Messier vs McDavid

[Fourier]

This poll comes about from a discussion on the main board. The question is intentionally vague since different people will define "better" in very different ways. If you want to add your reason for choosing one over the other that would be great.

I am also splitting the pool to see how the older posters see this. By old goat I mean anyone who watched the 80's Oilers regularly and were old enough to critically compare the players.

For me I think McDavid has done enough to rank as the second best Oiler ever. Skill-wise I don't think it is close. Messier has the rings but those are team accomplishments.

Click to read more...

 

[tfwnogf]

McDavid is more talented but he's gotta lead the squad to a cup win. Messier did it without Gretzky which is huge. In terms of raw talent McDavid is easily number 2, but as most important oiler he is behind messier until he can win a cup. I still pick McDavid cause he WILL win and it WILL be beautiful

 

[Spawn]

No disrespect to Messier, but I don’t know how you could possibly pick him over McDavid at this point.

It would be one thing if he sucked come playoff time, but you could put his last couple of playoff runs up against any player in the world.

The reality is no single player can win a cup. Yes, Messier won one without Gretzky here. He also had an entire cup caliber team around him. McDavid has never gotten close to that kind of support.

 

[Messrules11]

Connor has better skill but there’s a lot more than skill to look at in this comparison, silly as it is.
I’ll take the moose in his prime everyday.

 

[Devilmademedoit]

Messier was a great leader and lead the boys into Battle

 

[Sra1974]

I guess I’m in the old goat category, that part sucks.

Chose Messier, he was my favourite back then, such a unique blend of raw power, pure skill, incredible intensit including being basically a mean sob, and a powerful leader. I just can’t go against what he accomplished including winning that first conn smythe.

Pure skill it’s Mcdavid hands down, but I can’t put him above Mess yet. I hope I get to one day because that will mean the next few years go amazing.

Great debate though.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

Both players are underated in most people top whatever. I'll stop here...

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Moose was allowed to elbow players in the head for fun and not get suspended.

McDavid all day.

Messier was a lesser version of Gordie Howe with the combination of power skill nastiness.

 

[brentashton]

Old f***er reporting in.

McDavid, but it’s very close.

Messier with his deceptive off foot shot, speed, intimidation factor both towards his opponents and his own teammates, and intangible leadership qualities makes it tough to not pick him. But,

McDavid “sees” the game in ways that only one other player I’ve watched (99) did. His ability to thread passes, speed to burn players one on one or gain zones is unparalleled. He has an extremely accurate shot when he uses it, versus brute force. He leads in a manner different from Messier, but I don’t think I could say his candle burns any dimmer in that sense. I’ve seen Connor burn a hole in teammates with his laser eyes when he’s pissed too. As a pure hockey player I go with CMcD.

 

[Messrules11]

Moose was allowed to elbow players in the head for fun and not get suspended.

McDavid all day.

Messier was a lesser version of Gordie Howe with the combination of power skill nastiness.

Elbows for fun? It was a very different league back then, guys had upwards of 300 PIM’s, no helmets and no one sparred the lumber.
Nowadays there’s no red line, no goal posts and no fighting. Apples and oranges.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

It’s McDavid all day..the guy is not only more talented but dragged the Oilers to a series wins against the Kings and Flames in 2022 and last year

Mess is one of the greats but you still need a supporting cast to lead

Ask Canucks fans how good Messier’s “leadership” was in Vancouver

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

Come on. The 80's early 90's Oilers had waaaaaay more overall battle tested & proven talent than this team.

They also always had the best goalie.

McDavid all day long.

 

[oXo Cube]

Gretzky

McDavid

Messier
Coffey
Draisaitl

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Two totally different players. Completely different.

Messier 6 cups. McDavid 0.

Easy choice, not even close right now.

 

[Messrules11]

Two totally different players. Completely different.

Messier 6 cups. McDavid 0.

Easy choice, not even close right now.

He won those cups in a 10 year window and went to the finals in 7 of 11. Amazing

 

[Fourier]

Two totally different players. Completely different.

Messier 6 cups. McDavid 0.

Easy choice, not even close right now.

Your post is exactly why I made this tread. I understand the sentiment but respectfully disagree with the argument, at least without context. Can we say

Richard 11cups>>Messier = Lowe 6 cups > Lafleur 5 cups > Gretzky = Claude Lemieux 4 cups > Mario Lemieux 3 cups > McDavid 0 cups.

At some point it is about the individuals. Intangibles matter but they are only part of the story. And I actually agree with @brentashton above in terms of comparing the two as leaders. McDavid's drive and competitiveness is exceptional. With respect to Messier, I probably appreciate what he brought to the table as much as most here. But there is also a fair bit of myth attached to him. He became a great leader but that was not always his game. In his first few years he was in Sather's dog house as often as anyone. He was undisciplined and often very defensively irresponsible. I think he became the player he did precisely because of playing with Gretzky who was the true leader of that 80's team. Take that 80-81 team and remove Gretzky and I have serious doubts that that team wins even one cup. And yes I know they eventually won one without Gretzky, but that is not the point. That team was a pretty rag-tag group that was lifted up immensely by having a guy on the team who was simply far better than everyone but who virtually never took a short cut or quit as a role model. Gretzky's presence allowed Messier to mature and to eventually play a game that he was well suited to. Even so his lack of discipline never really went away as far as regular season paly was concerned. For all the flack McDavid takes about "not caring about defense" on a given night in February Messier could be very much the same.

Messier was certainly able to rise to the occasion when it counted. His best games were typically when things were on the line. But McDavid's playoff performance in 2022 for me exceeded that of any past Oiler short of Gretzky. Messier at his best would not have beaten that Av's team with the Oiler's supporting crew. Messier won his early cups surrounded by multiple Hall of Fame players and "support players" like Esa Tikkanen, Kent Nilsson, Ken Linseman. Evan Bouchard is having a great season but he is no Paul Coffey. There were no Vinny Desharnais on any cup team that Messier won with, and no question marks about goaltending. Fuhr and Moog were hardly comparable to Skinner and Campbell. Even in his last two cups Messier had great teammates who knew how to win. The Ranger team was perhaps the weakest on paper but they still had defensemen like Leetch and Zubov as well as a great goaltender in Richter to go along with his buddies from the 80's Oilers. Plus they had a pretty easy route to the cup with only New Jersey being considered a contender and they were just on the verge of taking the next step. That team does not beat the equivalent of the 2021-22 Avs viewed relative to its peers in my opinion.

The bottom line for me is that it is much much harder to win these days in city like Edmonton than it was back then. Not only are there 50% more teams but the salary cap makes it virtually impossible to build a team like the dynasties of the 50's. 70's and 80's. For me the fact that McDavid has played with relatively little support should not take away from the incredible things he has done.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

It's McDavid.

Messier was a fantastic, franchise centre-level player, but McDavid is the defining player of this generation.



It's like comparing Kopitar/Getzlaf/Thornton to Crosby; or Yzerman/Sakic/Lindros to Lemieux. Sure a decent argument can be made, but it's still wrong.

 

[Sra1974]

Your post is exactly why I made this tread. I understand the sentiment but respectfully disagree with the argument, at least without context. Can we say

Richard 9 cups>>Messier = Lowe 6 cups > Lafleur 5 cups > Gretzky = Claude Lemieux 4 cups > Mario Lemieux 3 cups > McDavid 0 cups.

At some point it is about the individuals. Intangibles matter but they are only part of the story. And I actually agree with @brentashton above in terms of comparing the two as leaders. McDavid's drive and competitiveness is exceptional. With respect to Messier, I probably appreciate what he brought to the table as much as most here. But there is also a fair bit of myth attached to him. He became a great leader but that was not always his game. In his first few years he was in Sather's dog house as often as anyone. He was undisciplined and often very defensively irresponsible. I think he became the player he did precisely because of playing with Gretzky who was the true leader of that 80's team. Take that 80-81 team and remove Gretzky and I have serious doubts that that team wins even one cup. And yes I know they eventually won one without Gretzky, but that is not the point. That team was a pretty rag-tag group that was lifted up immensely by having a guy on the team who was simply far better than everyone but who virtually never took a short cut or quit as a role model. Gretzky's presence allowed Messier to mature and to eventually play a game that he was well suited to. Even so his lack of discipline never really went away as far as regular season paly was concerned. For all the flack McDavid takes about "not caring about defense" on a given night in February Messier could be very much the same.

Messier was certainly able to rise to the occasion when it counted. His best games were typically when things were on the line. But McDavid's playoff performance in 2022 for me exceeded that of any past Oiler short of Gretzky. Messier at his best would not have beaten that Av's team with the Oiler's supporting crew. Messier won his early cups surrounded by multiple Hall of Fame players and "support players" like Esa Tikkanen, Kent Nilsson, Ken Linseman. Evan Bouchard is having a great season but he is no Paul Coffey. There were no Vinny Desharnais on any cup team that Messier won with, and no question marks about goaltending. Fuhr and Moog were hardly comparable to Skinner and Campbell. Even in his last two cups Messier had great teammates who knew how to win. The Ranger team was perhaps the weakest on paper but they still had defensemen like Leetch and Zubov as well as a great goaltender in Richter to go along with his buddies from the 80's Oilers. Plus they had a pretty easy route to the cup with only New Jersey being considered a contender and they were just on the verge of taking the next step. That team does not beat the equivalent of the 2021-22 Avs viewed relative to its peers in my opinion.

The bottom line for me is that it is much much harder to win these days in city like Edmonton than it was back then. Not only are there 50% more teams but the salary cap makes it virtually impossible to build a team like the dynasties of the 50's. 70's and 80's. For me the fact that McDavid has played with relatively little support should not take away from the incredible things he has done.

I agree it’s harder to win now, and so for me I chose Mess, but if Mcdavid even puts one cup on the board I lean towards putting him ahead. He doesn’t need 6 but as an old goat I am looking for the hardware. He is more talented then Messier and closer to Gretz and Lemieux in that regard, no argument from me in that Regard.

 

[CupofOil]

McDavid is way better than Messier. The better comparison would be Messier vs. Draisaitl.

Don't let team accomplishments fool you, look at all the HOFers Messier played alongside while McDavid hasn't had that luxury outside of one player. In terms of who is the better individual player, it's McDavid by a large margin IMO.

 

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

Your post is exactly why I made this tread. I understand the sentiment but respectfully disagree with the argument, at least without context. Can we say

Richard 9 cups>>Messier = Lowe 6 cups > Lafleur 5 cups > Gretzky = Claude Lemieux 4 cups > Mario Lemieux 3 cups > McDavid 0 cups.

At some point it is about the individuals. Intangibles matter but they are only part of the story. And I actually agree with @brentashton above in terms of comparing the two as leaders. McDavid's drive and competitiveness is exceptional. With respect to Messier, I probably appreciate what he brought to the table as much as most here. But there is also a fair bit of myth attached to him. He became a great leader but that was not always his game. In his first few years he was in Sather's dog house as often as anyone. He was undisciplined and often very defensively irresponsible. I think he became the player he did precisely because of playing with Gretzky who was the true leader of that 80's team. Take that 80-81 team and remove Gretzky and I have serious doubts that that team wins even one cup. And yes I know they eventually won one without Gretzky, but that is not the point. That team was a pretty rag-tag group that was lifted up immensely by having a guy on the team who was simply far better than everyone but who virtually never took a short cut or quit as a role model. Gretzky's presence allowed Messier to mature and to eventually play a game that he was well suited to. Even so his lack of discipline never really went away as far as regular season paly was concerned. For all the flack McDavid takes about "not caring about defense" on a given night in February Messier could be very much the same.

Messier was certainly able to rise to the occasion when it counted. His best games were typically when things were on the line. But McDavid's playoff performance in 2022 for me exceeded that of any past Oiler short of Gretzky. Messier at his best would not have beaten that Av's team with the Oiler's supporting crew. Messier won his early cups surrounded by multiple Hall of Fame players and "support players" like Esa Tikkanen, Kent Nilsson, Ken Linseman. Evan Bouchard is having a great season but he is no Paul Coffey. There were no Vinny Desharnais on any cup team that Messier won with, and no question marks about goaltending. Fuhr and Moog were hardly comparable to Skinner and Campbell. Even in his last two cups Messier had great teammates who knew how to win. The Ranger team was perhaps the weakest on paper but they still had defensemen like Leetch and Zubov as well as a great goaltender in Richter to go along with his buddies from the 80's Oilers. Plus they had a pretty easy route to the cup with only New Jersey being considered a contender and they were just on the verge of taking the next step. That team does not beat the equivalent of the 2021-22 Avs viewed relative to its peers in my opinion.

The bottom line for me is that it is much much harder to win these days in city like Edmonton than it was back then. Not only are there 50% more teams but the salary cap makes it virtually impossible to build a team like the dynasties of the 50's. 70's and 80's. For me the fact that McDavid has played with relatively little support should not take away from the incredible things he has done.

Messier was a hyper talented beast who’d rip your eyeballs out with his thumbs to win, his lack of discipline was part of his aura as his opponents never knew when they’d eat an elbow to the head or a butt end in the ear. He could score skate pass and fight with the best of them. He just didn’t give a f***. The game back then was meaner tougher and far more take no prisoners than today’s love fest Sunday school pick up game stars on ice ballet we call hockey today. Messier was the undisputed King of that Jungle.

McDavid is perhaps the most advanced hockey machine we’ve ever seen playing in an era where the game is about speed. Nobody has ever had his combination of speed, puck handling, vision, and hockey IQ. When he’s on the ice he usually dominates and as his game has matured he has come into his own as a leader as well. He has also brought a physical element as he is one of the teams leaders in hits. The game today emphasizes speed and skill versus the Neanderthal pound you into ground intimidation cave man game of Messiers era. McDavid is the undisputed Champion of this Race Car Circuit.

Messier today would be suspended right out of the league. McDavid back then probably would have died.

Messier was surrounded by the greatest team that was ever assembled but he also won 2 cups with far lesser teams, the post Gretzky Oilers and the Rangers. McDavid has been surrounded by poor to mediocre talent most of his career save the past 3-4 years. Playoff record , 2 first round sweeps, 2 second round losses, 1 third round sweep.

Messier’s era had no cap but salaries were so deflated combined with owner union collusion to keep them that way along with very low league revenue it almost acted as a cap. McDavids era has a hard cap and combative union league relationship making it much more difficult to put together a top team of talent.

Messiers era the players were by and large Canadian , teams drawing from a much much smaller and less skilled and diverse talent pool. McDavid’s era the game is global with less than half the league coming from Canada. Major superstars today hail from Sweden Russia (boo) Slovakia Finland Chechia Germany Austria and the USA is becoming the dominant talent pool as the NCAA matures and the game grows south of the border. A top AHL team today is probably a competitive team in the 21 team NHL of Messiers era.

So; who is the “better player”? It’s like comparing cars from different eras. They are so different then and now so as to only be appreciated fully within their own era.

But if I had to choose I witnessed Messier win 5 cups here in Edmonton and 1 cup on Oilers East. McDavid is amazing but he needs to win at least 1 cup for the Oilers before he knocks Messier off my personal pedestal.

 

[barry halls]

McDavid for me.

McDavid could go down as the greatest Oiler of all time if he plays in Edmonton for his whole career, puts up 2000pts in an Oilers sweater and wins at least one cup.

 

[Vagabond]

Messier was by far the better Leader as has been stated by many. If his Team wasn't playing well, he always managed to correct that promptly. His intimidating powers were an actual factor. He wasn't afraid of taking out other stars if their goons were taking out our stars. Just ask Mike Madano, Otto and countless others. He was a consistent scorer. He was great at passing. He had speed. He was dirty. He was edgy. He was a good fighter. He could snipe. He'd do absolutely everything & anything to win and I mean everything because I seen it. He's absolutely one of the all-time greats because this man had it ALL.

Connor McDavid is by far the greatest player I've ever seen skate at max speed and have the puck control with incredible skill as he does in league history. His speed and awareness is an actual intimidating presence that Teams have created ways to change how they play the Oilers. The knock on McDavid is you literally need players that think on his level to play along side him unless you're Zach Hyman. Crosby had the same issues. Gretzky never did and to me that's what makes Gretz the greatest of all time.

McDavid to me has by far the greatest raw talent in league history.
Messier had by far the greatest overall attributes to create championships.

Which one would I want to win a cup?

Right now, its the Moose.

We'll have to reevaluate this again because McDavid's career isn't even half over yet.

 

[The Panther]

I started watching the Oilers in 1985, followed them closely from the 1986-87 season. Watched Mess a lot when he was a Ranger, too.

McDavid is clearly the better player on an individual level -- but, "individual level" doesn't mean much to me as hockey is never played/won by individuals. Fortunately, McDavid is also a better playmaker than Messier was, and a bit better at elevating teammates. Connor is also the superior skater / passer. Mess was elite at all those things, but Connor is better. (Goals-wise, they're probably about equal.)

You have to give this to McDavid with 5 scoring titles and 3 Hart trophies already, and possibly more to come. Mess "willed" the Oilers to victory at times (vs. NYI 1984; vs. Chicago 1990), but on a less dynamic club, McDavid has shown incredible ability to dominate in the playoffs, albeit in a much smaller sample.

Come on. The 80's early 90's Oilers had waaaaaay more overall battle tested & proven talent than this team.

They also always had the best goalie.

Moog 1983? Fuhr/Moog 1984? Fuhr 1987/1988? Ranford 1990?

I would say the current Oilers and the 1990 Oilers (no Gretzky, no Coffey, no Fuhr) are at about the same talent level.

 

[Leonardlizard]

My dad was just talking about Messier and his leadership. "The Messier Stare" was referenced and he was talking about that being a trait that he wondered if Connor had (after the worst case Ontario). I question whether that goes as far as it once did... depends on the group maybe.

I think it worked for MacKinnon...

 

[AM]

I’m an oiler fan connermcdavid hasn’t left. Good enough for me. Even though I watched mess split the islander d to pull out their hearts, in RATT, I still remember him in a Vancouver jersey. That said, maybe he was a bit of a fifth column. I also remember him ass kissing the rangers org for 10 years.