Mike Bossy vs Pavel Bure who's the better goal scorer all time?

Who's the better goal scorer all time Mike Bossy or Pavel Bure?

  • Mike Bossy

    Votes: 49 83.1%
  • Pavel Bure

    Votes: 10 16.9%

  • Total voters
    59

Sentinel

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How many times did Bure score 17 goals in the playoffs?
His 1994 run was up with the best of them (16 goals in a much lower scoring environment) and he had nobody near Trottier's caliber at center.


Bossy scored 58 goals and 117 points and turned Sutter, a 45 point defensive depth center, into a 100+ point player the year Trottier was too injured to play his usual role lol

It's revisionist history to diminish Bossy. He was the straw that stirred the drink offensively for the NYI and at the time, everyone knew he was the guy elevating the offense of those around him.

Bure was the ultimate Individualist, who would do figure 8's looking to cherry pick with his acceleration.

Now Paul Coffey and Bure would have gotten along splendidly.

But it's revisionist history to say that he "stirred the drink" for the Islanders. Offensively, it was clearly Trottier (who won Hart and was a runner-up, while Bossy never rose above #3), and overall it was Potvin.

FWIW: I am not belittling Bossy. But he is clearly below Ovy, Gretzky, Hull Sr, Esposito, Howe, Richard, and Lemieux.

What is "revisionist history" is to claim that Bure was an individualist. On those early 90s Canucks and 00s Panthers, he was the sole offensive weapon. He was in an entirely different situation from Bossy.
 
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MadLuke

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Bossy retired just as his prime ended. He avoided the normal tail-end-of-career drop-off.
This is usually a big deal, but Bossy-Bure you can more do it career vs career because they both did not play much post drop, one season for Bossy, not sure for Bure.

Even if Bure played a lot of his game in good scoring environnemnt (92-93-94-95) I would imagine Bossy played in general in the highest time ever in that regard too.
 

BarnabyJones PI

I'd kindly settle for a tall glass of milk.
Bossy scored 58 goals and 117 points and turned Sutter, a 45 point defensive depth center, into a 100+ point player the year Trottier was too injured to play his usual role lol

It's revisionist history to diminish Bossy. He was the straw that stirred the drink offensively for the NYI and at the time, everyone knew he was the guy elevating the offense of those around him.

Bure was the ultimate Individualist, who would do figure 8's looking to cherry pick with his acceleration.

I think the part that gets lost with Bossy, is that he wasn't out there free-wheeling like a number of other point producers. At worst, his teams were still always playoff-bound, and relevant. I don't think of him as a guy who deviated from how Al Arbour wanted his teams to execute their gameplan, and I doubt that Trottier or Denis Potvin would rave about him if he did things his own way. He gets knocked multiple ways, because they say he's a product of the '80s, but his teams won a lot in the '80s, and the Islanders finished at/near the top of the league defensively over the bulk of his career.

Bossy never led the league in SOG, finishing in the top 10 in that category six times, but never higher than 4th (315 shots in 1980-81). I know Bossy wanted 50 in 50, but was he wired to want to lead the league in goals? I doubt that was the case.

Also, how many wingers averaged more than an assist per game in a single season (83 A in 80 G in 1981-82)? Lafleur did 80 in 80 once. Jagr did it twice. I'm assuming that's about it. Bossy doesn't get enough credit for his all-around offensive game, beyond the goal scoring.

He also converted 21.2 SPCT for his career, and Trottier at 19.0 over his 15 year span with the Islanders. The six times in Trottier's career where his shooting percentage was 20.0 or more, they all came playing with Mike Bossy. I don't think they're taking a bunch of ill-advised shots. The only more impressive duo in that regard, are Gretzky and Kurri together with Edmonton.

You can have good/great teammates, but it takes a high level of IQ/awareness to work off others surrounding you. Trottier also played with Bossy! That's awesome, for both of them. That's what great players do, and that's what makes teams greater, working together. If they didn't give a lick about defense, Trottier and Bossy could have scored more (IMO), but the Islanders aren't going as far as they did.

Bossy was also a decent enough of a two-way player. A (very) lite version of Propp perhaps in that regard?

Bure landed in a very good situation in Vancouver at the start of his career. I think he developed selfish tendencies earlier on (the team's first superstar), and they were magnified in the backhalf of his career. He gets this badge of honor for doing it by himself in people's minds, unlike Bossy, but he forced things, by trying to do too much. He's guilty of his team's lack of success later on, in a lot of ways.

Bure puts up 58 goals in 74 games, and follows it up with 59 goals in 82 games with Florida. The first year, Florida finishes with a 43-27-6-6 record, and the next year they're 22-38-13-9. What's fascinating to me, is that while it's true that the team was decimated by injuries and such in that 2nd season, not to be overlooked, but in a way, how superfluous Bure's production was to whether the team won or lost. He was always going for his own.

He and Florida had their honeymoon period in 1999-2000, but they go down 4 straight to the Devils. And that's that. The East becomes a lot more familiar with his style of play, and how the team surrounding him plays.

In the five seasons where he played more than 70 GP, he led the league in shots 4 times. On one hand, that's awesome, that he can get that many shots on net, especially since he's generally doing a lot of the generating those shots (pretty much) on his own. The flipside, how easy it is to gameplan vs a guy like this; which I'm sure the Devils did in '00.

I think Bossy could have scored a lot more goals in his 9 healthy seasons. Outside of Bossy going for 50 in 50 - because it was within reach - I imagine that he didn't approach hockey chasing lofty goal totals, at the expense of team success. Bossy getting 69 goals instead of pushing to get 80, says a lot about him (at least that's how I view him). I can think of at least a couple of guys who are in the mix in the Top 10 greatest goalscorers ever list (one in the Top 3), who were a little too motivated chasing their own numbers. Gretzky throws around a lot of praise to other players, but he was always extremely high on Mike Bossy in particular, and likely still is, even after saying that he wouldn't share a cab with the guy.
 
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BarnabyJones PI

I'd kindly settle for a tall glass of milk.
His 1994 run was up with the best of them (16 goals in a much lower scoring environment) and he had nobody near Trottier's caliber at center.

What is "revisionist history" is to claim that Bure was an individualist. On those early 90s Canucks and 00s Panthers, he was the sole offensive weapon. He was in an entirely different situation from Bossy.

He was an individualist in the NHL. Of the guys being mentioned in the Top 10 Greatest Goalscorers Ever list, Bure has to rank dead last in terms of what he does off of the puck (offensively). Maybe he ranks first in lack of awareness, of what his teammates are doing.

You can't build a successful team around an individualist. He could have played with better players, the question is, would they have wanted to play with him?

Bossy retired just as his prime ended. He avoided the normal tail-end-of-career drop-off.

How is this not the case for Bure? He was only 31 (almost 32) in his last game played. He missed a lot of his final season, and his second last season, he produced at a PPG pace.
 

Sentinel

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He was an individualist in the NHL. Of the guys being mentioned in the Top 10 Greatest Goalscorers Ever list, Bure has to rank dead last in terms of what he does off of the puck (offensively). Maybe he ranks first in lack of awareness, of what his teammates are doing.

You can't build a successful team around an individualist. He could have played with better players, the question is, would they have wanted to play with him?
Actually, other players were dying to play with Bure. Gretzky went on record saying that he would not have retired, had Bure been traded to NYR.

Your perception of him as an individualist is all on you. All other sources describe him as a great team player. It's just that usually he was relied upon to score goals (like Ovechkin) because he was, I REPEAT, the sole offensive weapon. The only time Bure could be considered "cherry-picking" is in his second Richard season in Florida, where the team literally had nothing to play for. In the NYR, Bure played a different role: a competent two-way forward.

Anyway. I do rank Bossy higher than Bure because he was more consistent, better in playoffs, and had the higher GPG but the margin is razor-thin. Bossy played on much better teams, in a higher-scoring era, and still ended up with fewer retro-Richards than Bure. But both are still not in the Top 5.
 

BarnabyJones PI

I'd kindly settle for a tall glass of milk.
Actually, other players were dying to play with Bure. Gretzky went on record saying that he would not have retired, had Bure been traded to NYR.

Your perception of him as an individualist is all on you. All other sources describe him as a great team player. It's just that usually he was relied upon to score goals (like Ovechkin) because he was, I REPEAT, the sole offensive weapon. The only time Bure could be considered "cherry-picking" is in his second Richard season in Florida, where the team literally had nothing to play for. In the NYR, Bure played a different role: a competent two-way forward.

Anyway. I do rank Bossy higher than Bure because he was more consistent, better in playoffs, and had the higher GPG but the margin is razor-thin. Bossy played on much better teams, in a higher-scoring era, and still ended up with fewer retro-Richards than Bure. But both are still not in the Top 5.

Quick search:


Bure carried a public perception of being a selfish player.

Terry Murray:

“There are always going to be players a little jealous of success and how things seem to come easy to a player like that. They get frustrated having to work so hard and not getting the same result.

“Pavel doesn’t organize team lunches. He is usually the first guy out of the dressing room and goes off to do his own thing, but there is nothing wrong with having your own life. He is not a bad teammate.”


Bure was a rare caliber: someone who could break games wide open, score goals by his lonesome and do it all at speeds that may never be seen again.


He has been branded a selfish player during his previous stops in Vancouver and Florida, a goal-scoring machine interested in scoring goals and little else, even at the expense of team success. Which explains why after a 4-3 victory in which he scored twice, Pavel Bure not only insisted that there’s a choice to be made between scoring 50 and winning games, but that he chooses the latter.

“I didn’t come here to score, I came here to be part of a team and to win,” the Russian Rocket said after he and Ronald Petrovicky scored 18 seconds apart within the final 2:38 to lift the Blueshirts to a morale-boosting win over the Lightning at the Garden yesterday afternoon. “If you want to score 50 goals now, you have to play a different game, you have to hang out at the red line and take chances, but if you want to stay within the system and play defensively, you have to stay more in the [defensive-zone] slot.

“It depends which direction you want to go: Do you want to score 50 goals and lose some games or score 20 and win some games? My direction is to win the game, not to score. You can’t do both. You can’t score a lot of goals and play great defensively.”

“It’s important for us to put Pav in a position to score big goals because that’s what he does best,” said Messier, who was strong yesterday. “He doesn’t play a conventional game, he isn’t predictable, he’s often where he shouldn’t be, and you have to play off of that.

“He does have to buy into the system, too, he has to work hard without the puck, but there’s a fine line with a talent like that because you have to exploit his strengths.”



Bure revealed his nature in 1997, when the Canucks signed Mark Messier as a free agent. Bure popped off, saying he wanted to be traded before the season started. There’s no way Bure can be about winning if his response to adding the greatest hockey winner of this era to his team is to ask out.

A year and a half later, he finally got his wish.


ESPN article:

"He's bad for morale. He's selfish. Plays a one-way game. Overstays his shifts, throwing everyone else off."

Yet Bure has been saddled with rumors he's a selfish player, a possible reason Florida gave him up so cheaply. But Sather is unconcerned.


These are just the first few links I had checked. I guess it's more than just my perception.
 
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67 others

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His 1994 run was up with the best of them (16 goals in a much lower scoring environment) and he had nobody near Trottier's caliber at center.




But it's revisionist history to say that he "stirred the drink" for the Islanders. Offensively, it was clearly Trottier (who won Hart and was a runner-up, while Bossy never rose above #3), and overall it was Potvin.

FWIW: I am not belittling Bossy. But he is clearly below Ovy, Gretzky, Hull Sr, Esposito, Howe, Richard, and Lemieux.

What is "revisionist history" is to claim that Bure was an individualist. On those early 90s Canucks and 00s Panthers, he was the sole offensive weapon. He was in an entirely different situation from Bossy.
Sure. Trottier and Potvin were the Lidstrom and Fedorov of their respective teams. Doesn't mean Yzerman wasn't equally amazing

This particular Bossy/Yzerman was able to take a depth 40 point center like Sutter and turn him into a 100+ point scorer. I didn't see Bure doing that with equivalent centers
 

bobholly39

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Voted Bossy.

"all-time" for me implies greatest, ie greater career, and Bossy ranks ahead. More consistent goal-scoring prime in the regular season, and definitely in the playoffs too.

"better", as in peak? I think this one is closer. Neither player is in the top 6 for "greatest" goal-scorer (Ovechkin, Hull Sr, 99, 66, Richard, Howe). Both simply lack too much to compete with those 6. But for "best", I'd be open to the argument that they go up. I still lean Bossy, but I could be convinced otherwise.
 

The Panther

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Yeah, this is a tough one. If we're talking each player at his best (and just in terms of goal scoring), I'd probably go Bure. But if we're talking each player's consistent prime, I'd take Bossy's.
 

Sentinel

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Quick search:


Bure carried a public perception of being a selfish player.

Terry Murray:

“There are always going to be players a little jealous of success and how things seem to come easy to a player like that. They get frustrated having to work so hard and not getting the same result.

“Pavel doesn’t organize team lunches. He is usually the first guy out of the dressing room and goes off to do his own thing, but there is nothing wrong with having your own life. He is not a bad teammate.”
This source PRAISES HIM.


He has been branded a selfish player during his previous stops in Vancouver and Florida, a goal-scoring machine interested in scoring goals and little else, even at the expense of team success. Which explains why after a 4-3 victory in which he scored twice, Pavel Bure not only insisted that there’s a choice to be made between scoring 50 and winning games, but that he chooses the latter.

“I didn’t come here to score, I came here to be part of a team and to win,” the Russian Rocket said after he and Ronald Petrovicky scored 18 seconds apart within the final 2:38 to lift the Blueshirts to a morale-boosting win over the Lightning at the Garden yesterday afternoon. “If you want to score 50 goals now, you have to play a different game, you have to hang out at the red line and take chances, but if you want to stay within the system and play defensively, you have to stay more in the [defensive-zone] slot.

“It depends which direction you want to go: Do you want to score 50 goals and lose some games or score 20 and win some games? My direction is to win the game, not to score. You can’t do both.”
This is "being selfish"???


“It’s important for us to put Pav in a position to score big goals because that’s what he does best,” said Messier, who was strong yesterday. “He doesn’t play a conventional game, he isn’t predictable, he’s often where he shouldn’t be, and you have to play off of that.
This is bad somehow?


“He does have to buy into the system, too, he has to work hard without the puck, but there’s a fine line with a talent like that because you have to exploit his strengths.”
Again, this PRAISES HIM.

Seriously, did you read your own quotes?
 

BarnabyJones PI

I'd kindly settle for a tall glass of milk.
Again, this PRAISES HIM.

Seriously, did you read your own quotes?
Actually, other players were dying to play with Bure. Gretzky went on record saying that he would not have retired, had Bure been traded to NYR.

Your perception of him as an individualist is all on you. All other sources describe him as a great team player. It's just that usually he was relied upon to score goals (like Ovechkin) because he was, I REPEAT, the sole offensive weapon. The only time Bure could be considered "cherry-picking" is in his second Richard season in Florida, where the team literally had nothing to play for. In the NYR, Bure played a different role: a competent two-way forward.

Anyway. I do rank Bossy higher than Bure because he was more consistent, better in playoffs, and had the higher GPG but the margin is razor-thin. Bossy played on much better teams, in a higher-scoring era, and still ended up with fewer retro-Richards than Bure. But both are still not in the Top 5.

It's not just my perception. It's many people's perception. Not "all other sources describes him as a great team player".

Bryan Murray saying "He is not a bad teammate", is hardly what I'd call praise. And the point of that, which is what you're purposely trying to gloss over, was his outlining that Bure did things his own way. And this is Bryan Murray, hardly a guy who's going to badmouth a former player of his, after the fact.

You're over-crediting him when he played with the Rangers (in multiple posts), which I should remind you neither team made the playoffs, and he only played in 52 games over those two truncated (for him) seasons. You can't build a reputation of being a two-way player in the epilogue of one's career.

I cited multiple articles debunking "Your perception of him as an individualist is all on you" and "All other sources describe him as a great team player".

What you've shown me, is that you're being willfully ignorant.
 
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Dingo

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Bure.

Sometimes, well quite often, a phrase gets repeated and eventually taken for holy writ. People like little slogans that reduce the necessity for thinking a situation totally through - Bob Dylan can't sing, but he sure wrote good songs, we are a nation of immigrants, Pavel Bure wouldn't have benefitted from real linemates..... -

Of all the NHL players I have watched, Pavel Bure is on a very short list of players who COULD get it done without great linemates. He COULD do it by himself. So could Wayne early on, but his numbers got much better when he had talent around him. Same for Mario, same for McDavid when he has Draisaitl.

Because Bure took the puck himself through neutral ice and did it by himself seems to tell people that he COULDN'T do anything else. Well, he could. Him being the scorer was the best option, because he never had anyone nearly his level on his line. He also never had a great puck-moving dman, which i believe is arguably even MORE important than a great linemate. Bossy had both, all the time, and he also had a team that had territory and possession all the time. Much like the Sedin's had years later on a strong Canuck squad. Their numbers were arguably better than Pavel's, too, but only in their peak which coincided directly with the team being its strongest. They had more offensive zone starts than anyone those years.

For anyone thinking that Pavel couldn't help his linemates, please refer to Gino Odjick's 16 goal season, in a contract year where when asked how he scored 16 goals, he said, "Pavel."

Bure and Bossy have remarkably similar goals per game finishes by season, at peak. One had Wayne, one had Mario to contend with. One had Potvin and Trottier and a dynasty team, one had ..... some pretty decent teammates, on and off.

Bure a slightly better goalscorer. Bossy a far better career as a goal scorer.
 

Sentinel

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It's not just my perception. It's many people's perception. Not "all other sources describes him as a great team player".

Bryan Murray saying "He is not a bad teammate", is hardly what I'd call praise. And the point of that, which is what you're purposely trying to gloss over, was his outlining that Bure did things his own way. And this is Bryan Murray, hardly a guy who's going to badmouth a former player of his, after the fact.

You're over-crediting him when he played with the Rangers (in multiple posts), which I should remind you neither team made the playoffs, and he only played in 52 games over those two truncated (for him) seasons. You can't build a reputation of being a two-way player in the epilogue of one's career.

I cited multiple articles debunking "Your perception of him as an individualist is all on you" and "All other sources describe him as a great team player".

What you've shown me, is that you're being willfully ignorant.
We are clearly reading different things from the same source. Murray is clearly defending Bure against allegations that he was a bad teammate. Messier is clearly saying you can benefit the team while being your own player. Not to mention, Bure is still far more beloved in Vancouver than Messier.

His Ranger years show that he made a seamless transition from being one of the best goalscorers of all time (which benefitted his teams) to a two-way player. Blaming Rangers lack of success on Bire is also big stretch. That whole team was a mess(ier) but at least Bure tried playing defense.

He benefitted his teams.
 

BarnabyJones PI

I'd kindly settle for a tall glass of milk.
We are clearly reading different things from the same source. Murray is clearly defending Bure against allegations that he was a bad teammate. Messier is clearly saying you can benefit the team while being your own player. Not to mention, Bure is still far more beloved in Vancouver than Messier.

His Ranger years show that he made a seamless transition from being one of the best goalscorers of all time (which benefitted his teams) to a two-way player. Blaming Rangers lack of success on Bire is also big stretch. That whole team was a mess(ier) but at least Bure tried playing defense.

He benefitted his teams.
That's the whole point that I debunked. It wasn't only me who thinks that he was individualistic.
 

Golden_Jet

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Probably not worded correctly, as neither are the best all time, but between these 2, I take Bossy.
 

Midnight Judges

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It's pretty close IMO. Bure led the league 3 times to Bossy's 2. Bure has 2 or 3 seasons that are better than Bossy's best (strictly from a goal scoring perspective).

Bossy obviously has an edge in playoffs but a lot of that is circumstantial, and it's not as if Bure was not good in the playoffs. And the flip side is Bossy played for a dynasty whereas Bure didn't have that kind of support.

Cumulatively, they're neck and neck in terms of total career regular season goal scoring.
 

Midnight Judges

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Bossy gets overrated due to playing entirely in the high scoring era. Most of his 50 goals seasons are more like 40-something goal seasons in an average NHL scoring environment with approximately 3 GPG per team.

When you review the preponderance of the data, it's pretty obvious that Bossy doesn't belong in the conversations he's routinely put into.
 

MadLuke

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It's pretty close IMO. Bure led the league 3 times to Bossy's 2. Bure has 2 or 3 seasons that are better than Bossy's best (strictly from a goal scoring perspective).

It is really close.

Goals
1.Wayne Gretzky* • EDM92
2.Mike Bossy* • NYI64

He lost 3 rocket to Lafleur, Gretzky, Kurri playing with Gretzky big year.

That said he did not separate himself from the third place there, it is not stolen, would have won all year if not that type of season, but 3 of Bossy season could have been a Rocket one in some year.

He could underrated by looking just at the numbers/era, the big work on this message board, made for Bossy scoring on big game-big effort-good defense for example, could point to him being possibly underrated by some metric (while usually overrated by many, there was 56 non Bossy 50 goal season during his prime...)

End of the day, his prime look like this:

23% more than scorer like Dionne, while leading the playoff by a good amount:
 

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