Player Discussion: Matt Martin

[crashthenet]

He was probably the best Islander on the ice tonight, really involved with a goal, a fight, got under the Bolts skin, stood up for the team when Nelson was targeted, hit everything that moved and as usual was solid defensively. If Trotz can be blamed for anything in game 2. The ID line was not out with less than a minute to play. They usually are. Big mistake there, cost them the OT atleast.

I don't remember who the JGP line followed but not to have the Czikas line or that hybrid Bailey Lee combo at the end of the period was hard to take.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I don't remember who the JGP line followed but not to have the Czikas line or that hybrid Bailey Lee combo at the end of the period was hard to take.

Been saying it for 2 years now Crash. The ID line is the most dependable defensive line on the team. I would have had them on the ice. Or as you said, the hybrid line. Tough way to lose the game. But we have to wash away that loss, and get ready for Friday. Isles are not out of it yet. Anyone who throws in the towel now should just look at St Louis last year, and when Boston won the Cup in 2011. I recall vividly Tim Thomas making a unbelievable save in game 3 where Montreal was up 2-0, and that save, won them the cup because they came back and won the game and cup.

 

[MJF]

I'd rather he stay but signing him for 4 years would be insane.

Exactly.

 

[MJF]

There's nothing wrong with keeping him if he's $1M per year, but I don't think that's what he'd take and that's my concern. He cannot be paid anywhere near his current salary to make it worthwhile. His salary needs to replace Brassard or Kuhnhackl's to make it worthwhile.

Matt Martin is having an amazing playoff but does this warrant signing him to a multi-year deal at a raise over what he’s making this year? His regular season stats since he returned to the Isles are underwhelming.

 

[MJF]

Start grooming him to replace Butch. Done and Done!

Nobody can replace Butch. It’s like trying to replace Phil Rizzuto.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Matt Martin is having an amazing playoff but does this warrant signing him to a multi-year deal at a raise over what he’s making this year? His regular season stats since he returned to the Isles are underwhelming.

I would offer him 2.5 for one year as a continuation salary if he wants to stay on the Island. Isles priority will be Barzal and Pulock as it should be. Toews, I consider less a priority. The ID line is signed for 1 more year. Cizikas for 2. But not a raise nor a reduction in salary. I am comfortable with this cap hit. This line is better together, and the role they play is more valuable than other teams 4th lines. Especially with how Trotz rolls 4 lines.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Nobody can replace Butch. It’s like trying to replace Phil Rizzuto.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

does this warrant signing him to a multi-year deal at a raise over what he’s making this year?

No. Not even a little. People need to stop getting starry eyed over a handful of games.

 

[PK Cronin]

No. Not even a little. People need to stop getting starry eyed over a handful of games.

Just this playoffs alone we've seen people loving Beauvillier to questioning him.
People have been up and down on Eberle all playoffs.
Lee was criticized early and then was the best thing since slide bread.
Varlamov was unbeatable and doing great, now they question why he's starting or if letting Lehner walk was a mistake.
Toews was doing very well and now he's dog shit we're looking to trade.
Greene was awful, no, wait, he's good, now he's awful again.

Playing the what have you done for me lately can end up hurting a team. Martin is worth $1.5M maximum but preferably closer to $1M and then he can stay. You have to say goodbye sometime. The fourth line will be relied upon less if the top nine is better.

 

[Joedoggy]

Just this playoffs alone we've seen people loving Beauvillier to questioning him.
People have been up and down on Eberle all playoffs.
Lee was criticized early and then was the best thing since slide bread.
Varlamov was unbeatable and doing great, now they question why he's starting or if letting Lehner walk was a mistake.
Toews was doing very well and now he's dog shit we're looking to trade.
Greene was awful, no, wait, he's good, now he's awful again.

Playing the what have you done for me lately can end up hurting a team. Martin is worth $1.5M maximum but preferably closer to $1M and then he can stay. You have to say goodbye sometime. The fourth line will be relied upon less if the top nine is better.

I wouldn't quit your day job....playing agent/Gm takes skills...no disrespect intended

 

[Joedoggy]

Matt Martin is having an amazing playoff but does this warrant signing him to a multi-year deal at a raise over what he’s making this year? His regular season stats since he returned to the Isles are underwhelming.

Disagree ...his Offensive stats playing injured with mates injured say a lot...secondly...the rest of his game including possession numbers/hitting/lack of penalty mins taking stick and other infractions..never mind his on ice presence that sends chills thru Defensive cores/also his for checking/blocking of shots/being the glue guy etc etc...are all overwhelming to people that look at a players abilities overall. I have said this before...same isles team without out #17 did not make the playoffs for 2 years..and have made in far with him back...Tor did not make the playoffs pre Martin...then made it 2 years with Martin...no matter the Bobcock din king the kid year 2 for defending his mate Marner due to Bobcock indiscretions.

Lou brought him to toronto for a reason..brought him back for a reason......and it worked in both cases....Note...the opposite senario occurred with PJ boy...with him Isles did not make the playoffs..Tor did not make the playoffs this year.......OVERWELMING FACTS

 

[MJF]

Disagree ...his Offensive stats playing injured with mates injured say a lot...secondly...the rest of his game including possession numbers/hitting/lack of penalty mins taking stick and other infractions..never mind his on ice presence that sends chills thru Defensive cores/also his for checking/blocking of shots/being the glue guy etc etc...are all overwhelming to people that look at a players abilities overall. I have said this before...same isles team without out #17 did not make the playoffs for 2 years..and have made in far with him back...Tor did not make the playoffs pre Martin...then made it 2 years with Martin...no matter the Bobcock din king the kid year 2 for defending his mate Marner due to Bobcock indiscretions.

Lou brought him to toronto for a reason..brought him back for a reason......and it worked in both cases....Note...the opposite senario occurred with PJ boy...with him Isles did not make the playoffs..Tor did not make the playoffs this year.......OVERWELMING FACTS

It says that without the entire 4th line remaining in tact Martin's production goes down. Then he becomes another dead shift on the ice.

I agree that Lou brought Martin back for a reason and it worked. The change in culture in the room, on the ice has taken hold. Martin has helped change the culture of this team. We are no longer easy to play against. We see it in his teammates. Mat Barzal has finally started to mature in this playoff year. Brock Nelson too.

A team like ours that hurts for offense and has our cap situation does not have the luxury of signing Matt Martin long term and give him a raise. It sucks but it's facts.

 

[Joedoggy]

It says that without the entire 4th line remaining in tact Martin's production goes down. Then he becomes another dead shift on the ice.

I agree that Lou brought Martin back for a reason and it worked. The change in culture in the room, on the ice has taken hold. Martin has helped change the culture of this team. We are no longer easy to play against. We see it in his teammates. Mat Barzal has finally started to mature in this playoff year. Brock Nelson too.

A team like ours that hurts for offense and has our cap situation does not have the luxury of signing Matt Martin long term and give him a raise. It sucks but it's facts.

Moneys will be freed up...players moved....without names...all here can understand 2 for sure...theres money for #17....Then again..if for some reason it does not happen which is highly unlikely..what happens to your thinking if once again the Islanders return to a non playoff team like what happened during his last departure.
This is a team game...the team looks pretty good yet could use a sniper....losing your glue guy makes zero sense....ask Garth he didn't get the contract done...you can bet he would do it diff. if given the chance again... fact is he tried numerous times....Garths finger prints are all over this team in all fairness to him..this move was Garths biggest mistake. Lou will not make the same one....Lou understands when not to pull the trigger also..not making moves just to do so.

Have an eye Dubas looks to reverse the trade he made with Lou getting #17 as a UFA he was a fan fav and glue guy there also...face facts Dubas allowed Martin to return to the island as a favour to the kid after the Bobcock indiscretions to players. Moneys are being freed up in Leaf land i understand...Dubas would look good..another reason Lou gets it done with #17

 

[PK Cronin]

Moneys will be freed up...players moved....without names...all here can understand 2 for sure...theres money for #17....Then again..if for some reason it does not happen which is highly unlikely..what happens to your thinking if once again the Islander return to a non playoff team like what happened during his last departure.
This is a team game...the team looks pretty good yet could use a sniper....losing your glue guy makes zero sense....ask Garth he didn't get the contract done...you can bet he would do it diff. if given the chance again....Garths finger prints are all over this team in all fairness to him..this move was Garths biggest mistake. Lou will not make the same one.

The money isn't there and they aren't moving players out to keep Martin around. You can find a new glue guy to take his place. That's how this works, you don't keep the same players forever simply because they had some success. You're overvaluing what Martin provides and to be quite frank, your playoffs versus non-playoffs is complete nonsense. Martin played slightly more than half of the games in his second season in Toronto and they made the playoffs. They then made the playoffs the next year without him. They would've made the playoffs this year without the pandemic. The Islanders didn't magically win because Martin was brought back. That roster misses the playoffs again without Trotz.

 

[Joedoggy]

The money isn't there and they aren't moving players out to keep Martin around. You can find a new glue guy to take his place. That's how this works, you don't keep the same players forever simply because they had some success. You're overvaluing what Martin provides and to be quite frank, your playoffs versus non-playoffs is complete nonsense. Martin played slightly more than half of the games in his second season in Toronto and they made the playoffs. They then made the playoffs the next year without him. They would've made the playoffs this year without the pandemic. The Islanders didn't magically win because Martin was brought back. That roster misses the playoffs again without Trotz.

Your adding words like magically etc ..and are trying to read what toronto would or would not have done if not for the pandemic.. they could have lost every game due to injury etc ...its like saying the islanders made the playoffs because of the pandemic...thats all crystal ball stuff on your behalf....the 2 year not making the playoffs is fact...maybe you can tell me why the same Isles squad did not make the playoffs then...Shine your crystal ball up good before answering.

Keep the day job...lose the crystal ball.....no ill will intended once again.

BTW..The Glue in glue guys are not obtained by just going out and getting another...its years of playing with defending/befriending and playing with other team mates....spending years together/friendships/trusts and know the glue guy is a team player that you admire and would return the favour his does for mates by the other players......never mind the fact this glue guy helps community and franchise when asked without question....When other players feel they are not the same or compete the same without looking down the bench and seeing their glue guy(#17)...the team is not the same nor are the players....Its my belief due to Martins years of service to mates and team the team is not the same without #17.

 

[PK Cronin]

Your adding words like magically etc ..and are trying to read what toronto would or would not have done if not for the pandemic.. they could have lost every game due to injury etc ...its like saying the islanders made the playoffs because of the pandemic...thats all crystal ball stuff on your behalf....the 2 year not making the playoffs is fact...maybe you can tell me why the same Isles squad did not make the playoffs then...Shine your crystal ball up good before answering.

Keep the day job...lose the crystal ball.....no ill will intended once again

The pandemic likely helped the Islanders more than some other teams, yes.

You're using a team statistic and attributing it to one player. That's nonsense.

The Islanders missed the playoffs because the roster wasn't good and the coaching was awful. We had Ladd, Hickey, Chimera, Quine, Prince, and Gionta on the roster in 2016-17. Beauvillier was a rookie, Hamonic got hurt, Strome was a 30 point player, we had Berube start in 14 games. We had f***ing Connor Jones play as a center in 4 games, who the heck is that?

In 2017-18 Boychuk only played 58 games, Cizikas only 64, de Haan 33, Tanner Fritz played 34 games, Sebastian Aho played 22 games, Alan Quine played 21 games, Brandon Davidson played in 15 games, Christpher Gibson played in 8 games, Chimera regressed.

We never had an established third line during that time, our defense was not good and featured Hickey in the top 4 both years. The coaching was abysmal in both seasons. Capuano would have a November slide every damn year and didn't understand how to coach in the NHL. Do you see him as a head coach somewhere in the NHL right now? Nope. Doug Weight didn't have a clue what defense was at all and just let the guys run and gun for as long as they wanted. I mean, they had a historically bad season in terms of goals against and you're going to sit there and try to say Martin's departure was a big reason for that?

Why don't you start using some information other than team success and failures for evidence of how important Martin is?

 

[Joedoggy]

The pandemic likely helped the Islanders more than some other teams, yes.

You're using a team statistic and attributing it to one player. That's nonsense.

The Islanders missed the playoffs because the roster wasn't good and the coaching was awful. We had Ladd, Hickey, Chimera, Quine, Prince, and Gionta on the roster in 2016-17. Beauvillier was a rookie, Hamonic got hurt, Strome was a 30 point player, we had Berube start in 14 games. We had f***ing Connor Jones play as a center in 4 games, who the heck is that?

In 2017-18 Boychuk only played 58 games, Cizikas only 64, de Haan 33, Tanner Fritz played 34 games, Sebastian Aho played 22 games, Alan Quine played 21 games, Brandon Davidson played in 15 games, Christpher Gibson played in 8 games, Chimera regressed.

We never had an established third line during that time, our defense was not good and featured Hickey in the top 4 both years. The coaching was abysmal in both seasons. Capuano would have a November slide every damn year and didn't understand how to coach in the NHL. Do you see him as a head coach somewhere in the NHL right now? Nope. Doug Weight didn't have a clue what defense was at all and just let the guys run and gun for as long as they wanted. I mean, they had a historically bad season in terms of goals against and you're going to sit there and try to say Martin's departure was a big reason for that?

Why don't you start using some information other than team success and failures for evidence of how important Martin is?

Case closed...unfortunately the ..your way or the highway doesn't cut it at least for me..i have seen you use the same tactic on others time in and out(kinda the Bobcock way..lol)...if i tell you your right will it help?...No ill will intended

Btw...i did not say they were moving players to keep Martin..i said players will be moved..to get a sniper it must be done..moving these players will also make room for others. Thats if they can be moved

 

[PK Cronin]

Case closed...unfortunately the ..your way or the highway doesn't cut it at least for me..i have seen you use the same tactic on others time in and out(kinda the Bobcock way..lol)...if i tell you your right will it help?...No ill will intended

Which tactic is that, using logic and reasoning? Great conversation.

Btw...i did not say they were moving players to keep Martin..i said players will be moved..to get a sniper it must be done..moving these players will also make room for others. Thats if they can be moved

So moving players to make room for a sniper somehow opens up room for keeping Martin too, great explanation. You're right, Dubas should hire you ASAP.

 

[Joedoggy]

Which tactic is that, using logic and reasoning? Great conversation.



So moving players to make room for a sniper somehow opens up room for keeping Martin too, great explanation. You're right, Dubas should hire you ASAP.

Last explanation ....Gm will more likely pick up a sniper on his last few years out the door...this gives more time for the youth to develop...doubtful big bucks will be spent on such type player...this makes cap space to do so say if a Ladd and or a d-man was moved to allow a younger to come up..I think you know this but prefer not to look at it in respect to how this Gm appears to operate.

These guys are shrewd..Lou is shrewd and not stupid to boot...i give him this respect due to past practice and how he operates..just as i gave the same respect to a player like #17...who operates within the game in fine fashion with what is asked of him etc...future performances of either Lou or Martin is all crystal ball stuff...but the likely hood they continue to operate as in the past in more likely than not.

Theres a better chance of forecasting these guys due to their past and present....than a call up...draft pic or even player taken in trade since they have not performed with the team(Squad)...some guys just don't fit...Isles have had Plenty..i need not name names since everyone is trying ..



This was fun and all conversing on the subject but i am in the middle of buffing 4 vehicles so lets call it a day. Aways play nice

 

[Beacon Isles]

Just this playoffs alone we've seen people loving Beauvillier to questioning him.
People have been up and down on Eberle all playoffs.
Lee was criticized early and then was the best thing since slide bread.
Varlamov was unbeatable and doing great, now they question why he's starting or if letting Lehner walk was a mistake.
Toews was doing very well and now he's dog shit we're looking to trade.
Greene was awful, no, wait, he's good, now he's awful again.

Playing the what have you done for me lately can end up hurting a team. Martin is worth $1.5M maximum but preferably closer to $1M and then he can stay. You have to say goodbye sometime. The fourth line will be relied upon less if the top nine is better.

Exactly this... recency bias like you said.

The best deal for the team, is Martin at $1-1.5M per year, no more than 2 years. If someone wants to give him 3 or 4 years, and more per year, we'll miss him, but you have to say bye.

 

[Beacon Isles]

Look at the top teams in the league on capfriendly, and see how much their 4 line is getting paid.

I know our 4th line is atypical, but successful teams dont pay their 4th line $9+M dollars.

 

[PK Cronin]

Last explanation ....Gm will more likely pick up a sniper on his last few years out the door...this gives more time for the youth to develop...doubtful big bucks will be spent on such type player...this makes cap space to do so say if a Ladd and or a d-man was moved to allow a younger to come up..I think you know this but prefer not to look at it in respect to how this Gm appears to operate.

These guys are shrewd..Lou is shrewd and not stupid to boot...i give him this respect due to past practice and how he operates..just as i gave the same respect to a player like #17...who operates within the game in fine fashion with what is asked of him etc...future performances of either Lou or Martin is all crystal ball stuff...but the likely hood they continue to operate as in the past in more likely than not.

Theres a better chance of forecasting these guys due to their past and present....than a call up...draft pic or even player taken in trade since they have not performed with the team(Squad)...some guys just don't fit...Isles have had Plenty..i need not name names since everyone is trying ..



This was fun and all conversing on the subject but i am in the middle of buffing 4 vehicles so lets call it a day. Aways play nice

You're just talking and not providing any substance. How much money and term are you okay signing Martin for? What snipers near the end of their deals are you interested in?

I know Lamoriello would likely prefer to keep Martin, but it's the cost that's the issue. They aren't going to be able to move Ladd or a defenseman and re-sign Martin for what he's making now, there's still not enough room. There's currently $8.9M in cap space and they need to sign at least three players to get to 23 on the roster. We have three RFAs coming up, Barzal, Toews, and Pulock. Even subtracting the largest defensive cap hit we have in Boychuk, we only end up with $14.9M in space. How exactly is Lamoriello going to sign those three players, bring in a sniper like you want, and re-sign Martin at or around his current price? I conservatively estimate Barzal making $6.5M, Toews $2.5M, and $5M for Pulock, and we're at $14M already. Ladd could be swapped for someone like Parise, but that's a wash in terms of money (it actually costs more) so another player would also have to be moved in order to keep Martin.

You're looking at:

Lee Barzal Eberle
Beauvillier Nelson Bailey
Parise Pageau Komarov
Martin Cizikas Clutterbuck
Dal Colle Johnston

Pelech Pulock
Toews Mayfield
Leddy Dobson
Hickey

And this roster would be over the cap. I'd like for him to stay but the cap is too tight to dedicate any considerable amount of money or term to him. That's just the reality of the situation. Maybe Lamoriello finds a way to free up a bunch of money but I'm not sure he'll pull off any miracles.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

If he wants more than 1 year, you say goodbye.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

 

[YearlyLottery]

If he wants more than 1 year, you say goodbye.

Yes. I remember you brought this up regarding Eberle last year and Marian Gaborik years ago when he tore it up for the Kings to win the Cup. You cannot pay a player more than he is worth simply due to playoff production.

Anything more than $1.5 and 1 year and he should not be resigned.