McDavid is on a serious run to try and break Gretzky's single season playoff assist record (he did it)

[Thallis]

I'm allowed to have my opinion. It just isn't as impressive when done in more games for me. If someone comes along and breaks mcdavids record in 26 games I'll feel the same way about that guys new record not being as impressive as mcdavids scoring in 22 games. Also, the 12 extra goals the Oilers scored...6 of those can be thrown out because gretzky has 6 more goals than mcdavid. Hard to assist on goals you are scoring on.

It's always so funny when people get challenged on something and then respond by essentially saying "I'm allowed to believe stupid things."

 

[ChaoticOrange]

FWIW, Bouchard is 2 away from tying the Playoff assist record for a Dman.

Impossible. Many, many stupid people have assured me that he is an ECHL defenceman.

 

[Sniper99]

Impossible. Many, many stupid people have assured me that he is an ECHL defenceman.

HF doing HF things.

 

[JimmyH]

"I'm allowed to believe stupid things."

You probably missed his point that the number of games it took for McDavid to break Gretzky's assist record exceeds the number of games in which the record was set (nevermind that Gretzky also scored more goals), thus McDavid's performance is less impressive.

 

[EXTRAS]

Okay, so the percentage gap still in McDavid’s favor tightens (while ignoring that all goals were generated in an environment that allowed for an extra goal per game).

I know you’re allowed to have an opinion, lol, that’s what is known without being stated every time we hit submit on our posts.

As is being responded to.

The "I'm allowed yo have an opinion" was in response to "no reason to downplay it." Giving my opinion isn't necessarily downplaying mcdavids achievement. It actually hasn't anything to do with mcdavid or gretzky as I am more of a lemeiux guy. I just happen to think putting up stats in less games is more impressive.

 

[hamzarocks]

If we're going to really play that card, lets be honest, Wayne and Mario played against garbage goaltending and defenses in their hey day.

McDavid is putting up his numbers against actual goaltending and defensive structure. The 80s and even well into the 90s doesn't hold a candle to how much the sport has changed from about 1996 onwards. There are AHL goalies today that are better than NHL goalies from the 80s especially, the 80s was a total joke.

A Connor McDavid would light goalies like this up like a Christmas tree

Defensive structure and coaching was also significantly worse, a lot of teams basically just played the equivalent of pond hockey back then, trading chances back and forth all night long.

Lemieux put up a 140 pt pace in 2001 i think

Dead puck era hockey, after various injuries and cancer.

He would be ahead of Mcdavid now as well though not by 30-40 pts (10-15 pts better)

 

[Video Nasty]

The "I'm allowed yo have an opinion" was in response to "no reason to downplay it." Giving my opinion isn't necessarily downplaying mcdavids achievement. It actually hasn't anything to do with mcdavid or gretzky as I am more of a lemeiux guy. I just happen to think putting up stats in less games is more impressive.

You must be really enamored with the NBA triple double explosion over the past decade.

 

[KeyserSoze81]

I'm allowed to have my opinion. It just isn't as impressive when done in more games for me. If someone comes along and breaks mcdavids record in 26 games I'll feel the same way about that guys new record not being as impressive as mcdavids scoring in 22 games. Also, the 12 extra goals the Oilers scored...6 of those can be thrown out because gretzky has 6 more goals than mcdavid. Hard to assist on goals you are scoring on.

And we are entitled to tell you why it is a bad opinion when you proclaim it on a message board. We attack terrible opinions on their merit, for we cannot let someone be wrong on the internet.

 

[EXTRAS]

You must be really enamored with the NBA triple double explosion over the past decade.

This is a hockey forum. Chill.

And we are entitled to tell you why it is a bad opinion when you proclaim it on a message board. We attack terrible opinions, not people.

I believe your opinion is bad. Consider it attacked!

 

[Sasha Orlov]

FWIW, Bouchard is 2 away from tying the Playoff assist record for a Dman.

Too bad his multiple defensive lapses invalidate any records he may achieve

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Say no more. I can post the league averages for all of the years but here are the numbers.

Historical playoff league averages:

EVG: 2.03, PPG: 0.74, SHG: 0.10

Wayne Gretzky playoffs adjusted

79-80: 3 GP: 2 G, 1 A, 3 PTS
80-81: 9 GP: 5 G, 10 A, 15 PTS
81-82: 5 GP: 5 G, 6 A, 11 PTS
82-83: 16 GP: 9 G, 19 A, 28 PTS
83-84: 19 GP: 12 G, 21 A, 33 PTS
84-85: 18 GP: 13 G, 22 A, 35 PTS
85-86: 10 GP: 7 G, 11 A, 18 PTS
86-87: 21 GP: 5 G, 27 A, 32 PTS
87-88: 19 GP: 9 G, 22 A, 31 PTS

Oilers playoff totals:
120 GP: 67 G, 139 A, 206 PTS (1.72)

Connor McDavid playoffs adjusted

16-17: 13 GP: 6 G, 5 A, 11 PTS
19-20: 4 GP: 5 G, 4 A, 9 PTS
20-21: 4 GP: 1 G, 3 A, 4 PTS
21-22: 16 GP: 9 G, 21 A, 30 PTS
22-23: 12 GP: 8 G, 11 A, 19 PTS
23-24: 22 GP: 6 G, 34 A, 40 PTS

Totals:
71 GP: 35 G, 78 A, 113 PTS (1.59)

Mario Lemieux playoffs adjusted

88-89: 11 GP: 9 G, 6 A, 15 PTS
90-91: 23 GP: 13 G, 24 A, 37 PTS
91-92: 15 GP: 13 G, 16 A, 29 PTS
92-93: 11 GP: 6 G, 8 A, 14 PTS
93-94: 6 GP: 4 G, 3 A, 7 PTS
95-96: 18 GP: 11 G, 14 A, 25 PTS
96-97: 5 GP: 4 G, 3 A, 7 PTS
00-01: 18 GP: 7 G, 12, 19 PTS

Totals:
107 GP: 67 G, 86 A, 153 PTS (1.43)

To match McDavid’s first 9 years (71 GP and 113 P for 1.59 ppg) Gretzky is at 206 in 120 (1.72) and Lemieux 95 in 60 (1.58)

McDavid has the edge on Lemieux for two best runs combined and for adjusted playoff ppg. For regular season adjusted ppg through the first 9 years it is 1.64 for Lemieux and 1.61 for McDavid. This really helps McDavid’s future case for second best player ever given his overall career trajectory. Longevity very well could be what breaks this essentially relative equivalence between the two.

I disagree with this pretty strongly. Using your numbers, McDavid is right around Lemieux for adjusted playoff points - an accomplishment in itself - but Lemieux's real value wasn't just his points, it was his goals. His playoff goals are insanely high. Dude's a 61 goal/82 game player in the postseason. That's crazy good. Significantly better than Gretz. I haven't looked at adjusted totals but with raw numbers even Maurice Richard (legendary playoff performer) is at 51 per 82. Bossy is at 54/82. Obviously Richard would go up when you adjust but regardless, Lemieux's numbers are unparalleled.

Mario was a phenomenal playoff scorer and points are only half the story with him. Goals are a lot more valuable than assists are.

In terms of regular seasons, Lemieux's goal numbers dwarf everyone - including Gretzky. And he didn't just win scoring titles, he obliterated people on goals per game.

McDavid may very well pass Mario's totals. He may win more trophies over the years but he'll never be the player Lemieux was.

 

[WalterLundy]

I disagree with this pretty strongly. Using your numbers, McDavid is right around Lemieux for adjusted playoff points - an accomplishment in itself - but Lemieux's real value wasn't just his points, it was his goals. His playoff goals are insanely high. Dude's a 61 goal/82 game player in the postseason. That's crazy good. Significantly better than Gretz. I haven't looked at adjusted totals but with raw numbers even Maurice Richard (legendary playoff performer) is at 51 per 82. Bossy is at 54/82. Obviously Richard would go up when you adjust but regardless, Lemieux's numbers are unparalleled.

Mario was a phenomenal playoff scorer and points are only half the story with him. Goals are a lot more valuable than assists are.

In terms of regular seasons, Lemieux's goal numbers dwarf everyone - including Gretzky. And he didn't just win scoring titles, he obliterated people on goals per game.

McDavid may very well pass Mario's totals. He may win more trophies over the years but he'll never be the player Lemieux was.

My point only was to show that in a relative sense McDavid is only trailing Gretzky as a per game playoff point producer. I don’t personally buy into the goals being way more valuable than assists thing as I’ve seen it discussed endlessly on here and to me it is a waste. I get people’s opinions on both sides but to me it’s just overall silly.

Adjusted numbers also aren’t everything I only used them to compare Gretzky and Lemieux to Crosby and McDavid as they are relevant in that case comparing players from significantly different eras. Otherwise I think they can be overused. As for McDavid having a better career via awards and overall adjusted stats/career totals that’s very possible but I do agree that Lemieux has the higher absolute peak as a player and it’ll likely stay that way.

As for his goal scoring being significantly better than Gretzky that is false. Gretzky obviously has the totals on Lemieux for regular season and playoffs but he’s also better for even sample sizes. 76 to 71 in favor of Lemieux through 107 playoff games for goals and 715 to 690 in favor for Gretzky through 915 regular season games. 786 to 766 overall in favor of Gretzky in an exactly even sample size (1022 total games) so he is not much better he’s actually slightly worse as a goal scorer. Gretzky also did this while dishing out an extra 425 assists on Lemieux (445 total point gap, 36 points per 82 games gap) on top of that which makes this all the more impressive given he was lightyears better as a passer/playmaker while still maintaining a better goal scoring rate here. If he focused on goal scoring more it could hav been much worse.

 

[Fourier]

Too bad his multiple defensive lapses invalidate any records he may achieve

The good far outweighs the bad. After McDavid, Bouchard is as responsible as any Oiler for them being in the final.

 

[blundluntman]

If we're going to really play that card, lets be honest, Wayne and Mario played against garbage goaltending and defenses in their hey day.

McDavid is putting up his numbers against actual goaltending and defensive structure. The 80s and even well into the 90s doesn't hold a candle to how much the sport has changed from about 1996 onwards. There are AHL goalies today that are better than NHL goalies from the 80s especially, the 80s was a total joke.

A Connor McDavid would light goalies like this up like a Christmas tree

Defensive structure and coaching was also significantly worse, a lot of teams basically just played the equivalent of pond hockey back then, trading chances back and forth all night long.

If you put a modern day goalie in 80s leather pads that get heavier every period the more melted ice it absorbs (which essentially rules out the butterfly position that every goalie today uses), even Andrei Vasilevsky would look like an AHL goalie. Patrick Roy in his late 30s in the early 2000s won a conn smythe, finished top 3 in vezina voting in his final 2 seasons (at age 37 & 38) and put up two seasons with a .920+ sv%. That should tell you just how much of a difference equipment makes when evaluating goalies. Just try playing in net without the ability to use the butterfly style and see how impressive anybody looks. And try using defensive structures nowadays with that quality of goaltending as your backbone.. You'll quickly realize how impractical it is and you'll realize how much of hockey is dependent on equipment as opposed to talent.

As for McDavid, he'd have to use 80s skates and a heavy ass wooden stick just like Mario/Gretzky did. It wouldn't go the way you think it would.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

The good far outweighs the bad. After McDavid, Bouchard is as responsible as any Oiler for them being in the final.

I was joking man

 

[Fourier]

I was joking man

Gotcha!!

 

[Juxta Position]

I disagree with this pretty strongly. Using your numbers, McDavid is right around Lemieux for adjusted playoff points - an accomplishment in itself - but Lemieux's real value wasn't just his points, it was his goals. His playoff goals are insanely high. Dude's a 61 goal/82 game player in the postseason. That's crazy good. Significantly better than Gretz. I haven't looked at adjusted totals but with raw numbers even Maurice Richard (legendary playoff performer) is at 51 per 82. Bossy is at 54/82. Obviously Richard would go up when you adjust but regardless, Lemieux's numbers are unparalleled.

Mario was a phenomenal playoff scorer and points are only half the story with him. Goals are a lot more valuable than assists are.

In terms of regular seasons, Lemieux's goal numbers dwarf everyone - including Gretzky. And he didn't just win scoring titles, he obliterated people on goals per game.

McDavid may very well pass Mario's totals. He may win more trophies over the years but he'll never be the player Lemieux was.

Ok, but almost half of Lemieux's career playoff points were on the powerplay, and HF told me powerplay points don't count as much as 5v5 points, so then the fact that Mario has more goals but higher % of those on the powerplay, it should all balance out right?

 

[McShogun99]

Impossible. Many, many stupid people have assured me that he is an ECHL defenceman.

But did he come close to breaking the ECHL record for most assists by a Dman??????

 

[McShogun99]

Lemieux put up a 140 pt pace in 2001 i think

Dead puck era hockey, after various injuries and cancer.

He would be ahead of Mcdavid now as well though not by 30-40 pts (10-15 pts better)

I grew up watching both Gretzky and Lemieux and am currently a huge fan of Mcdavid but Lemieux was the best ever talent to play the game.

 

[Canovin]

Ask Hyman if his goals are worth much more than McDavid's assists

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

My point only was to show that in a relative sense McDavid is only trailing Gretzky as a per game playoff point producer. I don’t personally buy into the goals being way more valuable than assists thing as I’ve seen it discussed endlessly on here and to me it is a waste. I get people’s opinions on both sides but to me it’s just overall silly.

Adjusted numbers also aren’t everything I only used them to compare Gretzky and Lemieux to Crosby and McDavid as they are relevant in that case comparing players from significantly different eras. Otherwise I think they can be overused. As for McDavid having a better career via awards and overall adjusted stats/career totals that’s very possible but I do agree that Lemieux has the higher absolute peak as a player and it’ll likely stay that way.

As for his goal scoring being significantly better than Gretzky that is false. Gretzky obviously has the totals on Lemieux for regular season and playoffs but he’s also better for even sample sizes. 76 to 71 in favor of Lemieux through 107 playoff games for goals and 715 to 690 in favor for Gretzky through 915 regular season games. 786 to 766 overall in favor of Gretzky in an exactly even sample size (1022 total games) so he is not much better he’s actually slightly worse as a goal scorer. Gretzky also did this while dishing out an extra 425 assists on Lemieux (445 total point gap, 36 points per 82 games gap) on top of that which makes this all the more impressive given he was lightyears better as a passer/playmaker while still maintaining a better goal scoring rate here. If he focused on goal scoring more it could hav been much worse.

On a per game basis, Lemieux's a significantly better goalscorer.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I grew up watching both Gretzky and Lemieux and am currently a huge fan of Mcdavid but Lemieux was the best ever talent to play the game.

I agree with this. Never saw Orr or Howe though.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Congrats to McDavid top 10 points performance and most assists ever.

What an accomplishment.

 

[StreetHawk]

I grew up watching both Gretzky and Lemieux and am currently a huge fan of Mcdavid but Lemieux was the best ever talent to play the game.

Mario just the sheer combo of skill and size.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Ask Hyman if his goals are worth much more than McDavid's assists

You could have asked Marchessault the same thing about his goals and Eichel's assists, yet the voters gave Marchessault the Conn Smythe.