Messier vs McDavid

[NashtoNowitzki]

Down three games to two to the Devils in the 1994 Eastern Conference Final, Messier guaranteed the win in game six. He went out and scored three goals and assisted on the other in a 4-2 Rangers win. Rangers went on to win the SC. I love McDavid, but pro sports is about winning. Messier is one of the biggest winners that has ever played in the league. This isn’t even a fair comparison.

Just an insane take. Simplistic "the best players on the best teams are better than the best players on mediocre/bad teams just by virtue of winning" analysis.
Messier got put in the position to be able to have that moment because he had a Leetch, a Zubov, and a Richter. We have had absolutely none of that in 9 years with McDavid.

I'm assuming you put Mackinnon & Kucherov above McDavid also? That's your logic. Good christ give your head a shake.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Gretzky some how survived but McDavid might of died playing in that league?

Yes and I’ve written why several times in subsequent posts. Either way it will never happen as this is all hypothetical.

 

[Aerchon]

I said old goat Messier.

He is my favorite Oiler period, the end. His skill and determination second to none. Him leading our last cup run puts anything McDavid has yet done to shame. Not even close and I honestly don't know how anyone who has watched both could say otherwise.

Messier dark side is something I now, in this current age, strongly disagree with but it was a different "game" back then. Players were warriors. You fight fire with fire. I prefer the skill game but for just pure intensity... old nhl was just... better.

Ditto Messier compared to McDavid. We would already have a cup under McDavid if this wasn't true.

 

[Fourier]

McDavid is way better than Messier. The better comparison would be Messier vs. Draisaitl.

Don't let team accomplishments fool you, look at all the HOFers Messier played alongside while McDavid hasn't had that luxury outside of one player. In terms of who is the better individual player, it's McDavid by a large margin IMO.

There are a lot of similarities between these two even though I don't think Leon has reached Messier's level for me. One big thing I think the two have in common is that they took advantage of a generational talent to up their own games. I've already commented on how much I think Gretzky's presence allowed Messier to mature and find his place in NHL history. What Draisaitl did that really impressed me is to completely overhaul how he approached the game to play with McDavid. That shot was not there in his first couple of years. I distinctly remember watching him in warm-ups taking shots off McDavid feeds from these ridiculous angles and wondering why he would do that. Draisaitl plays a very different game with and without McDavid. And to his credit he excels at both.

 

[Fourier]

Again Lafleur avoided contact, McDavid does not, in fact he often goes looking for it and his style has caused him to be seriously banged up twice already, one incident nearly ending his career with a blown out knee.

We are fortunate to be able to witness both players greatness in our lifetimes.

I agree that McDavid does not avoid contact but more so because he initiates it rather than absorbs it. But I don't think that the type of contact that injures players was worse back then. Injuries from violent contact are more acute when players are larger and faster. Moreover, I think today's players are more reckless in regard to the type of actions that can cause really serious injuries.

With respect to your last statement, I could not agree more.

 

[alanschu]

Gretzky some how survived but McDavid might of died playing in that league?

Yeah I was thinking about this.

I mean Gretzky recognized he had to maintain awareness even after whistles when he was like a 12 year old making 15 year olds look foolish which definitely transferred, but I think McDavid thinks and sees the game pretty well. He had some mistakes earlier in his career of getting himself in vulnerable positions I feel, but it would have also been an era where a Semenko would go ruin someone's day if they were too cheap with Connor.

The challenge of course always comes with eras as McDavid's current skillset was influenced by the Wayne and Mario's of the league, but I think he's competitive and motivated enough and he'd probably have some extra speed advantages in a more wide open type of game. If he played in the 80s I bet we'd be talking about how fast McDavid was in his time over someone like Mike Gartner... with the skills and work ethic to push those numbers a fair bit higher.

 

[rboomercat90]

Two totally different players. Completely different.

Messier 6 cups. McDavid 0.

Easy choice, not even close right now.

Didn’t Messier also throw Jimmy Carson up against a wall because he wouldn’t play the right way? Different times today I know but I’d love to see some fire like that directed at a player or two on this team.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Didn’t Messier also throw Jimmy Carson up against a wall because he wouldn’t play the right way? Different times today I know but I’d love to see some fire like that directed at a player or two on this team.

When they acquired Kent Nilsson, very talented but who had a reputation for not playing hard every game they put him beside Messier in the locker room. The result was the best line I have ever seen before or since, Messier with Nilsson on his left and Anderson on his right. That line dominated when they were on the ice, all of them skated like the wind, Messier was pure brute force, Anderson was the reckless abandon drive the net guy and Nilsson was probably the 2nd best puck handler behind Gretzky on the team. All had a wicked shot and they terrorized opponents. The best part was that they were the Oilers 2nd line behind Gretzky and Kurri.

 

[rboomercat90]

When they acquired Kent Nilsson, very talented but who had a reputation for not playing hard every game they put him beside Messier in the locker room. The result was the best line I have ever seen before or since, Messier with Nilsson on his left and Anderson on his right. That line dominated when they were on the ice, all of them skated like the wind, Messier was pure brute force, Anderson was the reckless abandon drive the net guy and Nilsson was probably the 2nd best puck handler behind Gretzky on the team. All had a wicked shot and they terrorized opponents. The best part was that they were the Oilers 2nd line behind Gretzky and Kurri.

Yes, I had forgotten all about Nilsson’s attitude change after he got to Edmonton. This was one of those intangibles Messier had that I don’t think the younger generation understands. Again, times are different today and I shudder at the thought of what would happen to a player trying to lead that way today, but this was a real thing back then.

 

[Slats432]

I love these debates because they are impossible to answer. No right or wrong answer.

The McDavid and Draisaitl era will be defined based on one championship. If it doesn't come, it will be a failure, blamed on horrid management and decision making.

As individual players, in their era by comparison, McDavid is a better offensive player, more skilled, talented and jaw droppingly fantastic.

Messier is better in strength, defensive play, leadership, with very good offensive skills. He could do so many things and those are the things that helped bring championships to this town.

There isn't a better here. Just like Pronger vs. Coffey is two players that are distinctively different in their eras and styles, you can't compare them well.

If the deciding factor is at 18, which player would you start a franchise with? A slight edge to McDavid, but it isn't much. If it is a 26 year old and it's day one of the NHL playoffs? Messier.

But love the question, and there is no right or wrong...I didn't vote.

 

[ManofSteel55]

McDavid, and rather easily. The only decision I had to make is if I am an old goat or not.

 

[5 14 6 1]

McDavid is one of the 5 best players to ever lace up skates

 

[Drivesaitl]

When they acquired Kent Nilsson, very talented but who had a reputation for not playing hard every game they put him beside Messier in the locker room. The result was the best line I have ever seen before or since, Messier with Nilsson on his left and Anderson on his right. That line dominated when they were on the ice, all of them skated like the wind, Messier was pure brute force, Anderson was the reckless abandon drive the net guy and Nilsson was probably the 2nd best puck handler behind Gretzky on the team. All had a wicked shot and they terrorized opponents. The best part was that they were the Oilers 2nd line behind Gretzky and Kurri.

Linseman got the treatment as well. Not necessarily for on ice stuff but Mess and some of the players felt Ken was standoffish and not being part of team. Linseman was a guy who didn't feel it necessary to go out bonding with team and it wasn't taken well. The Oilers motto being play hard party hard.

Kind of feel for Linseman with that because a lot of extracurricular things the Oilers were doing was stuff to stay away from. A vet like Ken Linseman could probably see all the problems. I don't think it worked either as they moved him out. He fit on ice fine, but not off it.

Not sure what to make of the topic as I just don't see Mess vs McDavid as comparables. Mess vs Drai is more the ticket. With McD its vs Gretzky. Just don't understand the thread.

Drai vs Mess is also the comparable because both had hockey coach dads, and were coached by those dads who were both fiercely motivated to strive for their son's success and taught them so much. What this did to both is put them far above the curve in knowledge of hockey, knowledge of hockey life, and how to find success in it. Its an incredible head start. Its like being in hockey school ever day of your life and having it at home.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

McDavid followed Gretzky's path as a chosen one identified young and carried great expectations from a very young age. Incredible pressure and expectation baked into their reality from a club fan perspective but also their nation. Messier was somewhat like a raw piece of granite when he arrived within a perfect environment to develop behind frontman Gretzky's game and tireless calls for his time and attention beyond the game on ice.

Messier was likely my favourite Oiler (after Coffey) for the lethal package of speed, skill, ferocity, and unpredicableness in his game. Powerful skater with physical gifts and innate meanness to take over games. His game continued to grow and with that his force of personality demanded leadership, attention, and adherence to follow. A truly big moment player who is immortal as a six Cup champion but truly so for driving a Cup win in New York City under the immense pressure of 42 years (I think it was 42) of never getting the big prize despite having some really good teams. That is legend making.

But I'll still say McDavid will pass the Moose with a little more runway. McDavid is closer to Gretzky in terms of production separation from his teammates and league. He dissects the game at level of Gretzky and defies belief with his attacking game at elite speed to disrupt team defences. When it's all said and done, I think the Oilers super elites will be Gretzky/McDavid followed by Messier, Coffey then Draisaitl. That's an untouchable Mount Rushmore. How lucky we are.

 

[Nostradumbass]

McDavid’s stats are putting him in conversation with Lemieux and Gretzky, not Messier. He will retire as one of the best 3 forwards of all time, cup or not.

 

[NashtoNowitzki]

Their finishes in the scoring race from their second season to their eigth:

Messier: T-75th, T-28th, Seventh, Twelfth, T-109th, T-23rd, T-3rd

McDavid: First, First, Second, Second, First, First, First

You chose McDavid, or you are wrong. Those are the 2 options.

 

[Chet Manley]

This is alot harder to answer than it should be. But Messier was my favourite player on a team with Gretzky on it. In the end of some back and forth thinking, I keep coming back to McDavid likely being the first line centre if they were both on the same team.

 

[rboomercat90]

I love these debates because they are impossible to answer. No right or wrong answer.

The McDavid and Draisaitl era will be defined based on one championship. If it doesn't come, it will be a failure, blamed on horrid management and decision making.

As individual players, in their era by comparison, McDavid is a better offensive player, more skilled, talented and jaw droppingly fantastic.

Messier is better in strength, defensive play, leadership, with very good offensive skills. He could do so many things and those are the things that helped bring championships to this town.

There isn't a better here. Just like Pronger vs. Coffey is two players that are distinctively different in their eras and styles, you can't compare them well.

If the deciding factor is at 18, which player would you start a franchise with? A slight edge to McDavid, but it isn't much. If it is a 26 year old and it's day one of the NHL playoffs? Messier.

But love the question, and there is no right or wrong...I didn't vote.

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I didn’t vote either, for the same reason.

 

[Fourier]

I love these debates because they are impossible to answer. No right or wrong answer.

The McDavid and Draisaitl era will be defined based on one championship. If it doesn't come, it will be a failure, blamed on horrid management and decision making.

As individual players, in their era by comparison, McDavid is a better offensive player, more skilled, talented and jaw droppingly fantastic.

Messier is better in strength, defensive play, leadership, with very good offensive skills. He could do so many things and those are the things that helped bring championships to this town.

There isn't a better here. Just like Pronger vs. Coffey is two players that are distinctively different in their eras and styles, you can't compare them well.

If the deciding factor is at 18, which player would you start a franchise with? A slight edge to McDavid, but it isn't much. If it is a 26 year old and it's day one of the NHL playoffs? Messier.

But love the question, and there is no right or wrong...I didn't vote.

View attachment 845522

View attachment 845523

I'll quibble with one part of your post. At 18 I think it is McDavid and its not even close. Messier terrorized the AJHL but was never viewed as anywhere near the level of player that McDavid was. And I believe that you are old enough to remember his early years with the Oilers. He was undisciplined and a very different player from the guy he became. His first few years he was not all that interested in defense and Sather would ride him for that. I honestly suspect that he not had Gretzky as a role model he would never have been seen as one of the best players of all time.

 

[Messrules11]

Their finishes in the scoring race from their second season to their eigth:

Messier: T-75th, T-28th, Seventh, Twelfth, T-109th, T-23rd, T-3rd

McDavid: First, First, Second, Second, First, First, First

You chose McDavid, or you are wrong. Those are the 2 options.

Very misleading. You do realize McD plays an insane amount of minutes while Mess was basically on the 2nd line.
Let’s compare Cups while your at it. See how silly that is.

 

[NashtoNowitzki]

Very misleading. You do realize McD plays an insane amount of minutes while Mess was basically on the 2nd line.
Let’s compare Cups while your at it. See how silly that is.

Didn't realize playing on the second line with hall of famer Glenn Anderson prevented you from scoring.
Oh, let's compare cups: MacKinnon & Kucherov confirmed better players than McDavid, since mOrE cUpS.

First rate analysis from "Messrules 11"

 

[Messrules11]

Didn't realize playing on the second line with hall of famer Glenn Anderson prevented you from scoring.
Oh, let's compare cups: MacKinnon & Kucherov confirmed better players than McDavid, since mOrE cUpS.

First rate analysis from "Messrules 11"

And more stupidity out of you. I said it was silly, read much?

 

[KCC]

He won those cups in a 10 year window and went to the finals in 7 of 11. Amazing

Goes to show you the supporting cast he had. Put McDavid in his place and he wins all those cups as well. lol

 

[Messrules11]

Goes to show you the supporting cast he had. Put McDavid in his place and he wins all those cups as well. lol

Obviously the support was there, doesn’t diminish the success. Mess has been called the greatest leader in all of pro sports many times, whether true or not is debatable. McD would have been second fiddle to Gretz as well.

 

[NashtoNowitzki]

I really hope when I hit senility my thought process goes further than "I watched this player when I was young and he was drafted onto a dynasty, so he's better"

I know this is an Edmonton oilers message board so we're all a little too close to the subject matter, but this is like arguing Scottie Pippin is better than LeBron James.

Messier got to play with the goat, Mcdavid got drafted by the Cavaliers.