GDT: Merged GAME 17 | Sens Rally in Raleigh | Sat Nov 16 2024, 7PM | SN1, TVAS 2

[Blotto71]

One last remaining thought - the play is whistled dead by the referee on the Pinto penalty at 2:43.

The most optimistic interpretation of Carolina's first PP goal is they score at 42 seconds on the dot.

Just to make it clear what a shitshow that crew was. The NHL will sell this as referees calling a tight game. They let the clock run long on the Pinto whistle and didn't adjust on the initial call and then with less than 42 seconds left decided to give the benefit of the doubt to Carolina by saying the first PP goal was scored while still on the first penalty despite officially calling the penalty on Pinto with at minimum 2:42 left in the period.

The entire crew needs to be fired. It's completely unacceptable. Coincidentally in a ~15 minute span in the second period that many questionable decisions go against one team? It beggars belief.

I'm watching the replay this morning because I couldn't believe how bad the 2nd half of the 2nd period was when I watched last night.

No mistake, it was f***ing terrible!

Canes are certainly a good team, but the Stutzle disallowed goal, and penalty, and phantom slash call on Pinto, and questionable TMM call all completely altered the trajectory of the game.

 

[Blotto71]

Sure, but the one goal that did not count would not have produced in a Win either though.

You don't know that. That was a game that the Sens were hanging on in. Could have gone to OT or SO, or maybe a regulation win just as likely as not. Canes got 1 goal, 2 PP markers*, and an empty netter. 3 of 4 don't necessarily happen with competent officiating.

 

[Big Muddy]

I'm watching the replay this morning because I couldn't believe how bad the 2nd half of the 2nd period was when I watched last night.

No mistake, it was f***ing terrible!

Canes are certainly a good team, but the Stutzle disallowed goal, and penalty, and phantom slash call on Pinto, and questionable TMM call all completely altered the trajectory of the game.

What I heard on the broadcast that I was watching is that Stutzle knocked the stick out of the Canes’ (Slavin I think) defenders hands. You could see Slavin making a protest (wtf) gesture and pick up his stick that was lying on the ice, but the camera angle (which was blocked) didn’t really clearly show what Stutzle was doing.

 

[Micklebot]

What are the stats for us this year when we pull the goalie?
We can go further back too.

What are the stats for us tying up a game when down by three in the final 5 min without pulling the goalie? You can expand to other teams I'd you want, you made the initial claim, how about you do the work in backing up made up stats that go contrary to convention. I'll wait.

 

[Big Muddy]

You don't know that. That was a game that the Sens were hanging on in. Could have gone to OT or SO, or maybe a regulation win just as likely as not. Canes got 1 goal, 2 PP markers*, and an empty netter. 3 of 4 don't necessarily happen with competent officiating.

Canes completely dominated big chunks of that game like for example in 1st period where they hemmed us in our own zone. I made a post about the Stutzle disallowed goal - see above (#603). Its not just what a ref does, but its also what we do and what our opponent does that affects the outcome. More Senator goals would have helped the Senators cause immensely. From what I observed, the Canes were the better team, and played a strong game defensively. I agree that there were some bad ref calls, but not sure that was enough to swing the game in our favour against a good team that played well.

 

[Micklebot]

What I heard on the broadcast that I was watching is that Stutzle knocked the stick out of the Canes’ (Slavin I think) defenders hands. You could see Slavin making a protest (wtf) gesture and pick up his stick that was lying on the ice, but the camera angle (which was blocked) didn’t really clearly show what Stutzle was doing.

Stü was bring his stick back to receive the pass/one timer, Slavin reached in one handed overtop of Stu's stick to disrupt the shot but lost the handle of his stick,

It was a comically bad call.

 

[Micklebot]

Canes completely dominated big chunks of that game like for example in 1st period where they hemmed us in our own zone. I made a post about the Stutzle disallowed goal - see above (#603). More Senator goals would have helped the Senators cause immensely. From what I observed, the Canes were the better team, and played a strong game defensively. I agree that there were some bad ref calls, but not sure that was enough to swing the game in our favour against a good team that played well.

Without terrible officiating, it's a tie game going into the third, the refs handed the canes a 3 goal swing, one disallowed goal and two PP goals on penalties which were works of fiction, who knows what would have happened after that, we were the better team in the third but score effect is a thing so hard to make any definitive claims one way or another.

 

[Big Muddy]

Stü was bring his stick back to receive the pass/one timer, Slavin reached in one handed overtop of Stu's stick to disrupt the shot but lost the handle of his stick,

It was a comically bad call.

I use ESPN + and watched the replays and can wind back to wherever I want in a game. I didn’t see that. ESPN+ used the Sportsnet broadcast.

I don’t think we did enough to win that game, but whatever I suppose. I think a team needs to do enough on its own to win versus a game boiling down to refs and bad calls to determine the results. I’ll move on. Same old, same old in here.

Without terrible officiating, it's a tie game going into the third, the refs handed the canes a 3 goal swing, one disallowed goal and two PP goals on penalties which were works of fiction, who knows what would have happened after that, we were the better team in the third but score effect is a thing so hard to make any definitive claims one way or another.

Re: bolded - And the Canes were the better team the rest of the game.

 

[Tuna99]

Without terrible officiating, it's a tie game going into the third, the refs handed the canes a 3 goal swing, one disallowed goal and two PP goals on penalties which were works of fiction, who knows what would have happened after that, we were the better team in the third but score effect is a thing so hard to make any definitive claims one way or another.

If our goalies were playing well we wouldn’t have these feelings

 

[StoicSensFan]

Yeah still very not cool with all of this

 

[Tuna99]

Bring back Claire Hannah and keep her here, many nights she’s the best part of the broadcast

 

[Blotto71]

What I heard on the broadcast that I was watching is that Stutzle knocked the stick out of the Canes’ (Slavin I think) defenders hands. You could see Slavin making a protest (wtf) gesture and pick up his stick that was lying on the ice, but the camera angle (which was blocked) didn’t really clearly show what Stutzle was doing.

Stutzle was positioning himself (and his stick) to one time a pass.

 

[Big Muddy]

Stutzle was positioning himself (and his stick) to one time a pass.

I’ve already made several posts (see above) on this subject. You can read them to get the gist (big picture) of what I’m saying. But specifically, for just this one goal, I’m not just going on what I heard btw. It’s based on what I saw both on broadcast replays and winding it back to that segment (something you can do on ESPN+). But, there are broader issues at work here which I’ve mentioned in other posts. I’m moving on.

 

[thinkwild]

I dont recall ever seeing another penalty like that one Stü took. A very strange call. But still at best, maybe we could have won a game that we didnt really deserve to win if all went right. They are contenders and we are hoping to make the playoffs. We can see the progress that still needs to be made. And the Sens had some flashes. It looks like it is in there. Still gotta learn how to do it consistently. Wasnt expecting it this year really either

 

[Micklebot]

I use ESPN + and watched the replays and can wind back to wherever I want in a game. I didn’t see that. ESPN+ used the Sportsnet broadcast.

I don’t think we did enough to win that game, but whatever I suppose. I think a team needs to do enough on its own to win versus a game boiling down to refs and bad calls to determine the results. I’ll move on. Same old, same old in here.

Well, it's very clear on the replay that Slavin is reaching in to disrupt Stutzle's stick, that's not debatable imo, so if can't agree on the specifics of what happened after he reached in, the question is do you want a situation were a player can drop his stick on contact to draw a penalty? Because Stu didn't come down with a slash of any force at all, he at worst moved his stick back to push away Slavins stick, just like Slavin was trying to disrupt Stu's. If Stu was the one dropping his stick without any major force applied, should that be a penalty on Slavin? We;d have a dropped stick epidemic, it's an absurd call even if you believe somehow Stu's the one who knocked the stick loose.

Re: bolded - And the Canes were the better team the rest of the game.

Not the rest of the game, the first 10 mins until the first goal absolutely, after that things were much closer. If you want to say overall, you might have a case, but the second was pretty evenly played, you could make a fairly strong case that we were the better team in the second too.

Heck, here are the Sens stats at 5v5 for the game.

Period​	CF%​	SF%​	SCF%​	HDCF%​	xGF%​
1​	27.59%​	21.43%​	28.57%​	25.00%​	27.19%​
2​	50.00%​	55.56%​	50.00%​	66.67%​	63.03%​
3​	62.50%​	70.00%​	60.00%​	100.00%​	78.90%​
Final​	45.45%​	45.45%​	46.15%​	61.54%​	52.04%​

Here's the Corsi map

There's a pretty stark difference after that first goal in both the map and the underlying stats. If you want to say the Canes were the better team overall, I think thats a fair opinion to hold. But it's built mostly on 10 mins of play. The rest of the game at worst was pretty even,

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

View attachment 931849
Low res, sorry, but clearly 2 coming on with 2 at the bench going off - one at either end. There may have been another change following the play up ice, going to try to find that later, as you say.

EDIT: what this doesn't show is there are already 2 Sens at the defensive blue line, and Norris is off screen in the Carolina end. Legit TMM, but I won't change my opinion on the Stutzle or Pinto calls (and would argue that this TMM situation doesn't exist w/o the 5hitty call on Pinto).

Yah I am now watching a replay.. What we see is Sanderson goin in the D door but we did not get shown a player coming on for him, which reasonably happened.
Norris fell on the rush down the ice and was late coming off for the change. So yes the evidence we can see it certainly looked like there were 2 players going off and 2 coming on (thru 1 door) and the next frame shows 4 defenders looking like there isn't too many men but Norris was way up the ice and late. I was wrong and @Knave had it right. Easy to be fooled from what we could see without a full replay.

 

[Blotto71]

Yah I am now watching a replay.. What we see is Sanderson goin in the D door but we did not get shown a player coming on for him, which reasonably happened.
Norris fell on the rush down the ice and was late coming off for the change. So yes the evidence we can see it certainly looked like there were 2 players going off and 2 coming on (thru 1 door) and the next frame shows 4 defenders looking like there isn't too many men but Norris was way up the ice and late. I was wrong and @Knave had it right. Easy to be fooled from what we could see without a full replay.

Yes, agreed. I edited my earlier post with much the same. Looks like Greig came on early for Norris.

 

[Blotto71]

Wither Perron back, is it time for Greig to come out, and for Ostapchuk to get some games? I'd also prefer Gregor over Cousins.

With the next 3 games in Ottawa I'd like to see if Gaudette can find chemistry in the top 6 and swap Ostapchuk for Greig, sit Cousins - enough with Cousins and Greig "aggitating", it isn't throwing anyone but the Sens off their game. Time to lay the body and play mean.

Tkachuk - Norris - Gaudette
Giroux - Stutzle - Batherson
Perron - Pinto - Amadio
Gregor - Ostapchuk - MacEwan

 

[maclean]

Well, technically we did score one goal. One that would've counted 99.99999999999% of the time.

What was the situation on this? They didn't show it in the highlights.. (of course)

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

I wish we had confirmation that refs were given bad grades (or whatever phrase) and that there were some level of accountability and consequences. We know there is an off ice official that reviews calls with them and that quality of reffing may impact chances to ref in the post-season, but that seems hollow when we lose a game so affected by bad officiating (which seemed to be one sided, but acknowledge my bias)

 

[Norris4Norris]

I don't want to say the refs were being paid, but they must be lifelong Hurricanes fans.

 

[Xspyrit]

Is there a way to make an official COMPLAINT to the NHL?

Well, technically we did score one goal. One that would've counted 99.99999999999% of the time.

Just saw this again, when you look from above, it's pretty obvious that Stutzle's stick movement was to get ready to one-time the puck

There was no way we could have appealed for that?

99.9% of hockey fans would tell you it's a good goal, unless biased haters I guess.

Sure, but the one goal that did not count would not have produced in a Win either though.

You never know, a goal there or there can really change the outcome of a game. When you pair this with the Pinto call, it seriously changed the outcome of the game

We needed bounces and calls to go our way and it did the opposite so we lost as a result. Canes are really hard to beat at home. I want Brind'Amour as our coach

 

[Loach]

I wish we had confirmation that refs were given bad grades (or whatever phrase) and that there were some level of accountability and consequences. We know there is an off ice official that reviews calls with them and that quality of reffing may impact chances to ref in the post-season, but that seems hollow when we lose a game so affected by bad officiating (which seemed to be one sided, but acknowledge my bias)

Good Refs/Linesmen get playoff games. There is a page that shows the officials for games and the stats they have.

Scouting the Refs.

 

[Icelevel]

What are the stats for us tying up a game when down by three in the final 5 min without pulling the goalie? You can expand to other teams I'd you want, you made the initial claim, how about you do the work in backing up made up stats that go contrary to convention. I'll wait.

I already know that it’s a very bad idea to pull your goaltender out of the net in almost all situations. Especially if you are the Ottawa senators of late.
I don’t need to prove that to myself.
If it was important enough to you then you could argue and go look up some stats.
But not something I’m interested in doing.
I know for a fact that the very large majority of goals scored in the nhl are scored with your goaltender in the net so it’s not really a big disadvantage. With an empty net however you are obviously taking a huge risk that imo is not worth it at all.
I’ve watched the team lose almost immediately when pulling the goaltender a number of times this year. Not something I want to see again.

 

[Micklebot]

I already know that it’s a very bad idea to pull your goaltender out of the net in almost all situations. Especially if you are the Ottawa senators of late.
I don’t need to prove that to myself.
If it was important enough to you then you could argue and go look up some stats.
But not something I’m interested in doing.

No, you claimed that without evidence and decided everyone else is wrong.

By your logic goalies should never be pulled, every coach in the NHL and every level below it are all wrong because you said so.


It's not important enough for me to fact check your nonsense, it's fine, you can carry on making foolish claims, I'll just be rolling my eyes and ignoring it.