Messier taking a dead player's retired number in Vancouver - what's the story?

[wetcoast]

It goes back to before that though, from his stick on Gradin, hitting an injured Linden as the seconds wound down during game 6, and winning the Cup against the Canucks in 1994. There was a lot of contempt underneath the surface from Canucks fans towards Messier...if it somehow worked out perfectly for Vancouver as it did for NYR then yea they would've embraced it, but it fell apart in the ugliest of fashions

Also Moose has this thing called an ego issue, sure some say he had a right after his playoff history but fans also have the right to be rubbed the wrong way and Linden is a god in Vancouver and the Canucks treatment of him compared to Moose led to bad feelings.

 

[The Panther]

Also Moose has this thing called an ego issue, sure some say he had a right after his playoff history but fans also have the right to be rubbed the wrong way and Linden is a god in Vancouver and the Canucks treatment of him compared to Moose led to bad feelings.

Note you specifically said "Canucks' treatment of him", not Messier's treatment of him. I agree that fans were rubbed the wrong way, but it wasn't Messier's fault (unless you blame him for signing for more money than he was worth... in which case, remember the next time your employer offers you twice your current salary, you're bound to say 'no thanks' because you might not deserve it!).

 

[wetcoast]

Note you specifically said "Canucks' treatment of him", not Messier's treatment of him. I agree that fans were rubbed the wrong way, but it wasn't Messier's fault (unless you blame him for signing for more money than he was worth... in which case, remember the next time your employer offers you twice your current salary, you're bound to say 'no thanks' because you might not deserve it!).

Moose isn't getting off so easy here his ego and his need to feed it is what rubbed fans the wrong way.

Or put another way 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Moose Head]

Ted Green coached on a lot of teams Messier played on. Perhaps they were close and he knew Greens struggles and didn't quite care for Maki or his legacy.

 

[BudBundy]

Something I just realized

In that leaked 1997 hand written contract Messier signed, one of his demands is simply stated as

9. #11

But why? I mean surely the Messier camp looked at the Canucks roster many a time while figuring out where they wanted to sign. I'm sure they noticed no Canuck wore #11 during the 96/97 season.

So why would Messier need to make an easily available number a demand in his contract?

They probably knew about the Maki stuff and this was a way to tell the Canucks to quietly get something done behind the scenes and get him 11. And when it was handled poorly they pleaded ignorance

It’s the players job to ask for what he wants and it’s the teams job to say no to something that is a problem. If it was a problem, that’s on the Nucks. If something needed to be arranged with the Maki family but wasn’t, before they signed Mess, that is also on the Canucks. Perpetual victims, these Nucks fans.

 

[BudBundy]

Mark Messier in Vancouver was an absolute sack of shit and deserves every bit of hate he gets from Canuck fans, and then some.

Except on this issue. The number thing wasn't his fault - it was the fault of weak Canuck management who were willing to throw team history in the trash to get their marquee signing.

Lol. When the Nucks finally climbed out of the sewer in the Ohlund, Naslund, Bertuzzi era, Naslund told the press that they were successful because of the lessons Messier taught them. He had been gone for several years at that point. No need to fabricate platitudes he didn’t believe. Jason Strudwick played in Vancouver on the team with Mess. He says Mess is the greatest leader in sports and announced on radio that “if Mess told me there was a loose puck to get, inside the gates of Hell, I’d have followed.” But ya. Hate on the 42 year old trying to break a loser culture cuz you didn’t win the Cup. Lol.

 

[RandV]

Yes, I may be misinterpreting the Beverly Maki recollection of events. The Sun's description is sort of ambiguous.

The incident has nothing whatsoever to do with Messier himself, either way.

This turns it into a very strange topic but he could have always... simply chosen to not where #11. Regardless of how events went down, Messier should have been well aware of the problem by training camp and started in a different number but chose not to. I call it a strange topic because it's like having a conflict between two religious customs and having to decide which one is more valid. In this case Messier's desire to wear the same number he's always worn, or the Maki families wish to have no other Canuck player wear that number.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

The incident has nothing whatsoever to do with Messier himself, either way.

Note you specifically said "Canucks' treatment of him", not Messier's treatment of him. I agree that fans were rubbed the wrong way, but it wasn't Messier's fault (unless you blame him for signing for more money than he was worth... in which case, remember the next time your employer offers you twice your current salary, you're bound to say 'no thanks' because you might not deserve it!).

But are you really suggesting that Messier never knew the circumstances as to #11 being out of circulation neither before nor after signing there?

If Messier demands his trademark number regardless of those circumstances, I say it’s highly likely that the Canucks will accept all of the blame for breaking their promise to Maki’s family in order to get his signature and keep their prestigious superstar signing happy.

Imagine it was #99 that Maki had worn and Gretzky that they would have signed. If they really wanted his signature, it’s up to Gretzky to choose between honoring the wishes of the Maki family by opting for a different number, or honoring his personal trademark. If Gretzky wants the number, the Canucks have to either call off the deal, or shield their superstar from any backlash.

While I agree that Messier seem to be receiving a lot of hatred for being involved in a series of bad moves on behalf of Mike Keenan and the Canucks organization, their fans are not in the wrong for thinking Messier was an arrogant egomaniac rather than a credulous idiot in some cases.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I don't think Messier "owed" Wayne Maki anything. While it is very sad that he died, #11 was part of Messier's brand. If the Canucks wanted to tell him no, that's fine, but it was ultimately on them to make the situation right one way or another. Messier himself didn't need to call up the widow of some guy he never met before who had been dead for 25 years at that point because of some promise that somebody else had made.

 

[Voight]

Something I just realized

In that leaked 1997 hand written contract Messier signed, one of his demands is simply stated as

9. #11

But why? I mean surely the Messier camp looked at the Canucks roster many a time while figuring out where they wanted to sign. I'm sure they noticed no Canuck wore #11 during the 96/97 season.

So why would Messier need to make an easily available number a demand in his contract?

They probably knew about the Maki stuff and this was a way to tell the Canucks to quietly get something done behind the scenes and get him 11. And when it was handled poorly they pleaded ignorance

3. Damn a whole luxury box just for his family and friends? Thats huge, given how much a team can sell/rent them for. Tickets is normal, IIRC every payer gets 2 tickets to every game.

5. I'm confused about this one.

6. $3,000 for a 3 BR apartment in the mid 90s doesn't seem crazy. Either way, given his age and the term of the deal I can see why this was included. Don't think he was going to uproot his family.

8. Hard to read the pencil writing underneath but I guess this means travel paid for his agent? Wasn't that his dad?

Rest of it seems pretty standard. Vets usually get their own room on the road, insurance is normal, moving allowance as well, NTC is nothing out of the blue. Same with the charity stuff, players usually want teams to partner with their foundations.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

8. Hard to read the pencil writing underneath but I guess this means travel paid for his agent? Wasn't that his dad?

idk, but if it was daddy messier was a smart dude for negotiating 18. phantom stock

incidentally, here's all three pages:

 

[WarriorofTime]

3. Damn a whole luxury box just for his family and friends? Thats huge, given how much a team can sell/rent them for. Tickets is normal, IIRC every payer gets 2 tickets to every game.

5. I'm confused about this one.

6. $3,000 for a 3 BR apartment in the mid 90s doesn't seem crazy. Either way, given his age and the term of the deal I can see why this was included. Don't think he was going to uproot his family.

8. Hard to read the pencil writing underneath but I guess this means travel paid for his agent? Wasn't that his dad?

Rest of it seems pretty standard. Vets usually get their own room on the road, insurance is normal, moving allowance as well, NTC is nothing out of the blue. Same with the charity stuff, players usually want teams to partner with their foundations.

5 is asking the team to pay for his fees in negotiating the contract.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I can't believe Messier got phantom stock negotiated in there, what a fool Vancouver was to give that up. That was worth as much as the Contract itself. I guess they didn't realize the value of pro sports franchises was going to explode but OOF, that's a big L from Canucks ownership.

 

[Voight]

@vadim sharifijanov thanks for sharing. Kind of a LOL that its handwritten. looks like someone wrote it on their way to the meeting and just threw everything at the wall to see what would stick

I presume he wanted to live in Washington for tax (or personal) reasons / he was probably a US Citizen at that point having spent 7 years in NY. Also quirky that in the same contract he demanded a 3 bedroom apartment in Vancouver. Guess for those late games where he didn't feel like driving back to the border / if he had people visit.

 

[WarriorofTime]

@vadim sharifijanov thanks for sharing. Kind of a LOL that its handwritten. looks like someone wrote it on their way to the meeting and just threw everything at the wall to see what would stick

I presume he wanted to live in Washington for tax (or personal) reasons / he was probably a US Citizen at that point having spent 7 years in NY. Also quirky that in the same contract he demanded a 3 bedroom apartment in Vancouver. Guess for those late games where he didn't feel like driving back to the border / if he had people visit.

Well these were his notes, so it makes sense if he was coming to the negotiating table, he'd want to come prepared with the things he wanted to discuss.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

@vadim sharifijanov thanks for sharing. Kind of a LOL that its handwritten. looks like someone wrote it on their way to the meeting and just threw everything at the wall to see what would stick

I presume he wanted to live in Washington for tax (or personal) reasons / he was probably a US Citizen at that point having spent 7 years in NY. Also quirky that in the same contract he demanded a 3 bedroom apartment in Vancouver. Guess for those late games where he didn't feel like driving back to the border / if he had people visit.

upthread i jokingly called it a napkin

i definitely feel like this was something that the canucks' new CEO, messier, and his dad or whoever his agent was scribbled one night in bar in lower manhattan

tbh, messier isn't the only canuck to live in washington for tax purposes. mogilny did, and later very famously john tortorella would, both for tax reasons. torts would routinely delegate practices to his assistants because he was on the wrong side of the border and apparently made his staff rig up a sleeping quarters for him in the arena after he got reamed for not being at practices. that's the real reason he was fired, not for missing the playoffs or picking a fight with the entire calgary flames team; he wasn't doing his job and the higher ups were furious with him.

i don't know if messier had dual or US citizenship at that point, but i don't think it would have mattered. because of the canada/US tax treaty he could have just waived his canadian tax liability and declared as a washington resident.

and for context, messier probably lived in point roberts, washington, which is where almo and torts lived. it's less than an hour drive from downtown vancouver, where our arena is, not counting the wait at the border. by contrast, abbotsford, where our new AHL team just moved, is about an hour and a half away.

 

[Voight]

upthread i jokingly called it a napkin

i definitely feel like this was something that the canucks' new CEO, messier, and his dad or whoever his agent was scribbled one night in bar in lower manhattan

tbh, messier isn't the only canuck to live in washington for tax purposes. mogilny did, and later very famously john tortorella would, both for tax reasons. torts would routinely delegate practices to his assistants because he was on the wrong side of the border and apparently made his staff rig up a sleeping quarters for him in the arena after he got reamed for not being at practices. that's the real reason he was fired, not for missing the playoffs or picking a fight with the entire calgary flames team; he wasn't doing his job and the higher ups were furious with him.

i don't know if messier had dual or US citizenship at that point, but i don't think it would have mattered. because of the canada/US tax treaty he could have just waived his canadian tax liability and declared as a washington resident.

and for context, messier probably lived in point roberts, washington, which is where almo and torts lived. it's less than an hour drive from downtown vancouver, where our arena is, not counting the wait at the border. by contrast, abbotsford, where our new AHL team just moved, is about an hour and a half away.

Thanks for the info. I figured it would be for tax purposes, especially after paying most of his taxes in the US for the last seven years at that point.

Interesting contract/demands nonetheless.

 

[Sadekuuro]

the red wings have vladimir konstantinov

and Larry Aurie

 

[kaiser matias]

tbh, messier isn't the only canuck to live in washington for tax purposes. mogilny did, and later very famously john tortorella would, both for tax reasons. torts would routinely delegate practices to his assistants because he was on the wrong side of the border and apparently made his staff rig up a sleeping quarters for him in the arena after he got reamed for not being at practices. that's the real reason he was fired, not for missing the playoffs or picking a fight with the entire calgary flames team; he wasn't doing his job and the higher ups were furious with him.

For those unaware, there's a US exclave, Point Roberts, that is only accessible via Canada, which is right outside Vancouver (more so than the rest of Washington): Google Maps suggests a 45 minute drive to GM Place, not factoring in traffic or border control (which I believe is minimal, as just over 1,000 people live there).

 

[vikash1987]

Couple points:

1. According to the papers later that fall, Wayne Maki's family did say that they were OK seeing Messier wear #11 on the Canucks, just so long as the Canucks gave some sort of public acknowledgment of the fact that (a) the number had been retired back in the '70s, and (b) it would once again be retired after Messier. This was mainly a question about principle, and about respect for a deceased husband/father/Canucks alum. (Though the question over whether the number was officially or unofficially "retired" was, in fact, cause for some of the disconnect.)
2. Wayne Maki's family bore no ill will toward Messier. They apparently viewed him as a class act. It was Pat Quinn and the Canucks org. with whom they were mainly upset. Messier had several conversations in private with Pat Quinn about the whole situation, and he even offered to meet with the family. But Quinn told him that he was handling the situation, and not to worry about it.