to me. I would rather he have more goals then he does today but that isn't as important to me as the fact that he is on track to put up his 44ish points and be healthy/ready to step up his game during the playoffs. That and the fact that even though he has had his struggles he has still been solid to very much so in his defencive game which is a large part of what I expect from him.

I am not saying his game is where it was in Philly but he is a much more rounded player here then he was when he was there. As to the other centers that I have used in my comparison and who they play with well Koivu has played a bunch of top line minutes and his share of PP time. Same can be said for Kessler at times.

Last season MR had 30pts in 48 games (10g/20a) and it wouldn't be a reach for him to have hit the 50+pt spot if he had a full season but it is an even safer bet that he would have been able to at least match his 44pts that he had in his first season as a King. To me that would have been just fine because of everything else he brings to the team.

So I am not saying that MR is having a great season or willing to hazard a guess at what next year will look like for him let alone any after that but I do think that his game has been picking up lately and that he should be ready for the playoffs where history has shown him to be right about a point per game player that is critical to our success.

So like I said my expectations for him are to produce at least 44pts give or take during the regular season and then to turn it on during the playoffs. In his 2 previous seasons on the Kings it is what he has done and I haven't seen anything that makes me think he won't do it again this year. MR was critical not only to our winning our first cup but I think he has been a very critical player in helping us develop the winning attitude that we have today.

I mean we are debating rather or not a player is still capable of helping us win another cup instead of just making the playoffs and to me that is a huge change for the better. The way I see it, no MR, no cup. I think we are in the same spot this year and that we need MR to do his usual elevation of his game if we hope to win the cup.

Next season I don't know about yet but if you told me today that MR would produce 44pts and that we would make the playoffs again when everything was said and done I would say "o.k.".

But I understand where you are coming from, I just don't see things the same way. Agree to disagree I guess.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

They scored a goal. The refs took it away but they scored a goal.

And what is the PP% since the Gaborik trade? I believe Bob said the Kings PP was 9 of it's last 37 or something during the game.

But you saw what I saw as well, other than the canceled out goal, the Kings were horrendous on the PP. And that's mainly due to the stupidity of Doughty and Voynov, fiddling with the puck and not getting shots through.

 

[etherialone]

But you saw what I saw as well, other than the canceled out goal, the Kings were horrendous on the PP. And that's mainly due to the stupidity of Doughty and Voynov, fiddling with the puck and not getting shots through.

Not disagreeing with you Ziggy but to me that is a classic symptom of players thinking too much and that typically comes from everyone trying too hard to play a specific system. I am not saying that it is all coaching but I can see where there is a problem in that area too.

Not blaming the coaching staff entirely but they are culpable along with the players to me.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Not disagreeing with you Ziggy but to me that is a classic symptom of players thinking too much and that typically comes from everyone trying too hard to play a specific system. I am not saying that it is all coaching but I can see where there is a problem in that area too.

Not blaming the coaching staff entirely but they are culpable along with the players to me.

I'd love to get a definitive answer on that. Is it the coaches/system, or is it the players? I know there's no way to do it though. San Jose's PP% isn't that much better than the Kings. Anaheim has a bottom 10 PP too. How?

All I can think of is that I can't imagine the PP system calls for everyone to stand around on the outside, with nobody in front of the net.

Go back to 09-10, when Doughty had a career high of 59 points, and Kopitar had 30 goals and 80 points. The Kings had the 7th best PP in the league. Who was the coach? Who was the assistant coach running the PP?

 

[Steve Zissou]

The guy is a winner and has been at every level of play. He brings a ton to our team and steps up big during the playoffs. I dont get all of the heavy criticism he is getting around here. He isnt the only player who's numbers are off but he seems to be this years target for whipping boy.

I think people are harping on the guy because his speed just isn't there this year. He's gased after a few strides.

His passing is horrendous.

He loses board battles.

What makes Mike Richards who he is is all the intangibles he brings to the game, and that's why he's won at every level. Once he stops bringing all of those, then he's a shell of his former self.

I'm as big of a Mike Richards fan as they come - I have no doubt he'll kick it into overdrive down the stretch.

If both he and Dustin Brown wake up, we'll be deadly in the post season once again. ::giddy::

 

[damacles1156]

I'd love to get a definitive answer on that. Is it the coaches/system, or is it the players? I know there's no way to do it though. San Jose's PP% isn't that much better than the Kings. Anaheim has a bottom 10 PP too. How?

All I can think of is that I can't imagine the PP system calls for everyone to stand around on the outside, with nobody in front of the net.

Go back to 09-10, when Doughty had a career high of 59 points, and Kopitar had 30 goals and 80 points. The Kings had the 7th best PP in the league. Who was the coach? Who was the assistant coach running the PP?

Terry Murray and Jamie Kompon.