Maybe Tavares is the problem

[ToneDog]

Our top 2 centres are unconventional in that they're both better shooters than passers whereas centres are dynamic and usually more playmaker.

If you could fix the D and swap Tavares off this roster for a guy like Nick Suziki for example, I would be psyched.

What is there to fix on the D that can realistically be fixed? I like Suzuki but he is not the answer for me. I'd rather have a Scheifele type #2C.

 

[WTFMAN99]

What is there to fix on the D that can realistically be fixed? I like Suzuki but he is not the answer for me. I'd rather have a Scheifele type #2C.

For D? Probably missing a top 4 RD (ha!)

Rielly-Tanev
McCabe-X
OEL-Hakanpaa
Benoit

I just used Suziki as an example of a good 2C playmaking centre making a decent 6-7ish million. We're going to need centres in the very near future, after this year under contract we have...

Matthews
X
X
Kampf (overpaid 4C)

Quillan and Minten in the system but who knows if they're ready.

 

[QJo]

I sort if thought Toronto had the opposite problem: they tend to pass the puck all the way into the net. When Alex Kerfoot played in Toronto he would still look to pass even with an open net in front of him.

Not nearly enough 'make it happen' out there. Possession is important but to me you can't play soccer on small ice with such fast paced play.

 

[Nineteen67]

I think the biggest problem we have is the combination of:

• Too much $$ spent on 4 forwards, can't build a good enough supporting cast
• ... and, those 4 forwards don't step up enough in the playoffs, to make up for the weak supporting cast

The salaries our "core 4" make are truly nuts.

Top paid centres (by cap hit next season):

1. Matthews ($13.25)
2. MacKinnon ($12.6)
3. McDavid ($12.5)
4. Tavares ($11.0)

Top paid wingers (by cap hit next season):

1. Panarin ($11.64)
2. Nylander ($11.5)
3. Pastrnak ($11.25)
4. Marner ($10.9)

We've got 2 of the top 4 paid centres AND 2 of the top 4 paid wingers, which is insane. It's a crazy amount of cap to dedicate to 4 forwards, roughly half of the team's entire cap, and far more than any other team spends on their top 4 forwards. Not a single other team has even 2 forwards making $10 mil+ cap (Florida the closest with Barkov $10 mil and Tkachuck $9.5), while we've got 4 making WELL over $10 mil.

Maybe if they were playoff studs, who consistently step up big time in the playoffs, like MacKinnon, McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, Marchand, etc., then it'd work, but they aren't. Or if they would take team friendly deals, again maybe all 4 on one team would work, but they negotiate extremely hard for some of the least team friendly deals in the league.

So I think it's clear that at least 1 has to go - we just have to sacrifice far too much in terms of defence, goaltending and forward depth to make the cap work, with these 4. And yeah, I do think the obvious choice, if we're trying to be legitimately practical vs. emotional, is Tavares:

• He's very clearly the worst player of the 4, by a massive margin, today
• And looking at all playoff stats for all players, on the Leafs, Tavares is clearly the worst of the 4 by far. By far the worst playoff PPG and +/-: Leafs playoff stats since the 04/05 lockout, min 7 GP
  • FWIW he also has by far the worst advanced stats, both regular season and playoffs
  • Also, Marner has the highest playoff PPG of any Leaf, and the 2nd best +/- (best of any forward, 2nd only to Rielly)
• Plus, Tavares is the oldest by a wide margin too, 6-7 years older than the rest. To start next season:
  • Tavares will be 34
  • Nylander will be 28
  • Marner will be 27
  • Matthews will be 27

Finally, if we trade Marner now, we simply won't get much of a return, because:

• He'd be a rental, just 1 year left on his deal
• He has a full NMC. This means the market for him will be incredibly limited, only the teams he allows a trade to, which may be none, one, or a few teams. In practice, this tends to mean extremely low returns, for rentals

While if we:

• Make no trades among the big 4
• Sign Marner to an extension
• Either let Tavares walk next offseason, or bring him back only if he'll sign for a very low salary (along the lines of the Max Domi extension, as he's roughly a Domi level player now IMO)

Then yeah, this coming year is a bit of a write off/longshot in terms of playoff success, but after that at least we'll have a bunch more years to try to build a winner around Matthews/Marner/Nylander. That should be more feasible without the JT albatross contract, we'll have a lot more money to fill out the team properly. While if we trade Marner (for a very likely trash return), then we're building around just Matthews/Nylander, and honestly ... that may simply not be enough to build a contender around. This team is very weak after the "core 4," and if you whittle that down to a "core 2," without much in return (Tavares walking and Marner brining a shit return due to rental + NMC), then it's just not a very good team IMO, may not even be a playoff team.

This is a great summation of where they are and how they put themselves in tough position.

The money the get from Tavares’ gets eaten up by current players ( Knies etc) or they create more holes.

If they don’t get anything for Marner and rely on Nylander and Matthews, I think the window never opens

 

[Fogelhund]

Too much money for a role player. He's a 3C getting paid like a star.

A 3C?

How is it this fanbase has so many people like this?

Yes, 3C's are normally top 40 in scoring for their position, positive 5v5 and nearly 60% in faceoffs.

Yes, he's declined from being a 1C, to a 2C, and is now overpaid... but a 3C? I think people need to pay attention to other teams, and what they have, because this regular take by many posters is beyond ridiculous.

You want Tavares gone, because you want a culture change... that's cool.
You hate his contract, because he's now overpaid.... that's cool
You claim he's a 3C.... Now, that's just silly and completely devoid of objectivity.

Tavares isn't getting traded... we all know that's not happening, so this fantasy stuff is also devoid of intellect.

..and if Tavares doesn't re-sign (hopefully for a reasonable amount $4 mil for example).... who is replacing him, and how are you getting that superior 2C....

By the way, go ahead, name that superior 2C, and how we are getting them... in fact, don't even try to counter this post, until you can name a superior 2C that we can afford on the cap, can obtain, and how we are going to do so.

 

[The Management]

A 3C?

How is it this fanbase has so many people like this?

Yes, 3C's are normally top 40 in scoring for their position, positive 5v5 and nearly 60% in faceoffs.

Yes, he's declined from being a 1C, to a 2C, and is now overpaid... but a 3C? I think people need to pay attention to other teams, and what they have, because this regular take by many posters is beyond ridiculous.

You want Tavares gone, because you want a culture change... that's cool.
You hate his contract, because he's now overpaid.... that's cool
You claim he's a 3C.... Now, that's just silly and completely devoid of objectivity.

Tavares isn't getting traded... we all know that's not happening, so this fantasy stuff is also devoid of intellect.

..and if Tavares doesn't re-sign (hopefully for a reasonable amount $4 mil for example).... who is replacing him, and how are you getting that superior 2C....

By the way, go ahead, name that superior 2C, and how we are getting them... in fact, don't even try to counter this post, until you can name a superior 2C that we can afford on the cap, can obtain, and how we are going to do so.

Yeah, I've never really understood the amount of vitriol he receives. I get that people don't like the contract, and the cap investment is a valid area for debate, but we essentially signed a top line center when depth down the middle was in vogue across the league (the Pittsburgh Penguins being the high water mark).

You can debate the contract, the fit, the qualities he brings to the table as a captain, even whether it was the right time to make that signing n then first place... but production wise, he's been the picture of consistency throughout his career, and a luxury to have on the second line. In 1,109 NHL games he has 1,040 points. On points alone, that puts him in the top fifty, of all time, as a center (according to records.nhl.com).

I do think we need to groom or acquire a replacement to slide into the second line slot, but that's less of an indictment on Tavares, and moreso a recognition of his age, play style, and the desire to have three strong lines anchored at center instead of a stop-gap like Holmberg.

 

[hotpaws]

A 3C?

How is it this fanbase has so many people like this?

Yes, 3C's are normally top 40 in scoring for their position, positive 5v5 and nearly 60% in faceoffs.

Yes, he's declined from being a 1C, to a 2C, and is now overpaid... but a 3C? I think people need to pay attention to other teams, and what they have, because this regular take by many posters is beyond ridiculous.

You want Tavares gone, because you want a culture change... that's cool.
You hate his contract, because he's now overpaid.... that's cool
You claim he's a 3C.... Now, that's just silly and completely devoid of objectivity.

Tavares isn't getting traded... we all know that's not happening, so this fantasy stuff is also devoid of intellect.

..and if Tavares doesn't re-sign (hopefully for a reasonable amount $4 mil for example).... who is replacing him, and how are you getting that superior 2C....

By the way, go ahead, name that superior 2C, and how we are getting them... in fact, don't even try to counter this post, until you can name a superior 2C that we can afford on the cap, can obtain, and how we are going to do so.

being carried by 90 plus point wingers doesn't make you a 2nd line C , hopefully this is the last season i have to listen to people fluffing JT , this board has been making excuses for Tavares since literally his second season here and it's beyond tiring

yup trading Tavares is impossible yet trading Marner with the same nmc is easy peasey

 

[Fogelhund]

being carried by 90 plus point wingers doesn't make you a 2nd line C , hopefully this is the last season i have to listen to people fluffing JT , this board has been making excuses for Tavares since literally his second season here and it's beyond tiring

yup trading Tavares is impossible yet trading Marner with the same nmc is easy peasey

By the way, go ahead, name that superior 2C, and how we are getting them... in fact, don't even try to counter this post, until you can name a superior 2C that we can afford on the cap, can obtain, and how we are going to do so.

RIF... can't do it, can you?

 

[ACC1224]

Has there been any talk yet about an extension for Tavares?

Is it just a trait of Treliving or does it seem unusually quiet in Leaf land this summer?

 

[hotpaws]

By the way, go ahead, name that superior 2C, and how we are getting them... in fact, don't even try to counter this post, until you can name a superior 2C that we can afford on the cap, can obtain, and how we are going to do so.

RIF... can't do it, can you?

Tavares doesn't play like a C , he's good on draws then hangs around the net front below the puck waiting to be fed , and when the puck starts coming back in our end Johhny's either the last man back or just goes to the bench for a change .

i've always found it interesting how desperate people are to defend this career loser , but i know it's not his fault teams that his teams never do shit in the playoffs , it's all his teammates who've let him down since jr

 

[Dog]

Has there been any talk yet about an extension for Tavares?

Is it just a trait of Treliving or does it seem unusually quiet in Leaf land this summer?

Probably for the best that they don't even think about it.

 

[ACC1224]

Probably for the best that they don't even think about it.

Of course they're thinking about it.

 

[al secord]

Probably for the best that they don't even think about it.

Best for who? Knowing management isn't doing their job seems rather troubling.

 

[Maple Leaf]

When the game is on the line 5 on 5 in the playoffs Tavares will probably do nothing

 

[Fogelhund]

Tavares doesn't play like a C , he's good on draws then hangs around the net front below the puck waiting to be fed , and when the puck starts coming back in our end Johhny's either the last man back or just goes to the bench for a change .

i've always found it interesting how desperate people are to defend this career loser , but i know it's not his fault teams that he's on never do shit in the playoffs , it's all his teammates who've let him down since jr

Still can't answer the question!!!!!

Amazing isn't it?

Angry people blaming everyone, and every thing that they can, and we've lost all objectivity.. it's Dubas, it's Keefe, it's Marner, it's Tavares... I'm mad I didn't get my cup, and I'm going to pout and be angry about it.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Mind boggling to think there are folks that can still defend this crap in the face of reality.

 

[AvroArrow]

Mind boggling to think there are folks that can still defend this crap in the face of reality.

Tavares is not a bad player. If he was making 5-6M no one would be complaining, his contract sucks, he doesn't.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Has there been any talk yet about an extension for Tavares?

Is it just a trait of Treliving or does it seem unusually quiet in Leaf land this summer?

Why rush re-signing a guy who will be 35 in 25-26? See what he does next season.

 

[ACC1224]

Why rush re-signing a guy who will be 35 in 25-26? See what he does next season.

For sure there is certainly no rush from the Leaf side, I could see Tavares looking to get it done sooner than later.
I was more curious than anything if any discussion had begun.

 

[keonsbitterness]

For sure there is certainly no rush from the Leaf side, I could see Tavares looking to get it done sooner than later.
I was more curious than anything if any discussion had begun.

I doubt the Leafs have initiated anything.

 

[Racer88]

By the way, go ahead, name that superior 2C, and how we are getting them... in fact, don't even try to counter this post, until you can name a superior 2C that we can afford on the cap, can obtain, and how we are going to do so.

RIF... can't do it, can you?

You just highlighted the root of all their problems……the cap allocation.
If we have to name a better centre that fits under the cap that must assume that Tavares would be gone in all fairness, so without Tavares 11 million I’m betting there would be a better 2nd line centre

 

[Fogelhund]

You just highlighted the root of all their problems……the cap allocation.
If we have to name a better centre that fits under the cap that must assume that Tavares would be gone in all fairness, so without Tavares 11 million I’m betting there would be a better 2nd line centre

But you don't actually have a name?

Have you looked at who the UFA's are? Who is better as our future 2C? Granland, Gourde, Kerfoot?

 

[Racer88]

But you don't actually have a name?

Have you looked at who the UFA's are? Who is better as our future 2C? Granland, Gourde, Kerfoot?

No I do not have a name because I’m too lazy to look one up but do you really think that there is not a better 2nd line centre in the league making 11 or less.
Are there any 2 nd line centres getting paid as high as 11 million

Here’s a question. Who is the best 2nd line Center in the league and does he make 11 million or more

 

[Fogelhund]

No I do not have a name because I’m too lazy to look one up but do you really think that there is not a better 2nd line centre in the league making 11 or less.
Are there any 2 nd line centres getting paid as high as 11 million

I just gave some of the better names that might be available as UFA's.

You are allegedly betting there are better C's available. Are those three better? Given your laziness... here are the UFA C's.

2025 NHL Free Agents

Tracking the status and signings of all NHL free agents.

www.spotrac.com

 

[BlueBaron]

In short he specifically is not the problem. This will be the only year he is unlikely to sniff a ppg and it's his last. He was a market value signing which has given us a solid one two punch for years now. In a vacuum he's been decent value.

Problem is the two expensive wingers. Let's not pretend it was obvious they would have both put the numbers up they have. Mitch is a top 20 talent and Nylander isn't far behind. With hind sight you say we should have moved Marner due to poor playoffs and public relations issues. Marner becomes an 8 mil top pairing d and maybe we still have Hyman. Who's to say. Add the covid factor halting cap growth and it becomes more an issue of our inability to adapt to the changing landscape.

Not easy to throw away players like them though. How many of our records does Mitch have? If we look back at our playoff failures short of getting hurt against the Habs I don't recall a year JT was a playoff problem. In fact I remember some clutch goals. Had he been Kadri all these years I doubt we'd have been much better off.