blundluntman
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- Jul 30, 2016
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Maurice Richard Trophy Tournament (1995-Present) Round 4: 2008 Alexander Ovechkin vs 1996 Mario Lemeiux
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Ovechkin played the games. If Lemieux scored 80 in 80 it might be him, but he only had 4 more goals in a much higher scoring season.
Regarding league scoring, the Capitals played in the by far weakest division of the by far weaker conference in '08. To his credit Ovechkin scored also against other opponents, but nonetheless it was an easy schedule for him.
Plural
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- Mar 10, 2011
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Hmm...I do think Lemieux might have been a tad better scorer that year. He did miss those games and Ovechkin did not. There is value in games played.
If we're talking strictly about a better campaign, I think Ovechkin takes this. That said, Lemieux was in my opinion, a better scorer. For the nature of the poll, I'm voting Ovechkin. But as a reminder I'd like to add that Lemieux was better.
If we're talking strictly about a better campaign, I think Ovechkin takes this. That said, Lemieux was in my opinion, a better scorer. For the nature of the poll, I'm voting Ovechkin. But as a reminder I'd like to add that Lemieux was better.
filinski77
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- Feb 12, 2017
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I'll bring the stats, and I'd love to hear some actual arguments for why Lemieux's season was better. (other than "ouh wow look at raw goals in isolation").
TLDR:
1) Using the actual goals, Ovechkin simply had a more dominant season than Lemieux did.
2) Using goals/gp (which always benefits the players who did not play all the games), Ovechkin and Lemieux are virtually tied across the board
3) Ovechkin was more dominant across different types of scoring, whereas Lemieux was more reliant on the Powerplay
4) Lemieux has significantly better elite teammates to help him vs. Ovi, who put on one of the best carrying jobs of all-time.
5) Ovechkin scored better vs the good teams in the league
1) Based on what actually happened: Ovechkin had a more dominant season vs. his peers than Lemieux did
2) Based on what 'could' have happened, and pro-rate everybody's goal/gp to 82 games: They are almost completely identical.
3) Types of goals: Note that I don't care that Lemieux was fiending on the Powerplay, but I know others do.
4) Teammate support: Lemieux had 5 other point/gp players on his team, including Jagr and Ron Francis. Ovechkin essentially scored as many goals (65) as his next best teammate had points (69). Lemieux is obviously a better overall player, but he also played that season with a top-10 player of all-time, and a top-30 player of all-time.
5) Opponents played: Ovechkin played better vs. the better teams than he did vs. the poor teams. Lemieux was even (Still a good thing)
TLDR:
1) Using the actual goals, Ovechkin simply had a more dominant season than Lemieux did.
2) Using goals/gp (which always benefits the players who did not play all the games), Ovechkin and Lemieux are virtually tied across the board
3) Ovechkin was more dominant across different types of scoring, whereas Lemieux was more reliant on the Powerplay
4) Lemieux has significantly better elite teammates to help him vs. Ovi, who put on one of the best carrying jobs of all-time.
5) Ovechkin scored better vs the good teams in the league
1) Based on what actually happened: Ovechkin had a more dominant season vs. his peers than Lemieux did
| Ovi | 65 | Lemieux | 69 | |||
| #2 | 52 | 25% | #2 | 62 | 11% | |
| #3 | 50 | 30% | #3 | 55 | 25% | |
| #5 | 43 | 51% | #5 | 51 | 35% | |
| #10 | 40 | 63% | #10 | 47 | 47% | |
| #20 | 32 | 103% | #20 | 39 | 77% | |
| #30 | 29 | 124% | #30 | 34 | 103% |
2) Based on what 'could' have happened, and pro-rate everybody's goal/gp to 82 games: They are almost completely identical.
| Goal/GP | 82gp goals | % lead | Goal/GP | 82gp goals | % lead | |||
| Ovi | 0.793 | 65 | Lemieux | 0.986 | 81 | |||
| #2 | 0.658 | 54 | 21% | #2 | 0.776 | 64 | 27% | |
| #3 | 0.61 | 50 | 30% | #3 | 0.756 | 62 | 30% | |
| #5 | 0.573 | 47 | 38% | #5 | 0.658 | 54 | 50% | |
| #10 | 0.494 | 41 | 61% | #10 | 0.622 | 51 | 59% | |
| #20 | 0.423 | 35 | 87% | #20 | 0.529 | 43 | 86% | |
| #30 | 0.392 | 32 | 102% | #30 | 0.469 | 38 | 110% |
3) Types of goals: Note that I don't care that Lemieux was fiending on the Powerplay, but I know others do.
| Ovi | Lemieux | |
| ESG | 1st | 8th |
| PPG | 1st | 1st |
| GWG | 1st | 6th |
4) Teammate support: Lemieux had 5 other point/gp players on his team, including Jagr and Ron Francis. Ovechkin essentially scored as many goals (65) as his next best teammate had points (69). Lemieux is obviously a better overall player, but he also played that season with a top-10 player of all-time, and a top-30 player of all-time.
5) Opponents played: Ovechkin played better vs. the better teams than he did vs. the poor teams. Lemieux was even (Still a good thing)
| OVECHKIN | Goal/gp | 82gp pace |
| Against top-half of league | 0.84 | 69 |
| Against bottom-half of league | 0.75 | 61 |
| LEMIEUX | Goal/gp | 82gp pace |
| Against top-half of league | 1.00 | 82 |
| Against bottom-half of league | 0.97 | 80 |
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I think Ovechkin had a better goal scoring season, but Ron Francis is in no way a top 30 player of all time. He's not even a top 30 centre all time.
Calling him a top 100 hockey player all time is very generous.
Calling him a top 100 hockey player all time is very generous.
filinski77
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- Feb 12, 2017
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You’re right, top-30 is exaggerated. At the same time, saying “top-100 is generous” for a guy that’s 5th all-time in points, 31st all-time in goals, has 7x top-10 Selke finishes (and a win) is likely an even larger exaggeration.
Regardless, my point stands. Francis was twice the player that anyone Ovi had in 2008 was. And that’s without getting into Jagr + the rest.
Hockey Outsider
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I agree with most of this (the main objection is the comment about Francis, which @jigglysquishy already replied to). The other thing that should be mentioned - Lemieux's per-game stats were probably inflated in 1996 because he mostly skipped back-to-back games (and his scoring declined in the relatively few back-to-back games that he actually played). Link
I think Ovechkin clearly had the best season. They were probably roughly even on a per game basis, but that's misleading, because Ovechkin played through everything, while Lemieux chose to give himself more rest.
